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Security/Privacy and New Linden Homes

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2 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

There is no need

there is clearly a need, otherwise people wouldn't ask for it.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Ethan Paslong said:

there is clearly a need, otherwise people wouldn't ask for it.

So, if a group of people asks for something, it's automatically a need?

And don't forget, you literally asked for this...

On 4/8/2019 at 10:10 AM, Ethan Paslong said:

i don't mind what the costs in any way are, if any,  but only use the possibilities a landowner on the mainland has , and thats in this case .. his land his rules, and as long that's not changing people can do that. If moles putting those obelisks with those txts is great but everybody can ignore those, if LL want that as guidelines for mainland, they should publish it at the official blogs and website.
If you want to fly over, use the map and stay over roads, if you end in a banline as pilot .. you'r simply too low..and if you drive a car and can't keep on the roads.. train your skills in controlling your vehicle. There is no reason to be on anybody elses land without approval.
Plan your route, ask the owners you'll gonna meet on the way upfront, you'll see the doors will open more smoothly.
 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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The extra prims and community design are not "free", there is a cost and that cost is the Covenant and rules that are attached. As for catering to those whose complaint is the lack of (one) security feature the proper method is clear: If in a restaurant and one table complains about the activities of a second table, then you offer to move the complaining table to another location and allow the second table to continue their activities, unbothered or interrupted as long as they aren't breaking any rules. 

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The idea of a neighborhood, being able to drive around, have the water surround sounds awesome. I never use to use ban lines or orbs until someone entered my home undressing my prim babies, yes they may only be pixels, but made me think why would someone do that, the person thought there was again no one home and i caught him come straight into my babies room.

If people enter your home uninvited, what is there to stop them from using your home for their own entertainment. Why not just have the ability to lock our windows and doors. That people if they try to TP that also is turned off. You may only TP to your own home from another sim or be invited in by teleport. There would not be any unsightly orbs or ban lines. Locking your windows and doors work fine in real why not in SL?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, OriannaBladeQueen said:

Locking your windows and doors work fine in real why not in SL?

Because people can bypass windows and doors by zooming directly into the home and sit on furniture in sl. Virtual worlds have alot more limitations then the real world. 

Some objects are still operable from a distance so griefers can still access menus from afar and don't even have to be in the home

BTW windows and doors can be set on the the linden homes to only work for the owner, meaning if they are closed only the owner can open them. 

Edited by Lisa006 Baxton
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1 hour ago, Lisa006 Baxton said:

Because people can bypass windows and doors by zooming directly into the home and sit on furniture in sl.

Majority of the furniture out there now have the option of setting permissions for owner, group or open.  If you set it up with owner or group access only, it will prohibit people from sitting on your furniture.  It's usually somewhere in the menu, marked "Access" in most furniture.  That does help add some more security to your home as well, when it's set up for access for only certain people.

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3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

cost is the Covenant and rules that are attached.

Unfortunately, the rules got changed after people had already moved in. Some after having paid a full year for premium and some after selling their mainland properties so they could use their 1024 on one of the new Linden homes.

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

If in a restaurant and one table complains about the activities of a second table, then you offer to move the complaining table to another location and allow the second table to continue their activities, unbothered or interrupted as long as they aren't breaking any rules. 

Two groups enter an restaurant noting the rules on the door as they enter. After being seated and receiving their appetizers the owner announces over the loud speaker, we will be playing classical music the rest of the evening. Those who don't like classical music are appalled having walked into a 50s style diner expecting classic rock and roll. The ones that were complaining that they didn't like the rock music applaud the decision. Those who liked the rock music are told by the manager that if they don't like the change they may go eat in the parking lot. The complainers who got their way, cheer and suggest that the parking lot is bigger so why should they complain that the best part is now controlled by those who were complaining in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Unfortunately, the rules got changed after people had already moved in. Some after having paid a full year for premium and some after selling their mainland properties so they could use their 1024 on one of the new Linden homes.

