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ItHadToComeToThis

A new solution to combat high mainland prices

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Or words to that effect.

So, auctions went live this morning. Already I see people listing 1024sqm parcels for 15k starting bid. No water, land locked and 15k. And it got me thinking about the issue of land flippers and those people setting their prices at 40-100 linden per sqm or who want a million lindens for a full region and an idea occurred to me that would help fix this issue.

What if, mainland parcels sold in world could only be sold to a max value of 1 linden per sqm. So a 1024 would cost $L1024 and a full sim would cost $L65,536. However, if you wanted a higher amount you could send it through to auction where the bid "might" go over the max in world sales allowance..or it might not. Auctions could have a starting bid max restriction of the same 1 linden per sqm but as stated bids can go higher than that.

That would solve the issue of land flippers over night as none of them would be able to charge the extortionate amounts they do for mainland parcels and residents would no longer be being ripped off and perhaps mainland might thrive again. Maybe.

Mainland was intended as a place residents could own and live side by side, build communities etc etc and yet as it stands I can usually pay at least 6 months worth of tier privately for a full region for the same cost as simply purchasing a mainland one.

So that's my idea. 1 linden per sqm and if you want a chance at more, send it to auction.  It's all well and good releasing player to player auctions but if mainland costs several car payments to purchase in the first place then it will remain exactly as it is forever more and no amount of auctions will ever change that.

@Ebbe Linden @Patch Linden @Linden Lab

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As long as tier is being paid (which it is) on those parcels that are priced at extortionate amounts then Linden Lab need not to intervene. It's the resident (land flipper) decision to do as they please with the parcel once they are the owner. If they want to be stuck with tier cost and a parcel set to a price nobody will buy then that is thier business. I know it's frustrating to see those extortonate prices for land but it is what it is and has always been that way. This is a resident to resident problem, again, no need for Linden Lab to start enforcing regulations. 

Residents should start putting in support tickets to buy up abandoned land is one solution to help mainland strive again. 

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39 minutes ago, Lisa006 Baxton said:

As long as tier is being paid (which it is) on those parcels that are priced at extortionate amounts then Linden Lab need not to intervene. It's the resident (land flipper) decision to do as they please with the parcel once they are the owner. If they want to be stuck with tier cost and a parcel set to a price nobody will buy then that is thier business. I know it's frustrating to see those extortonate prices for land but it is what it is and has always been that way. This is a resident to resident problem, again, no need for Linden Lab to start enforcing regulations. 

Residents should start putting in support tickets to buy up abandoned land is one solution to help mainland strive again. 

But there in lies another issue. People keep saying "oh put in a support ticket" but they no longer do that. I have tried on three separate parcels and each time they have said no and just sent it to auction where it had sold for higher than I really want to pay due to the flipmorons outbidding you. Then you check it a week later and it has a 800k linden tag in it

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26 minutes ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

People keep saying "oh put in a support ticket" but they no longer do that.

They do though.

They don't always, that's for sure. I mean, you'll never get a Bay City parcel that way, nor I suspect most Adult land nor protected waterfront. And I'm sure it helps to already have land in the same region with the request, but there are still recent reports of support tickets working for other abandoned land, too.

This might have changed some, now that there are private auctions. Or not. Too soon to tell.

All that said, I'm not especially convinced that the market is driven by a paucity of supply, so claiming abandoned land and sending it to private auction (or whatever) doesn't seem all that promising to me. Could be wrong, though.

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Posted (edited)

I have put in several support tickets and whether thay put it directly in my name or sent it to auction (I didn't meet the criterias to have it placed in my name), I was still able to get it. YMMV. 

A support ticket still brings the much needed attention to the abandoned land for it to be placed in an auction, this gives another resident or you a chance to purchase it. You clearly just want linden lab to control what can be done with the land after purchase.

Just shop for mainland you can afford and stop worrying about what others do with thier piece(s) of land. 

Edited by Lisa006 Baxton
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To respond to the original post: I wouldn't have any problem with that. In fact, it would be fine if there were no in-world land sales at all, and instead all sales would be only by auction.

