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Security/Privacy and New Linden Homes

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Gryphon Ronas said:

What metrics would they have had available?  The people who opposed it were the only ones saying anything. The rest were just using the tools available to them.

I think your estimation of the decision process is overly optimistic.

Every time someone puts up his Ban Line, that becomes data. Every single time someone opens up a ticket, that becomes data. Everything posted in their forums also becomes data. Every suggestion they ever got, also becomes data. Etc, etc... Trust me, they do have plenty of info concerning what the majority of the community wants, imho. I sincerely doubt they merely went with a creative impulse, and see where the chips may fall.

But, I stand by what I said earlier: Poll it and end this nonsense about what the majority does or does not want. Simple as that.

Edited by Marsellus Walcott
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I understand the Lab's desire to build communities, that feel friendly and warm. They want people to meet, hang with their  neighbors.  Hey ban lines can be turned off if you want people to drop by. The continent is beautiful and the houses are so much nicer than the older ones, I'll give LL Kudos for that.  I took a house there.  I spent ten minutes cycling through the house choices and then furnished it.  Now its up for grabs, because I gave it right back.  I'll just save that 1024 to buy regular mainland that *I* have control over.  Sadly this community they want and the reality of how so many are in SL, isn't going to work to our satisfaction. My comment is based on years of experience in SL and knowing what the general public in SL does.  I really do not have a lot of faith in this "approved" orb.  I have a feeling that its going to have a small range, and a overly generous time to allow crossing.  The whole time people are violating your privacy, reading/listening to your conversation, peeping on you.  They have essentially created a mainland HOA .  The house I had, was next to a road.  My feeling is, if you can walk, or get down that road in some manner, then you have no business crossing others parcels on the way anyway. It just makes it feel like a benefit from what you are paying for is less desirable.  In my case, so much so, I gave up my Linden home.

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Posted (edited)

"I'll just save that 1024 to buy regular mainland that *I* have control over. "

Go ahead, and tell me what you pay for the land with open ocean access, roads outside your house, NO skyboxes and crap below 2000 meters, and a well landscaped and thought out area with a lot more to come.

If you find that for less than 25,000 $L, you still will have a sky full of crap, neighbors with weird housing tastes, and of course your beloved ban lines.

The best part is the self selection process LL has started here, by freeing the new continent of those who love ban lines. :)

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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I have a boat, I have sailed on the Blake Sea, because really that's what those places are meant for.  I do understand all of that. But whether a Linden Home is cheap or not, its still part of a paid package and should have the same security options as mainland anywhere else.  If ban lines cause the problems you listed, then perhaps the sims should be designed in such a way that there is clearance   As you say, its for these people who drive and sail, but many won't, so they have to put up with restrictions to suit those who do.  So really it works both ways

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23 hours ago, Gryphon Ronas said:

Also...  Not having ban lines so people can get around is great I guess.  I never had a problem on Mainland but I suppose some did.  Closed parcels are no problem if you are not flying at treetop level and buzzing rooftops.  The problem is that unlike Mainland, there are no rez areas on the roads or waterways.  If you want to rez a boat, you have to have a houseboat - but oops, those were gone within hours.  While water access is limited in some ways to the privileged few in RL, at least there are public launch ramps and marinas.

Perhaps some kind Houseboaters will put out temporary use boat-rezzers, if that's allowed or possible?

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Let's not beat around  the bush here, the one thing I've not seen mentioned yet is that this mainland will encourage new users to stay. They can easily wander around, they can fly, they can explore,  they can meet the residents, make friends. The one complaint that I've heard time and again from new users is that sl feels empty. The mainland is a huge barren waste of land pocked with a homes completely blocked off by ban lines. If you open up the event fi der the first things you see advertised are empty sex clubs or clubs full of bots. Sl is not new user friendly. These new continents with there newer exploration friendly terms and hoa feel will help to retain those new users which means more money for LL and more money for creators which goes back into creating and keeping SL alive. 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Marsellus Walcott said:

Every time someone puts up his Ban Line, that becomes data. Every single time someone opens up a ticket, that becomes data. Everything posted in their forums also becomes data. Every suggestion they ever got, also becomes data. Etc, etc... Trust me, they do have plenty of info concerning what the majority of the community wants, imho. I sincerely doubt they merely went with a creative impulse, and see where the chips may fall.