While I am happy with the change (I never use ban lines or orbs and have only banned a few people in over a decade -- and that was at MOSP and not my personal plots) I do agree that The Lab should have thought a bit further ahead on the security issues and foreseen the problem.  They do sometimes still (getting better) miss the big picture and "living in world" points.   

 

Meanwhile folks seem to be visiting my house when I am not there or at least opening doors. I don't have a big problem with this. No sex furniture LOL so they can't do anything lewd.  They COULD just learn how to cam better :D.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

While I am happy with the change (I never use ban lines or orbs and have only banned a few people in over a decade -- and that was at MOSP and not my personal plots) I do agree that The Lab should have thought a bit further ahead on the security issues and foreseen the problem.  They do sometimes still (getting better) miss the big picture and "living in world" points.   

 

Meanwhile folks seem to be visiting my house when I am not there or at least opening doors. I don't have a big problem with this. No sex furniture LOL so they can't do anything lewd.  They COULD just learn how to cam better :D.  

 

I can live with the change. I would rather be able to turn an 10 sec. orb on and off when needed, I'm pretty sure that the LL supplied orb won't have that ability, but as I said I'll deal with it. My comments are mostly made on behalf of those who are very upset with the change. I am still a fan of the Lab. There's not much they could do to change my mind about their abilities or motives. I agree that this decision might have been short sighted, but I trust that they will do what is best for Second Life and by translation that will be what's best for me too. But they have to have all the facts and to understand the deep resentment that this has caused in a good portion of the population, so I speak up. 

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11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

deep resentment that this has caused in a good portion of the population

I have not encountered anyone (except a few on the forum) upset by the lack of ban lines. Have you encountered quite a few inworld? I wonder what the proportion is...if there really is a "good portion of the population" with deep resentment, so would welcome your feedback.

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I have not encountered anyone (except a few on the forum) upset by the lack of ban lines. Have you encountered quite a few inworld? I wonder what the proportion is...if there really is a "good portion of the population" with deep resentment, so would welcome your feedback.

I've heard it both in-world and on the forums.

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

I've heard it both in-world and on the forums.

I think most don't have an issue with the ban lines being removed as long as they can use orbs that will protect their whole parcel from ground to sky with a decent warning time. Most I've talked with think that a minute is just too long.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I have not encountered anyone (except a few on the forum) upset by the lack of ban lines. Have you encountered quite a few inworld? I wonder what the proportion is...if there really is a "good portion of the population" with deep resentment, so would welcome your feedback.

One of the fundamental principles underpinning good, functional communities is being able to accommodate those, even when they are in a small minority, who have different expectations, perspectives, and practices. It's easy to be a community when everybody thinks alike: the real challenge, and test, is in finding compromises or solutions that respect both the wishes of the majority (if there is, in fact, a "majority"), and minorities.

There's been a great deal of reference to the importance of creating community here, from both LL and the anti-ban line set. I'd like to see more recognition from both, generally, that this must necessarily involve accommodating those who don't subscribe to the same definition of what that means. If this is really about building coherent communities, that recognition and accommodation is an absolute requirement: otherwise, it's merely one ideological perspective winning out over another.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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The only security related complaint I've encountered since the ban lines went away is " OMFG WTF Is that giant red flashing sphere thing" .. Spoiler, it's a hyper aggressive security orb that pops up a 64M sphere when tripped.

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24 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I would rather be able to turn an 10 sec. orb

I myself don't think 10 seconds is long enough. These are pretty small parcels, and that's probably enough time for most vehicles to traverse them, but there are other issues too. I had a very recent experience with an orb that was set for 10 seconds on a sim that included residential areas very near a common road: it was by no means clear that the area I'd entered was, or even could be, "private," and it was nearly 10 seconds before I even noticed the notification. I ended up being TPed home.

Of course, one solution to that might have been to set the orb to eject me but not send me all the way home. I really do not understand the point of that: it seems to me purely punitive.

