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Why do people support sellers that do no mod?

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16 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

So, how do you go about tint matching a textured patterned piece of clothing? Primary colors i can get behind, but realistically, how many blank pieces of clothing do you have? No pattern at all? Even if its a blue texture, you still have to try and match the color by tinting an already colored texture. 

One thing that keeps popping up in these threads is the complaint that merchants make primary colors only. Have any of you tried asking a merchant for a specific color? I have had customers ask for a specific hex code color of an outfit. I made it for them with no extra cost. Its just good business. They would NOT have been able to tint it that way. it had a pattern running down the side.

Try asking nicely. Also, dont make you first purchase something you had to ask for a specific color for. If some random person out of the blue says, "Hey can you make this outfit in ______ color?" More than likely I will say no if they have never bought anything of mine before. Or i will charge them for custom work. Regular customers, i will do free work for. They already support me. More than once i have done custom work taking hours of time to make to the letter what someone asked for only to have them say "That is perfect but, I changed my mind.." 

Well, buying multiple items from a creator (or several, if I want to wear a top from someone and a skirt from another...) just to hope that they'll eventually be willing to recolor one of them for you isn't really realistic. What would I do with the other unusable pieces? At that point I'll just go to one of many creators who sell mod items and do it myself.

And if tinting doesn't work (it usually does; most textures can handle a slight tint, and very white ones more so) and I really, really like the mesh itself, I can always retexture it myself, which saves the creator some work.

For the record, one color I always look for is teal, and the various other shades between blue and green. They're rarely available off the shelf :(

 

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Anyway, the owner of an item also has rights to their legally purchased property.

The owner of an item purchased legally in SL has only the rights allowed by the creator of said item. A customer has ZERO rights to demand a merchant make anything with specific permissions. 

40 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Well, buying multiple items from a creator (or several, if I want to wear a top from someone and a skirt from another...) just to hope that they'll eventually be willing to recolor one of them for you isn't really realistic. What would I do with the other unusable pieces? At that point I'll just go to one of many creators who sell mod items and do it myself.

Why would they be unusable? Are you seriously going to say you couldn't find something to buy in a store that sells over 400 pieces of clothing?

41 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

And if tinting doesn't work (it usually does; most textures can handle a slight tint, and very white ones more so) and I really, really like the mesh itself, I can always retexture it myself, which saves the creator some work.

How would you retexture it without the UV or shadow maps?  Just gonna drop a blank color on it? 

42 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

For the record, one color I always look for is teal, and the various other shades between blue and green. They're rarely available off the shelf :(

One of my favorite colors. Soon as I get out of the hospital i intend on making a line of clothing in Teal,  various blues and spring colors. I also need to update the teal stuff i have with more rigged fitted mesh sizes.. 

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2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why would they be unusable? Are you seriously going to say you couldn't find something to buy in a store that sells over 400 pieces of clothing?

How would you retexture it without the UV or shadow maps?  Just gonna drop a blank color on it?

I'm not referring to any store in particular or with any suggested objectivity, but often a (huge) store might have 1-3 pieces that I personally like (color- or otherwise), and the rest just don't work with what I'm going for. Others I'm very much a regular at.

As for retexturing, most clothes have fairly simple UV maps. You'd apply a grid texture to it to see where everything ends up, and then go from that. Particularly for individual faces (sleeves or hems, for example; details where you'd usually have colors) this is very doable. Granted I don't usually do anything too complicated, nor if the whole product is a single face.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How would you retexture it without the UV or shadow maps?  Just gonna drop a blank color on it? 

Well, one option would be to save the supplied texture from cache, since the viewer will have ever so nicely downloaded it. That provides an instant reference for both UV and AO shading.

But let me ask this, why not offer the UV and AO maps anyway?! If the mesh is truly unique, then they have no value to anything else anyway. If the mesh is template (and readily available), the modding inclined customer will seek the original FP mesh if it's that important and get the maps that way and not buy the no mod item in the first place.

I accept that people selling template mesh will likely not have the rights to include the AO and UV maps so just point the now non customer to the source of template mesh and move on.

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41 minutes ago, Sassy Romano said:

Well, one option would be to save the supplied texture from cache, since the viewer will have ever so nicely downloaded it. That provides an instant reference for both UV and AO shading.