But, I stand by what I said earlier: Poll it and end this nonsense about what the majority does or does not want. Simple as that.

I have to agree, the data was there for LL to check and see who was doing what.  Remember, LL really can see everything that we do and don't do.  With that said, after reading this very long thread, many appear to support the removal of banlines.  I admit, I'm in the majority who think that banlines should be a thing of the past. 

Yes, there is a ban list to implement for keeping people who want to pester, out.  There is going to be orbs that are approved, so you do have security, along with skyboxes permitted over 2500m for added privacy. In my opinion, LL has found a solid balance for us, for these homes.  If someone feels though that this is not for them, there is many other options.  There is the older LL homes (though they are getting phased out, though not sure when), there is the mainland where you can get land at reasonable prices and you set it up how you want it, along with several agencies that have rentals that are very secluded, private and secure.  Abnor Mole said it perfectly earlier in this thread; this is an option, though it may not be for everyone, so there are other options out there that are available.

Edited by Vega Firelyte
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Posted (edited)

The Linden Homes are a perk of membership but so is 1024 tier free.  As I don't particularly care for the Linden Homes for a  lot of reasons (mostly architecture), this is, for me, just another reason not to want one.  Better to buy on the mainland and not have to be concerned about any of this.  Mainland is not that expensive, I bought a 1024 for 400L not that long ago.  To each his own.

But I will say, there are few things more satisfying than being in your living room reading the various chat groups, and having the security globe tell you that someone tried to pop in, even though you are far from a living soul, and been instantly kicked home, wherever in hell their home may be.  Instant ban just feels good.  It's like locking the door.  You don't have to let everyone in and then kick them out and lock the door after them.  This way they just don't come in in the first place and folks don't approve of that, unfortunate to be them.

Edited by ArgontheDevil Ormega
needed a better word.

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Posted (edited)

I notice something interesting about this discussion--and its many other iterations on these forums. The people who focus on open travel and oppose things like ban lines and zero or near-zero security orbs focus on overall improvement for everyone. We talk about industries and activities that affect lots of people beyond ourselves. That's why we talk about activities like GTFO and industries like boat/air/ground vehicle makers. 

The people who want their ban lines focus only on themselves. You hear statements about "my rights" and "I paid tier" and "I had this bad experience." But no consideration of the overall user base beyond speculation that the majority of users agree with them even though that seems fairly unclear. That is why I refer to people of this persuasion collectively as the "me me me" people. It's a short way of referring to the people whose focus is only on their individual wants. 

Allow me to address this to the few people who are objecting, including Madonna Milena, Blush Bravin, Gryphon Ronas, and Ethan Paslong: It is not about you. 

From the numbers I see when logging in, Second Life typically has between 40,000 and 50,000 users logged in at one time. An article I read not long ago stated that Second Life has 600,000 active accounts. Linden Labs is a fairly small company that has to manage the needs of all those people and the only way they can possibly have any success at that is to manage what is under their control, i.e., the mainland, to serve the needs of as many people as possible. They do this by trying to forge compromises. In this case, you don't get ban lines. But you do get an orb. If you want to address this in a way that is relevant to Linden Labs, then you need to start talking about what is best for big chunks of the user base and you need to do it with facts. 

Right now we see a bunch of happy people and a few unhappy ones, many of whom are making a patently false claims that LL is taking away their ability to manage privacy on their land. Why is that claim false? Because you still have a ban list. You still have power to eject. You still have a security orb. You still have the right to control access to your land. If you want to make a cogent argument for why that is not adequate for chunks of the user base, go ahead. That's how we can all make progress as a community and it is how we can harness controversy to the greater good of all.