But I think it's wrong to conclude that any of that would get rid of land-flippers. The difference would be that they'd have to make sure to mark up by more than 15% to clear the auction commission. Cost of doing business, and fine with me if the Lab makes a little on each land sale.

It would get rid of the phony "for sale" land intended to attract attention rather than buyers. I've never actually understood how that works anyway.

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The problem with auctions is that it breaks up the mainland into small pieces.  Without in world sales the mainland would quickly become a mess that no one would want.

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10 minutes ago, Vanessa Sakai said:

Without in world sales the mainland would quickly become a mess that no one would want.

Wait? It hasn't already?

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I'm not worried about the 15+k auctions. These are actions of greedy dimwits that will be stuck with the land (and the obligation to use RL money to pay tier on it) when nobody bids on it.

You see, I don't think anyone will be willing to pay these prices on non-adult, unprotected 1024sqm parcels and the result is that nobody will bid on that land, and the owner is stuck with it until they set a more realistic price.

This ridiculous practice of asking stupid high prices with bid increments of L$100 or more will smoothen itself out in due time. So sit back, and watch with copious amounts of schadenfreude how these parcels remain unsold. :D

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20 minutes ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

You see, I don't think anyone will be willing to pay these prices on non-adult, unprotected 1024sqm parcels and the result is that nobody will bid on that land, and the owner is stuck with it until they set a more realistic price.

Don't underestimate the ignorance of some buyers. :P

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Posted (edited)

or the ability of land merchants to manipulate the market and auctions ... .it's a two way street .. with need of repairs.

Maybe I'm jaded but I really doubt this is going to have that much of an effect on the overall market... at least not any time soon.

Edited by Blush Bravin

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25 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Don't underestimate the ignorance of some buyers. :P

True, but I Iike to think that those buyers are a minority.
I have seen parcels for sale at 250 million before these P2P auctions went live. And my very neighbors have a few 1024sqm parcels for sale at 4-10k, and it just doesn't seem to sell, not even after they put a house on the land, to be included with the sale (I think).
Economics 101 says that inventory equals loss. You will need to sell in order to keep in business and I think that those that think they are clever by trying to auction their tiny parcels at exorbitant opening bids will not be in business for very long.

I bought my 1024sqm parcel at less than 1.5 k and I plan on making the exact buy price the opening bid when LL and I are ready for me to move into one of the new Linden homes. I just want to break even, and a profit would be gravy, but in the end I will be selling my land while those that sell the same size of land for 4+k will be stuck with their land. 🙂

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Posted (edited)

The size of a parcel really has little impact on the value of the parcel. A 512 landlocked in the middle of a granite infested area is far different than one with protected sailable water with sunset views or sunrise for that matter. So using size to compare parcel prices really means nothing.

And often times when you see exorbitant prices on parcels the seller doesn't actually want to sell the land. Their motivation is for attracting renters or simply to annoy the neighbors or any other of a number of reasons. The land market in SL is a complicated one. It takes careful study over a long period of time to even begin to understand the nuances of the market.

Edited by Blush Bravin

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I'm not a land flipper and have only ever bought and sold land that I was living on - selling when I either needed to downsize for some reason or decided I wanted to move to a different location.   

If I happen to have a parcel that is edged by a void sim or by sailable water, I most definitely do not think that I should be forced to go to the auction -- and give LL part of the selling price - if I want to sell it for more than L$1 per sqm.  Prime real estate gets a higher per sqm price because it is just that --- PRIME real estate.

Land can be priced at crazy amounts, but eventually someone will either pay that crazy amount or the owner will reduce the price.  The market will decide.

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If they are stupid enough to buy a landlocked parcel for 15k I say let them be, you can change land process but you cannot change how gullible people are

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, iamyourneighbour said:

If they are stupid enough to buy a landlocked parcel for 15k I say let them be, you can change land process but you cannot change how gullible people are

Isn't this the definition of a scam? Aren't scams supposed to be bad? That whole cheating people thing?

I think the ridiculous land price problem is really an economic problem that exists in RL appearing in SL too. What is yours always seems more valuable. What is someone else's always seems less valuable. In RL real estate, people often think their house is worth more than it is and need a realtor to give them a reality check. And home buyers always think the price should be lower. 