I am very disappointed you would suggest this.. Whether or not it is saved in your cache does not give you the right to use it to make textures. 

 

42 minutes ago, Sassy Romano said:

But let me ask this, why not offer the UV and AO maps anyway?! If the mesh is truly unique, then they have no value to anything else anyway. If the mesh is template (and readily available), the modding inclined customer will seek the original FP mesh if it's that important and get the maps that way and not buy the no mod item in the first place.

It has plenty of value to the creator. 

If it is a FP mesh template, by all means buy it yourself and make your own textures. Figure out which one it is and go hog wild.

I guess the whole point is, no one has any right to dictate what permissions a merchant has to give. We don't HAVE to give you a reason. Just like a land owner doesn't have to give a reason for a ban. 

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I guess the whole point is, no one has any right to dictate what permissions a merchant has to give. We don't HAVE to give you a reason. Just like a land owner doesn't have to give a reason for a ban. 

Drake, this is such a tired, predictable, and utterly irrelevant response. We hear it every single time someone complains about a landowner, or a sim, or a creator, and it gets endlessly repeated in variations of "My land, my rules!" or "My creation, my rules!"

No one is "demanding" anything here.

Critique is not a "demand." It's critique. What you are hearing is criticism, complaint, and suggestion, but not a single person here, that I've seen, has demanded anything of you. And just as it is indisputably your right to market your creations however you wish, so too it is our right, as consumers and potential customers, to tell you how we feel about your decision.

To borrow a page from Solar's playbook: Don't like criticism? Tough. Get over it. Or get out of the business.

Now, a clever merchant would actually make good use of what they are hearing here. RL corporations pay good money for customer feedback: they commission marketing surveys, run focus groups, provide ways for consumers to indicate their "customer satisfaction." And then, rather than whining about their "rights," they use that information to determine their marketing strategy. This is Marketing 101, for heaven's sake.

So, ask yourself: why has this thread now reached 7 pages, and still going? Why do we get variations on this same theme of "mod" vs. "no mod" over and over again here?

Could it be because there is a potentially sizable market for "mod" goods? Maybe?

So, hey, here's a thought. Rather than drawing up the drawbridge and hunkering down behind your "no one can tell me what to do" defence, when no one is in fact even questioning that, why not put this information to good use?

What if, for instance, you were to create a line of your own goods that included "mod" permissions? You could mark them up an additional L$50 or L$100, or whatever is commensurate to the overall cost of the item. THEN, those who didn't care about mod perms could buy the cheaper, no mod version of the item, and those who wanted mod perms could, if they thought it worthwhile, pay extra for that. It's a win-win, and all because your potential consumers had the temerity to let you know how they felt about the way that you marketed your goods!

Give that idea some thought, and let me know what you decide. My consultancy fees are quite reasonable, and if you decide to follow up on it, you can make the cheque out to "Scylla Rhiadra, Market Consultant and Saviour of the Capitalist System."

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I am very disappointed you would suggest this.. Whether or not it is saved in your cache does not give you the right to use it to make textures. 

 

It has plenty of value to the creator. 

If it is a FP mesh template, by all means buy it yourself and make your own textures. Figure out which one it is and go hog wild.

First point, the texture is there, what people do with it is up to them. I didn't suggest it, I said it's an option. Subtle difference.

Yes the maps have value to the creator of the texture but my question wasn't answered. If the item is unique and they're only a match for that creation, if the merchant had no interest in making a change, I'm asking why not allow the customer? They have value to a customer, even a monetary value if desired.

No demand here, the question is simple and genuine.

"Because I don't want to", while an answer, isn't particularly convincing and while I accept that there doesn't need to be any reason whatsoever, it's much easier to be less perplexed when there's a really good explanation. I love good explanations with well thought out reasoning because I learn something that I might not have previously considered.

Right now though, over got that perplexed "huh?!" kinda look.

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46 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Drake, this is such a tired, predictable, and utterly irrelevant response. We hear it every single time someone complains about a landowner, or a sim, or a creator, and it gets endlessly repeated in variations of "My land, my rules!" or "My creation, my rules!"

No one is "demanding" anything here.

Critique is not a "demand." It's critique. What you are hearing is criticism, complaint, and suggestion, but not a single person here, that I've seen, has demanded anything of you. And just as it is indisputably your right to market your creations however you wish, so too it is our right, as consumers and potential customers, to tell you how we feel about your decision.

