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MBeatrix

What's up with sim crossings?

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Relogging after a failed TP and freeze, I got a message I've not seen before: Avatar not in region. Closing FS and re-relogging worked ok.

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4 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Relogging after a failed TP and freeze, I got a message I've not seen before: Avatar not in region. Closing FS and re-relogging worked ok.

Region name and approximate time, please? That is valuable info for LL, as they can check the log...

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Sorry, I didn't make a note at the time, and as I'm constantly jumping from LM to LM I don't remember.

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Posted (edited)

I've just made it safely back home after travelling through 82 sims on my hovercraft, at an average speed of 18.5 kts. Only in two cases I went through the same sim twice (or else I wouldn't be able to get back to base.) I had no issues at all, despite performing many risky crossings (e.g. not at all perpendicular to sims border.)

I didn't spot anyone sailing or flying, , though, not even at Blake Sea, only the "usual crowd" moored at Sirens Isle. But I did see a couple abandoned boats.

I also had no TP failures today so far.

Edited by MBeatrix
corrections

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Posted (edited)

I tried the Blake Sea today. Started at Honah Lee with a speedboat, and went back and forth across most of the Blake Sea sims, ending up by docking at Dutch Harbor. About 40 sim crossings. No problems at all. Sitting in The Mesh Shop while typing this.

Saw six sailboats under way. Two small powerboats, a container barge, three fixed wing aircraft, a helicopter, and a Klingon Bird of Prey in motion. Went by the crowd at Sirens. Looks like a good day.

Edited by animats
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5 minutes ago, animats said:

I tried the Blake Sea today. Started at Honah Lee with a speedboat, and went back and forth across most of the Blake Sea sims, ending up by docking at Dutch Harbor. About 40 sim crossings. No problems at all. Sitting in The Mesh Shop while typing this.

Saw six sailboats under way. Two small powerboats, a container barge, three fixed wing aircraft, a helicopter, and a Klingon Bird of Prey in motion. Went by the crowd at Sirens. Looks like a good day.

How often do we have to repeat that "only certain users seem to be affected" part?

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

How often do we have to repeat that "only certain users seem to be affected" part?

Only some days, too. Four days ago I couldn't get the same boat across more than four or five Blake Sea sims without a failure. Same 50Mb/s network connection.

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Just now, animats said:

Only some days, too. Four days ago I couldn't get the same boat across more than four or five Blake Sea sims without a failure. Same 50Mb/s network connection.

Might as well be first signs of missing net neutrality...

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4 minutes ago, animats said:

Only some days, too.

Yeah, this is how I experience the teleport disconnection bug: Everything's cool for a few days, then for an hour or two I'll crash every time I try to teleport.

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6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Might as well be first signs of missing net neutrality...

I'm on sonic.net, which is pro net neutrality. All they do is pass the IP packets without modification.

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I doubt it's net neutrality problems. Though hey, chuck it in the bin of possible guesses, why not?

Europe here though, and Monday night? Made the entire H7 Yavascript route with no disconnect. Last night? Disconnected so often that my account eventually got locked out. On one account tonight? Regularly disconnect on 3rd or 4th TP attempt. Other account (the one that got locked out last night!)? Completed the entire Yavascript T1 loop with no disconnects. It's like Russian Roulette.

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 I downloaded firestorm, last night, i did 2 runs in the plane 
I flew out 2 sims and turned around and landed the first time ok
second run i froze on landing and was logged out .

Tonight i left the runway and froze right away  ( on firestorm ), the plane went poof and i was sitting stopped in midair then the screen went grey and i was logged out .
Next run i froze entering  the 2nd sim out , plane went poof again and i was on the ocean floor , screen went grey and i was logged out again .
I logged back in at my homestead sim with  the  Alchemy viewer this time , i tried to teleport to the mainland airport but it hung and eventually logged me out .
I came back in with Alchemy again , this time i could teleport to the airport ok .
i did 3 runs , which consists of going out 2 sims and turning  back to land , all 3 runs went well.
I have downloaded the Singularity viewer that Whirly Fizzle  gave me the link to , i have been in sl with my 2 alts about 45 minutes and have not been logged out yet ( i was being logged out with the previous  singualrity alpha viewer i had, usually within about 15 minutes , that version of singularity has become unusable on SL )
Tomorrow night i will try this version of Singularity flying , hopefully sim crossing will be ok and no log out.
My partner uses Alchemy and she had about 6 successful flights tonight with no being logged out 

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"Don't half-heartedly wound problems - kill them dead." - Kelly Johnson, head of the Lockheed Skunk Works, designer of the U-2 and SR-71 spyplanes. What he meant by that is, if it's not working, don't go for a fix that makes it fail less often. Redesign it so it doesn't fail.

The Linden Lab approach to region crossing problems has been to make some minor change to timing or message order that makes the problem behave slightly differently, then ignore it until users complain again. This approach has repeatedly failed. For years. This is a track record of sustained failure.

Linden Lab needs to build enough tools and develop enough understanding that all region crossing problems are caught, logged, analyzed, and a permanent fix that always works developed. Nothing short of a sim crash or total loss of communications with the viewer should cause a sim crossing failure.