Unfortunately, in SL no realtor provides the reality check. So sellers post sales for ridiculous prices. What I don't understand is why they seem to fail to learn from the fact that their property then sits unsold and they have to pay tier. 

Then there are those who just outright try to cheat people and wait for someone foolish to co me along. 

Edited by Female Winslet

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5 minutes ago, Female Winslet said:

Isn't this the definition of a scam? Aren't scams supposed to be bad? That whole cheating people thing?

I think the ridiculous land price problem is really an economic problem that exists in RL appearing in SL too. What is yours always seems more valuable. What is someone else's always seems less valuable. In RL real estate, people often think their house is worth more than it is and need a realtor to give them a reality check. And home buyers always think the price should be lower. 

Unfortunately, in SL no realtor provides the reality check. So sellers post sales for ridiculous prices. What I don't understand is why they seem to fail to learn from the fact that their property then sits unsold and they have to pay tier. 

Then there are those who just outright try to cheat people and wait for someone foolish to co me along. 

A bad deal is not a scam.

If I tell someone my car has some magic sports engine when it doesn't, and they buy it, that's a scam, because I have misrepresented something that's not factual.

If I tell someone every spec of my car and sell it for twice of what it should be, someone ends up buying it for whatever reason let it be brand attachment or whatever other reason, that's just a bad deal. 

When you look at a parcel in SL, you see the dimension and price per SQM very clearly. Unless a landlocked parcel is being advertised as having free access, then it's not a scam.

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37 minutes ago, Female Winslet said:

Unfortunately, in SL no realtor provides the reality check. So sellers post sales for ridiculous prices. What I don't understand is why they seem to fail to learn from the fact that their property then sits unsold and they have to pay tier.

They don't "fail" they can sit on the land for ages apying tier. If it sells ater some years it still is profit for that parcel. In the big picture however they need to sell a lot of parcels again after some years - and that is not gonna happen (but might take them longer to realize).

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Posted (edited)

Direct sale, or by auction, if someone is willing to pay the high price asked, that's all good.

An owned parcel i had my eye on went for auction instead of sale. They got far more than a land flipper would have paid. It was already over $8,000 L when i noticed the auction. Talking to the buyer they said they managed to get in again at the last second and win. I didn't ask what they paid, but i'm guessing it was around $12,000 L. They bought it to flip it, so they immediately set the sale price at $25,000 which considering the prices on the surrounding parcels, is actually relatively cheap. That was a week ago, the price is already down to $20,999, and they are trying to rent it out as well. If it ever drops to $10,000, I might buy it, but probably won't. I find that if you wait long enough, there is always a parcel available at the price YOU are willing to pay.

I myself flipped a parcel last week. Bought it for $5 L per sq m, then put it up for sale a few weeks later for $10 L per sq m, because i got a 4096 even cheaper and didn't need the prims any more. It was a fantastic deal at $10 L per sq m, but i'm not greedy, and it made me a profit. It sold in 12 hours.

 

Edited by BilliJo Aldrin
added words

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8 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I'm not a land flipper and have only ever bought and sold land that I was living on - selling when I either needed to downsize for some reason or decided I wanted to move to a different location.   

If I happen to have a parcel that is edged by a void sim or by sailable water, I most definitely do not think that I should be forced to go to the auction -- and give LL part of the selling price - if I want to sell it for more than L$1 per sqm.  Prime real estate gets a higher per sqm price because it is just that --- PRIME real estate.

Land can be priced at crazy amounts, but eventually someone will either pay that crazy amount or the owner will reduce the price.  The market will decide.

Even when i was promoting my $1 L per parcel mainland scheme, I never suggested caps on what land could be offered for sale in the private market.

Land sales in SL are a perfect example of the free market at work.

You offer something for sale. If we can't agree on a price, there is no sale. What could be fairer than that?

And as i said before, all LL cares about is that someone is paying tier, they don't care and shouldn't care if someone puts a $1,000,000 L price tag on a 512.

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23 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

To respond to the original post: I wouldn't have any problem with that. In fact, it would be fine if there were no in-world land sales at all, and instead all sales would be only by auction.