To borrow a page from Solar's playbook: Don't like criticism? Tough. Get over it. Or get out of the business.

Now, a clever merchant would actually make good use of what they are hearing here. RL corporations pay good money for customer feedback: they commission marketing surveys, run focus groups, provide ways for consumers to indicate their "customer satisfaction." And then, rather than whining about their "rights," they use that information to determine their marketing strategy. This is Marketing 101, for heaven's sake.

So, ask yourself: why has this thread now reached 7 pages, and still going? Why do we get variations on this same theme of "mod" vs. "no mod" over and over again here?

Could it be because there is a potentially sizable market for "mod" goods? Maybe?

So, hey, here's a thought. Rather than drawing up the drawbridge and hunkering down behind your "no one can tell me what to do" defence, when no one is in fact even questioning that, why not put this information to good use?

What if, for instance, you were to create a line of your own goods that included "mod" permissions? You could mark them up an additional L$50 or L$100, or whatever is commensurate to the overall cost of the item. THEN, those who didn't care about mod perms could buy the cheaper, no mod version of the item, and those who wanted mod perms could, if they thought it worthwhile, pay extra for that. It's a win-win, and all because your potential consumers had the temerity to let you know how they felt about the way that you marketed your goods!

 

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39 minutes ago, Sassy Romano said:

First point, the texture is there, what people do with it is up to them. I didn't suggest it, I said it's an option. Subtle difference.

What you're suggesting as an option is theft. 

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This argument comes up over and over because creators aren't making mod items. And a few people like to complain and moan about it. If the complaint was valid and creators weren't selling their no-mod products they would change. But that's not the case. There is a very good market for those who choose to sell no-mod or they wouldn't keep doing it. And this very thing is what makes those who only want mod mad, so they come to the forums and complain incessantly. That's why the title of this thread is "Why do people support sellers that do no mod?". This person didn't want to know why creators do it .. he wanted to motivate people to not buy it. Well good luck with that. It's not happening. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

What you're suggesting as an option is theft. 

Again, I didn't suggest anything, merely described what's possible. Having said that, you need to reread the definition of theft. This isn't it.

You may also want to campaign about the way the viewer works, creature a JIRA etc. It puts textures on the client, what happens next is beyond your control.

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8 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

This argument comes up over and over because creators aren't making mod items. And a few people like to complain and moan about it. If the complaint was valid and creators weren't selling their no-mod products they would change. But that's not the case. There is a very good market for those who choose to sell no-mod or they wouldn't keep doing it. And this very thing is what makes those who only want mod mad, so they come to the forums and complain incessantly. That's why the title of this thread is "Why do people support sellers that do no mod?". This person didn't want to know why creators do it .. he wanted to motivate people to not buy it. Well good luck with that. It's not happening. 

 

Ok, he didn't, I am asking why. Convince me as to why it's a good thing...

What have I missed that's convincing, the *must* be something?!

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4 minutes ago, Sassy Romano said:

Convince me as to why it's a good thing...

That's not my job nor do I have any desire to convince you of anything. I made my comment.. do with it as you will. 

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32 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

There is a very good market for those who choose to sell no-mod or they wouldn't keep doing it.

Unquestionably.

33 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

And a few people like to complain and moan about it.

I'm not sure how you conclude that it is only a "few people." This pops up here often enough to suggest that, even if it is only a minority of consumers, there is a reasonably sizable segment of the "market" that wants mod goods.

Also, I'm not sure why you need to use such a pejorative characterization as "moan and complain." Is criticism illegitimate? Should people not be permitted to voice their dissatisfaction with the established order of things?

37 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

This person didn't want to know why creators do it .. he wanted to motivate people to not buy it. Well good luck with that. It's not happening.

Quite probably not. And that's fine: I wouldn't support that kind of boycott myself. I do, when it makes sense to do so, buy no mod items.

But, again . . . why aren't you listening to the voices here, instead of dismissing them offhand as moaners and malcontents? Why not leverage this market? Because it's not going away either. And you, and other creators, can take advantage of that, instead of (sorry) "moaning and complaining" that people are expressing their dissatisfaction with no mod goods.