But I would suggest the following:

  • Acknowledge reality. These posts that LL is taking away the ability to protect land privacy are false to the point of being silly. LL has specifically said you will have a ban list and a security orb. If there's some reason that's inadequate, come forward with it. But quit pretending those features don't (and won't) exist. 
  • Talk about the community, not just yourself. There are bad things that happen to individuals. That does not and cannot form the basis of continent-wide or grid-wide policy because a bad situation for one individual cannot interfere with the usage of 599,999 other people.
  • Don't engage in victim hood. I'm a woman too (yes, in both SL and RL!) and I started my first account on July 25, 2006. I own multiple parcels, all with open rez, none with any security devices at all, and I have ended up with a grand total of . . . zero people banned. I'm not sure I've ever had to ban anyone in all my years. It's insulting to me as a woman to hear these accusations of this being able victim blaming and women being told that we asked for it. That is an issue about a different topic that has nothing to do with this issue. Same with posts about how your opinion isn't welcome in this thread. 
  • Keep your comparisons fair. The issue at hand is people passing by. Flyers. Boaters. Drivers. People like that who get interference from ban lines. Comparing traffic passing by to people coming into your house and demanding a meal or someone standing in your garden masturbating is not a remotely fair comparison.
  • Consider the needs of the other side. Some of us who have talked to Linden Lab would really love to see all ban lines and orbs eliminated grid wide (I'd love that!). None of us in the group I'm part of have ever even suggested that to Linden Lab. Why? Because we understand that there are concerns and privacy issues affecting the other side. So we try to come up with compromises where people worried about privacy can have their privacy, without interfering with other users' use of the grid for other legitimate purposes. 

If you'd consider taking an approach like this, you'd probably find yourself listened to more and you'd be making a great contribution to the grid! But if all you have to say is that you just want something different because of your private personal preferences, then I suggest giving thanks for the fact that SL has places that cater to all budgets and tastes. Go to the place that caters to yours. I think you will find many private estates where your desire for isolation can readily be catered to. Going to the mainland, which is the most connected part of the entire grid, is probably not the place to be if you don't want people around you. 

 

Edited by Female Winslet
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1 hour ago, Monty Walworth said:

I have a boat, I have sailed on the Blake Sea, because really that's what those places are meant for.  I do understand all of that. But whether a Linden Home is cheap or not, its still part of a paid package and should have the same security options as mainland anywhere else. [...]

Why should it? It's a different product completely.

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14 minutes ago, ArgontheDevil Ormega said:

The Linden Homes are a perk of membership but so is 1024 tier free.  As I don't particularly care for the Linden Homes for a  lot of reasons (mostly architecture), this is, for me, just another reason not to want one.  Better to buy on the mainland and not have to be concerned about any of this.  Mainland is not that expensive, I bought a 1024 for 400L not that long ago.  To each his own.

But I will say, there are few things more satisfying than being in your living room reading the various chat groups, and having the security globe tell you that someone tried to pop in, even though you are far from a living soul, and been instantly kicked home, wherever in hell their home may be.  Instant ban just feels good.  It's like locking the door.  You don't have to let everyone in and then kick them out and lock the door after them.  This way they just don't come in in the first place and folks don't approve of that, unfortunate to be them.

The spandex is a little chafey, though, I find.

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3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Why should it? It's a different product completely.

You have to maintain premium to continue having the linden home and land, just like you have to maintain tier to keep mainland or private region land.  Its closer to land ownership than it is not.  Private region owners often give land at no charge for the tier, but you still have to pay for it or lose it.  There are a number of other limitations that come with Linden homes too, like no teraforming.  The ban of ban lines is just another. 

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6 hours ago, Ai Austin said:

Excellent improvements. Thanks.

I wonder if the home contents pack could include a controlled lighting item(s)... maybe toggled off/soft/bright via the home control panel?

I make some scripts if you like, hit me up one day I'll toss them to you. I use some in a CHI ceiling fan and it's awesome!

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, IthilwenRose said:

Yet at the same time, it would be great if some of those features, like not being able to chat to someone in the parcel or see that they're there unless you're in the parcel would be nice. A security orb that is perhaps programmed into the mailbox could be nice as well. 