The ongoing failure of Linden Lab to fix this problem properly devalues the whole big-world concept of Second Life. We cannot have routine group activities that span regions. Thousands of customers have boats, aircraft, and road vehicles which can seat multiple avatars. Yet we cannot routinely get a group of people together and take a trip without the risk of something failing badly and breaking immersion.  So most of those big yachts stay docked. Group tours are rare. Merely driving around is difficult. Users retreat to private islands or their own little spaces to avoid the risks of venturing out in the big world.

We, as users, need to keep the pressure on Linden Lab and its management to fix the problem. This needs to be brought up by many people whenever Linden Lab CEO, Ebbe Altberg, speaks in public. Fixing this problem properly may require substantial resources. That's why it needs to be addressed at the CEO level.

Here is Mr. Altberg's Twitter feed.

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13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Why. are “Region Crossings” so important? 

Because they're what makes Second Life a world. Not just a loader for canned experiences, like Sansar or SineSpace or High Fidelity.

usageapr.png.a17ad97f0b5f5c013596073aaa56ea6a.png

There are 2.6 million Steam users online right now, and 7 of them are using Sansar.

The other small-world non-game systems aren't doing much better. They're all in 2-digit concurrent user counts.

vrchatusage2.thumb.png.358bd56202f4870241c4441e644ee95e.png

VRChat does better, but it peaked over a year ago.

If Second Life was ranked on Steamcharts, it would be around 7th place, about even with GTA V.

Only Second Life has a big world and a big user base. Region crossings are SL's edge.

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Posted (edited)

Can I doubt that? SL was a unique success story - something similar will not happen ever again. It is not about features - it was about the right product at the right time in the right place.

Edited by Fionalein

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2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Can I doubt that? SL was a unique success story - something similar will not happen ever again. It is not baout features - it was about the right rpoduct at the right time in the right place.

Was and still is, it seems. 😎

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, animats said:

[...]

Group tours are rare.

[...]

No, they are not. An example is The Leeward Cruising Club, with cruises every Tuesday and Sunday. And there are several other groups organizing sailing cruises.

On Saturdays, there is at least one group that I know of organizing road cruises. And some other for aviation. Surely there will be more...

Edited by MBeatrix
corrections

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Region crossing isn't the only thing that keeps SL a viable platform, certainly, but access to interactive activities in SL is pretty important to keeping it populated, and continent-scale mobility is a differentiator in SL's favor.

It's worth fixing it properly because that's the only truly scalable approach -- in contrast to legislating the problem out of existence, as in Sansar, et al. Sure, that can produce big experiences, but that's because they lack any geographic context.

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7 hours ago, animats said:

The Linden Lab approach to region crossing problems has been to make some minor change to timing or message order that makes the problem behave slightly differently, then ignore it until users complain again. This approach has repeatedly failed. For years. This is a track record of sustained failure.

It is also a failure if an attempt to solve a problem results in those who are in a position to work on it rolling their eyes and going, "HHaahhhhhh, him again..." and ignoring the speaker, or if potential allies have similar reactions and find themselves mulling if there's a way to smoosh a grapefruit half on somebody's face virtually.

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To Theresa and Animats I would say this: it is immaterial whether or not we rail at inaction by Linden Lab.  It is also immaterial what we, as individuals think of LL.

The ONLY material aspect of the current situation is that the issue is fixed, and fixed properly and quickly.  Sticking-plaster solutions are in the medium and long-term useless since they will almost certainly come unstuck at a code-change in the near future.

After years of enduring issue after issue that has plagued SL when a small, well-intentioned change in server code has caused significant negative effects, we are all too often in such a position as we find ourselves now.  The problem is exacerbated by LL's high staff turnover resulting in the active server-code team being inexperienced and largely unaware of the unintended result of their work.  LL's and many other contemporary companies' secrecy is a consequence of being unwilling to accept ownership of a system and its issues (another current example might be the Boeing Corporation's tardy acceptance of liability for an issue with their software and its operation). NO I am not suggesting that the two are of equal severity, simply they illustrate a mind-set.

That we should calmly and resolutely keep reminding LL of their obligations is a given.  That we should yell at them or each other is not.

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21 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

That we should calmly and resolutely keep reminding LL of their obligations is a given.

Exactly.

Barlow's classic business book "A Complaint is a Gift" makes a crucial point: For every customer who complains, there were 10 to 100 who silently stopped buying from you. LL needs to be reminded of that occasionally. The people here on the forums are the ones who didn't get fed up and leave.

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9 hours ago, MBeatrix said:

On Saturdays, there is at least one group that I know of organizing road cruises. And some other for aviation. Surely there will be more...

Yes. Drivers of SL. I do those drives most Saturdays. Every week there are major region crossing problems. Typically, about half the drivers have at least one region crossing failure.  Some weeks are worse. We never see as many people at the end of the drive as at the beginning. Christi Charon collects statistics on this.

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

We already have banana-ear; the half-grapefruit facial might be the next big thing.

You don't wanna know what kind of ears some Lindens have these days... 😝

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