The devil is in the details, of course. It might take some trial and error, and negotiation, to find an optimal warning interval.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Unfortunately, the rules got changed after people had already moved in.

And in that very covenant, it specifically says "Subject to change..."

"...told by the manager that if they don't like the change they may go eat in the parking lot." - Don't be silly. You and I and everyone else know very well that would not be the case. The actual result would be "(if something as trivial as the music bothers you, you may leave and not have to pay anything." - Premium membership gives you the same 1024 m2 no matter where on the grid it is.

Edited by Alyona Su
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8 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

The only security related complaint I've encountered since the ban lines went away is " OMFG WTF Is that giant red flashing sphere thing" .. Spoiler, it's a hyper aggressive security orb that pops up a 64M sphere when tripped.

Hilarious and unnecessary. Might this indicate something along the lines of over-compensation for some other *coughs* personal shortcoming?

On my RL street, which is in my downtown and has the sidewalk running directly alongside it, someone used to own a car that they parked every night by the curb. It had a security sensor that was tripped when anyone walked within about 2 metres of it, which, in practice, meant that it was tripped anytime anyone walked by on the sidewalk. The alert featured a recording of a hyper-masculine voice demanding that we "Step back from the car!"

I'm not easily driven to violence, but it was all I could do to stop myself from arming myself with a baseball bat whenever I stepped out to go the corner store.

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53 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

 

23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I think most don't have an issue with the ban lines being removed as long as they can use orbs that will protect their whole parcel from ground to sky with a decent warning time. Most I've talked with think that a minute is just too long.

I concur with this. Though "to the sky" may be a bit over-the-top" (no pun intended LOL)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I have not encountered anyone (except a few on the forum) upset by the lack of ban lines. Have you encountered quite a few inworld? I wonder what the proportion is...if there really is a "good portion of the population" with deep resentment, so would welcome your feedback.

One of the fundamental principles underpinning good, functional communities is being able to accommodate those, even when they are in a small minority, who have different expectations, perspectives, and practices.

Totally agree regarding trying to accommodate all people as best we can and not base decisions on 'majority rule'. But, what do we do when the majority and minority conflict to the point that there can be little compromise -- those are the tricky areas, and sometimes the best course of action is to go with the majority as less harm is inflicted overall.
And, something we need to pay attention to in SL, is that sometimes a very vocal minority will complain so much that it seems the problem is bigger than it is or that it affects many more people than it does -- the result is that changes might be made that negatively affect the largest segment of the population unfairly.
Case in point, just one person suggested on the Jira that a change could be made regarding the display of sales dates and it was implemented! Most others did not welcome the change and thought it was a waste of resources (perhaps not the best example as the reason given for the change was that they simply thought it was a good idea as opposed to 'going' with a minority vote).

A better example of my own with a touch of irony: I repeatedly reported a mainland resident who kept shoving a big prim over my customer's land I was trying to landscape. At some point in the future the ability for one avatar to rez big prims in the vicinity of another avatar was eliminated, and while that solved the griefing problem it caused me to have to rebuild many of my skyboxes that used big prims as my demos would not rez for customers since the big prims intersected them! Now I seriously doubt it was only me that caused the change, and most likely big prims were being used as griefing tools all over the grid, but I always wondered if I created this disaster for myself with my excess reporting of a griefer on this one frustrating day. lol

Edited by Luna Bliss

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53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I myself don't think 10 seconds is long enough. These are pretty small parcels, and that's probably enough time for most vehicles to traverse them, but there are other issues too. I had a very recent experience with an orb that was set for 10 seconds on a sim that included residential areas very near a common road: it was by no means clear that the area I'd entered was, or even could be, "private," and it was nearly 10 seconds before I even noticed the notification. I ended up being TPed home.

Of course, one solution to that might have been to set the orb to eject me but not send me all the way home. I really do not understand the point of that: it seems to me purely punitive.