Well that was ill-considered. It's not only that it would be unfair to sellers of quality land -- which it surely would be -- but it would also make it ridiculously difficult to buy quality land. You'd need to be poised to buy just when the land you want is at auction -- it's not as if every for-sale parcel can be relisted every day.

(Incidentally, thinking about all this I better appreciate the value added by land resellers: they carry for-sale parcels on inventory, which provides a real service to buyers, and they deserve some margin on their investment and risk.)

Doing away with private in-world land sales, or limiting them to L$1/sqm, would destroy most of the land market in an attempt to address what's not even much of a problem: some land has stupidly high prices. Those few stupidly overpriced parcels don't mean Mainland is generally overpriced; land still sells at a price the market will bear.

All that said, I still wouldn't have a problem with the Lab getting a "tax" on all land sales, not merely the auction commission, especially if it meant compensating tier reductions.

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On 3/28/2019 at 8:46 AM, Qie Niangao said:

Doing away with private in-world land sales, or limiting them to L$1/sqm, would destroy most of the land market in an attempt to address what's not even much of a problem: some land has stupidly high prices. Those few stupidly overpriced parcels don't mean Mainland is generally overpriced; land still sells at a price the market will bear.

I notice that all over mainland, parcels sit there for sale for months at a time. They don’t sell. They are stupidly high priced. There are few reasonable priced parcels that pop up for sale, even briefly. In the absence of some sort of reliable study, this suggests to me that (1) a great deal of land has stupidly high prices, (2) mainland is generally overpriced, and (3) land is sitting around unsold at prices the market will not bear. 

Part of the problem may be that even non-land barons are influenced by ridiculous land baron prices. You’ve seen the problem if you’ve watched Pawn Stars. People come in wanting to sell their item at some ridiculous price and they think their price is fair because they saw listing so on eBay or elsewhere at that price. Rick has to explain that someone asking that much doesn’t mean it will sell for that much. Barring the occasional person whose ignorance can be exploited by those of questionable ethics, of course. 

Similarly, SL folks wanting to sell their land look at the minimap and see parcels for sale at ridiculous prices from the land barons, so they ask ridiculous prices for their parcel too. No one buys except the occasional person who doesn’t know any better and whose ignorance can be exploited by those of questionable ethics.

Which brings us to . . . .

On 3/28/2019 at 4:16 AM, iamyourneighbour said:

If I tell someone every spec of my car and sell it for twice of what it should be, someone ends up buying it for whatever reason let it be brand attachment or whatever other reason, that's just a bad deal. 

Exploiting the ignorance of others to price gouge them is a scam in my book. I recognize that a lot of people think anything is okay as long as they get money. I think integrity and fair dealing are important. The lack of those things as in your scenario above is just a scam.

On 3/28/2019 at 4:16 AM, iamyourneighbour said:

When you look at a parcel in SL, you see the dimension and price per SQM very clearly. Unless a landlocked parcel is being advertised as having free access, then it's not a scam.

I’m not sure what “free access” is, but I see things like this all the time. The edge of a sim that has no neighboring sim is sold as “unblockable ocean access.” A parcel adjoining an abandoned water parcel is sold as having “protected water access.” Of course all of this is easily visible to anyone who knows how to tell the difference. And it is either being sold by people who do not know better or being sold to target people who don’t know any better.

Some say let the buyer beware because, after all, everything is okay that puts money in their pockets. Others say let the seller be honest instead of trying to cheat people by exploiting their ignorance. Whether it is ignorance about what a reasonable price should be or ignorance about land characteristics.

In real life, you might get away with the scam pricing. The misrepresentations described above would cross the line and be known as “fraud.” And, actually, I dare say there are an awful lot of land sellers who should be thankful that people are generally highly reluctant to sue over anything because I see no reason they could not be sued over SL fraud. 

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2 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

I notice that all over mainland, parcels sit there for sale for months at a time. They don’t sell. They are stupidly high priced. There are few reasonable priced parcels that pop up for sale, even briefly. In the absence of some sort of reliable study, this suggests to me that (1) a great deal of land has stupidly high prices, (2) mainland is generally overpriced, and (3) land is sitting around unsold at prices the market will not bear. 