You will still be able to set the parcel so that anyone outside of it cannot see you or hear chat.  There will be a supplied security orb that will be added to the content pack that is in the mailbox/buoy.  It will have some limitations built into it around how quickly someone can be booted and how much area it can cover.

 

 

3 hours ago, Monty Walworth said:

They have essentially created a mainland HOA .  

100% correct - and that actually was their intention.  It already had a covenant saying what you could and could not do.  They have simply added to it.  Private regions do it also. 

If you want true full control of your land/home, then use your Premium 1024 tier for regular Mainland.  You already know this.

 

2 hours ago, Monty Walworth said:

But whether a Linden Home is cheap or not, its still part of a paid package and should have the same security options as mainland anywhere else.  

Not necessarily.  LL makes the rules here.  They offer you two options for land with your Premium membership:  Get a Linden House (and abide by the stated covenant) or go apply your 1024 tier to a piece of regular mainland.  

 

The covenant on these Linden Homes, outside of the ban line / security orb restriction are actually far, far more lenient than the old Linden Homes.  Over there, you are much more restricted in what can be placed outside your home and no skyboxes at all.

 

In case it was missed before:  LL makes the rules.  If you don't like the Linden Home rules, there really are other home options in SL.  If you are pissy enough about it, then feel free to spend your entire SLife being ticked off and complaining all the time.  It sure isn't going to change my SLife any.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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Okay so one of the compromises i proposed was doing so that wouldn't impede the roads, the traveling, and the open ocean ways. I can't say for the houseboats but what I've noticed with the traditional house options is that the parcels are laid out in a way where the ease of travel is not a concern. The parcels do not extend to over into streets, roads, or even sidewalks. My parcel that I finally got this evening starts behind the hedges linden labs already had out so it's already behind natural barriers. The only concern for travel is really air travel and from what i recall, ban lines do not extend all the way up into the upper sky from what i remember with the old linden homes (that are going to be phased out). I will go online and double check private region parcel i have and then the mainland parcel my partner has.

So my suggestion for the air travel since that seems to be the only real concern:

1. If the ban lines do stop at x-height have from that height to say the next 1000 meters be considered air space.

2. If the ban lines do NOT stop in height: If it's possible to code into the server that the ban lines only extend up to X height. Really 500 meters should be more than enough for just the ground level.

Although now that I think about it, if the parcel is restricting access then yes that would keep someone who isn't trying to invade that is just flying around into incidents. Let me acknowledge that at this time I don't have a great solution for air travel and I will try and rack my brain for a possible solution for that. Though I will admit my experience with air travel has been tremulous at best in even a series of sims that allowed for air travel with no ban lines in place but I do understand people with better computers may well enjoy the experience. My experience with it was when I was in a lower end machine and found it to be lacking in enjoyment due to a series of lag related issues with flying.

Now as for the cosmetic look of ban lines that people find an eyesore (myself included) Some viewers already have the option where you can derender banlines. Perhaps hard code that into SL official viewer itself if it isn't already. Then no one has to look at the eyesores.

 

As for why the ban list and the orbs aren't enough. People will circumvent it and there have been others giving examples of how they've experienced people getting around the ban list (making a new character for griefing/trolling) and then an orb itself is only limited so far in range. If instead, they can just pre-emptively make their space private for when they want it private and then open it up for when they are feeling social. Again with how the parcels are set up, this does not stop people from exploring these neighborhoods by ground.

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Like I said in my post, there are still ways around a security orb versus the security of a no entry unless you're on access list hard-coded into the land parcels or an allowed group. I'm looking forward to seeing what the orbs that will be given out will do. I'm half playing devil's advocate since I am really hoping nothing more than the orbs will be required. It's more having the option for if the orbs aren't enough to be able to have that to fall back on.

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4 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

The obvious metrics would be to look at usage of orbs and banlines on mainland. If I recall correctly from the wiki article about 10-5% with only a tiny minority of them set aggressively under a minute.

So then 90-95% of the land is banline and orb-free?

So what's the big problem with them existing?  Sounds' like they're kind of rare.