The devil is in the details, of course. It might take some trial and error, and negotiation, to find an optimal warning interval.

I totally support the removal of TPing home. I agree it punitive. But I disagree that 10 seconds is not long enough for a parcel that's only 1024. If it were a larger parcel then yes, 10 might not be long enough. But we are talking about 1024s for now and eventually there will also be 512s. I've not heard any Linden suggest that larger size parcels are in the plans. So 10 seconds IMO is good.

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34 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I really do not understand the point of that: it seems to me purely punitive.

It's been a while since I have used orbs, as I got lazy with the old linden homes being the same shape as your land you controlled and I have only recently owned one again. I can only speak for myself, but here is why I have used TP home in the past:

  • Idiots.
  • Griefers/Copybot era.
  • Determined stalkers.
  • Pretty much anyone that decided it would be fun or productive to harass a security orb knowing that it spams its owner with them pretty much spam bouncing off of it.

(If I say "you" it's not directed at who I have quoted, but a general "you/anyone" )

In the past, when I have been building and someone is bouncing off of my orb, spamming me, I will switch it to TP them home and (hopefully) farther away than just outside the radius so that it makes their little game harder. No, I don't want to pause at that moment and add them to a ban list or message the estate owner to put them on the list. I was actually being nice by not locking my land down with ban lines (this was when I had an island in a community) and only set my orb around my work area and around my house, allowing neighbors to use my water. You actually had to either step all the way on land to even get to my house in the center or fly up to where my work plat was.

I've also done it when I have gone offline if there was already a precedence (like my stalker or when copybotters were rampant).  Again, I was trying to be nice and use an orb, but if someone thinks its entertaining to see how many times they can get ejected just to step forward and get flung repeatedly, I am going to make their game harder by punting them home.

I can understand once, maybe twice (i've tried driving in lag, its not fun) bouncing off someone's orb because of lag or learning. Although, in the traditional HOA neighborhoods, there is enough space between the road and the lawn that if you're bouncing off of the same orb, get off of the sidewalk! From what I understand, the houseboat areas do not have that large of a buffer between private and Linden land. So speaking only about the traditional area, after the third+ time, you're lost or lagging or annoying the orb's owner purposely* and a TP home might be more beneficial in that case.  (*even if they are offline, that spam is either hitting their email or waiting to pounce when they log in)

 

Unfortunately, as far as I know, orbs can't separate between repeat offenders with less than polite intentions and someone frustratingly trying to learn to drive in lag. I wish they could. I do feel for those innocently caught in the crossfire between a land owner/renter and some annoying dunce. I have been suddenly TP'd home myself, but instead of being annoyed at the orb owner, I remember the reasons I have switched from Eject, to TP, to just full out locking my land down with banlines.

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4 hours ago, Lisa006 Baxton said:

Because people can bypass windows and doors by zooming directly into the home and sit on furniture in sl. Virtual worlds have alot more limitations then the real world. 

Some objects are still operable from a distance so griefers can still access menus from afar and don't even have to be in the home

That could be fixed. What if sitting and touching only worked if there was a clear line of sight between avatar and touch point? (The simulator knows how to check that. See "llCastRay".) Then an unauthorized person could not get through a locked door by camming and sitting. Locked doors would work.

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there are many ways to get your avatar inside a closed space, once you rule out cam sitting or rezzing, the easiest being to just fly or fall into it really fast (lets just pretend that scripted objects aren't a thing)

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touchtesteropen.thumb.jpg.5cc4b6310ea8cfb158b80cd92823643e.jpg

Buttons and controls can easily be made more secure. The brass pyramid has a check for a clear line of sight.

touchtesterclosed.thumb.jpg.87948cb61a8c04bf48e878efdafa3550.jpg

The door is closed and the avatar is outside. Even though I've cammed inside the building, touching the pyramid won't work.

This should be a standard feature on buttons which do anything important.

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