I certainly agree the bit I highlighted is a big barrier to understanding this market. Long ago, the Lab put out reasonably complete market statistics, without which this really is pretty much tea-leaf reading.

And it no doubt depends on where one looks for those tea leaves. I mostly watch Bay City, a few double-prim Zindra regions, and a few rail-adjacent areas scattered around the Atoll continent. And I'm not all that systematic about it. Bay City is a little more rigorous because @Marianne McCann puts out weekly counts of parcels for sale in the east and west sides of town.

It's far from exhaustive, and these locations are not representatively priced for the rest of Mainland, but still: Land sells. I know sometimes the seller gradually drops the price until it sells, maybe some eventually resort to fire sale discounts, but something causes a lot of parcels to change hands. Sometimes, yeah, it takes weeks and months, but that's a feature: that way there's a selection of parcels available; if everything was priced to sell immediately there'd be no stock from which to choose. (And that's why I'm fine with in-world sales going for higher prices than the same parcels at auction: we're paying for the dealer's cost of holding that inventory for us instead of our needing to anticipate wanting the land during the few days it's visibly at auction.)

Sure, there are some that will never sell and are "for sale" only hypothetically.* But they're just not part of the market. It's possible their unrealistic prices cause some sellers to try similar prices, but of course those sellers will be frustrated and either drop their price or (I think most often) simply abandon their land.

And counteracting that abandonment is where I think these new auctions will help. Eventually, after the nonsense and froth clear out, residents should learn to set minimums at or near zero and let bidders determine the fair market value. I do think that will pull more middle- and lower-value land out of abandonment, with a substantial decrease in the average cost of land (without diminishing the value of any individual parcel). At least it will be interesting to see if this happens -- albeit subjectively, in lieu of actual data.

____________
*I've surrounded one 16 sq.m. adfarm parcel for sale at L$4000 for over a decade now, starting back when adfarms were still a thing. It's theoretically for sale, but of course nobody will ever buy it. It's an extreme case, but there are plenty other parcels stranded in time at prices clearly intended never to sell.

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Posted (edited)

I've noticed something about this issue, it's rare but does happen. When one of these flippers doesn't get the price they want for the land, they will abandon the land instead of lowering their price. This tells me they're only interested in racking up their lindens. They're greedy.

Another issue that I've seen is all these 'real estate' groups, advertising land for sale when it's actually renting from them. In some cases, you have to sell the land back to them. And they are everywhere, own huge lots of land. I'm like 'people, it's virtual, it's not like you'r buying a lot in New York and Montana... This is insane!"

I think there should be a separate way to identify this type of land- a different color on the map- compared to mainland that is actually for sale.

Edited by MzSarken

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Posted (edited)

If you're in the land business, there can be many reasons to drop a parcel, especially as keeping land costs you money month after month. If you have a plot that isn't selling at the amount you need to cover your costs, and doesn't look like it will sell then holding it only guarantees it will continue to rack up costs.

If I buy some land for $10 fun bucks, and it costs me $1 a month to keep it, the market price based on similar or nearby land is $18, how long should I keep the land before writing it off as a bad purchase? If I held it so long that my only choice was to drop the price and continue to pay the monthly in the hope of recovering some of the losses, I've held onto it far too long.

It's a better decision to drop the parcel and use it's monthly fees somewhere else and try again.

The cost of these losses will be part of the business model.

This is why you will find boxed, brand new, Big-Brand-Chain-Store stuff in your local thrift store from time to time.

It's not greed, the land market in SL is competitive, holding stock is expensive and margins can be tight. No malice required.

----

If you buy mainland, and the land has your name on the parcel, no one can compel you to sell it to anyone, ever. It is your land, you only answer to Linden Lab, end of story.

On private islands, buying land is more about the transferal of control rather than ownership. You never own that land, but for technical reasons you will appear to. You don't need to sell it back, an estate manager can just come and reclaim it at anytime. I guess if someone was working for an estate and didn't have estate powers, selling it back does allow them to get it back on the market with less hassle .. again, the word 'buy' is misleading. It's like handing the keys back when you leave a rented home IRL.

Edited by CoffeeDujour

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