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6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

1. An orb will handle more than 300 people.

2. I don't know. I would hope 20 seconds at least.

LL appear to be concerned about making a community a bit like the successful private areas attached to mainland the Seychelles, USS Sims, Fairchang, that all have bans on banlines and restrictions on orbs. Rather than going down routes they have been down before which appear from your experience to have been beset by griefers.

Constantine Linden originally said 60 seconds for the orbs to eject. That will give people enough time to A. NOTICE that they are about to be ejected and B. Find their way off your property without being booted back home or losing their airplane/car/ect. And 60 seconds really isn't that long to wait for someone to be removed. Plus, if you need to remove a griefer faster, you can add their name to your ban list and they will be automatically removed, no wait. 

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2 hours ago, Gryphon Ronas said:

So then 90-95% of the land is banline and orb-free?

So what's the big problem with them existing?  Sounds' like they're kind of rare.

Because they disrupt travel without warning and as a consequence affect neighbouring landowners investments, devaluing their property.

The only sense of community that aggressive orbing and banlines generate is a community aggrieved at the individual using them.

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This move makes me want to find a ruinway and step i  a plane or helicopter after years. Only simborders are still killers.

The no banline rule need to be on whole mainland.

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as a house with a small parcel isn´t sufficient for me  I´m curious wether the other mainland parts will receive these ground textures at some point (or...an update... please?)

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51 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

 

it explained totally nothing because a Mole isnt a Linden, ánd the crux is in the bolded part in your quote: would probably  ...means most likely but not sure.
 

Actually, they work with the Lindens.  Also, if you bothered to go to the meetings, you would know that the Guardians, who enforce the rules, are reasonable people as well.  How about giving them some credit for having enough brains to know that someone was just being a peeping tom and filing that jerk AR where it belongs, in the circular filing cabinet.

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great thing about these forumposts in this section is it gving a nice list of names to put on the parcel banlist.. ( as you know with banlines till 5000m )

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Posted (edited)

Here's how I see it with regard to the new Bellesaria Linden Homes: Everything in SL, including SL itself, is "Take it or leave it, no in-betweens".

For simplicity-of-understanding reasons, I'll just describe the two camps as "Pro-Banline" and "Anti-Banline".

The Pro-Banliners say they want the status quo, the be able to use any and all security features a typical mainland parcel offers. I get it. So now there is this new place where those will not be available and hence, there is a big debate between the pro-banliners and the anti-banliners - both sides, I believe, *do* have reasonable and compelling arguments on their side of the debate.

But here is why the anti-banliners will win this one: The pro-banliners can have their way anywhere else on the entire grid, including many private estates and, most certainly, anywhere on the entirety of "mainland". Wanting it here simply becomes status quo, same smell, different day. The reason the anti-banliners will win this one is that

  1. Doing (allowing) the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity.
  2. IT IS DIFFERENT; it is a fresh new smell on a new day.
  3. Many of us will never, ever "rent" from another resident for our own reasons and that leaves us stuck with the status quo.
  4. We finally have our own playbox with the color of sand we've always wanted, officially endorsed and enforced.

So, pro-banliners can take it or leave it because you have the entirety of the entire rest of the grid to practice and exercise your wants. Please do not force your selfish wants onto those of us who do not want your wants in our one and only little corner where we can finally have what we want. Our ideas should not be forced upon you and neither should yours be forced upon us. You have the rest of SL grid to have it your way. At least allow us a place to have it our way.

If you absolutely insist that the compromise that Linden Lab is proffering (a security orb that can only be configured in a responsible way) is not sufficient for you, then please go out into the great big world-wide choice called "the rest of the grid".

Edited by Alyona Su
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30 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

as you know with banlines till 5000m

You may want to check the height of those banlines you love so much.  They have been lower by quite a bit now.  The reason the planes fly at 150-200m is because the banlines are just under 100m .  Over in Satori, Jeogeot, and Sansara, where it's been checked, they were gone at the higher heights.  The issue now is the roads and waterways and I'm hoping in time, those banlines are removed as well.  

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