 

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But, again . . . why aren't you listening to the voices here, instead of dismissing them offhand as moaners and malcontents? Why not leverage this market? Because it's not going away either. And you, and other creators, can take advantage of that, instead of (sorry) "moaning and complaining" that people are expressing their dissatisfaction with no mod goods.

Apparently you have no idea how I sell my products or what permissions I do or do not set. 

 

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure how you conclude that it is only a "few people." This pops up here often enough to suggest that, even if it is only a minority of consumers, there is a reasonably sizable segment of the "market" that wants mod goods.

Same people over and over. I don't see evidence that it's a large or even smallish percentage of the market as evidenced by what is available on the market.

 

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Also, I'm not sure why you need to use such a pejorative characterization as "moan and complain." Is criticism illegitimate? Should people not be permitted to voice their dissatisfaction with the established order of things?

I don't have any problem with criticism. But when it is the same argument over and over by the same people, it gets old. 

In all the years I've been selling the number of customers who have asked me to make something mod that was no mod I could count on one hand. It's just not an issue in my business. The only place I see it being an issue is in the forums. 

I'm just going to ignore posts with this topic from now on, because it's just the same old tired argument from the same people. I will listen to my customers. I always have. They are the ones that are important to me.

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Apparently you have no idea how I sell my products or what permissions I do or do not set.

No, I don't.

And it's not really relevant: I'm responding to your arguments here, rather than to your own business practices. I'm in no position to critique the latter, because I don't know what they are.

15 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Same people over and over.

Is it the same people? Has the OP raised this issue before? (I honestly don't know: has he?) I don't know that I've ever joined in this discussion before. Not so far as I can recall, anyway. Who are these "same people"?

15 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

In all the years I've been selling the number of customers who have asked me to make something mod that was no mod I could count on one hand. It's just not an issue in my business.

Great! Then none of this really applies to you, and you can just ignore it.

15 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I will listen to my customers. I always have. They are the ones that are important to me.

This seems to me exactly right. But are you sure that you aren't losing potential customers who aren't talking to you, but are simply passing over your offerings silently?

Again, how you market your goods is entirely up to you. Similarly, whether or not you choose to listen, and respond to, criticisms of prevalent business practices is totally your call. Maybe you're absolutely right, in the context of your own business, that this is not an important issue: I have no idea.

But none of that means that it is legitimate to dismiss slightingly and out-of-hand the views of those who want more mod items available. They may be wrong, and you're within your rights to explain why they are. But that's not the same as merely denigrating them as "moaners and complainers."

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra

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14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Also, I'm not sure why you need to use such a pejorative characterization as "moan and complain." Is criticism illegitimate? Should people not be permitted to voice their dissatisfaction with the established order of things?

It wasnt criticism in the opening salvo. We no mod merchants were told it was shady (meaning possibly illegal, not on the up and up, dishonest) to sell things no mod and were only doing so to sell more items. I would just like to point out that the whole purpose of being a content creator in SL is to sell your items, with regards to clothing with as much variety as the merchant deems. How is it shady to sell things in various shades, textures and patterns? 

17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But, again . . . why aren't you listening to the voices here, instead of dismissing them offhand as moaners and malcontents? Why not leverage this market? Because it's not going away either. And you, and other creators, can take advantage of that, instead of (sorry) "moaning and complaining" that people are expressing their dissatisfaction with no mod goods.

 

Because I don't want to sell my clothing with Mod perms. I don't want my items being changed. If a mesh clothing has mod perms the customer can buy a new texture and change it. I have had people ask me

"where is  ______ dress?"  
"i dont make that dress in that pattern." "
"yes you do."
"no really, i dont."
"But i saw it on my friend" 
"Honest, i dont make that dress in leopard print." 

Turns out her friend bought a texture pack for the FP mesh i used and changed it.  I dont need that kind of hassle nor do i want other peoples textures attached to my name. So i made  the switch to No Mod. My choice. Stop telling me how much more i would sell. 

All i am reading throughout this thread is basically, clothing creators dont know what they are doing and customers could do it better. So do so. Buy or make your own mesh and do so. You want to match outfits from various creators, not gonna happen, just like in RL. A skirt from A wont match the shoes from B or the top from C. As i have said before, try asking the creator for specific colors. If you aren't already a customer, be prepared to pay extra. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You want to match outfits from various creators, not gonna happen, just like in RL

Women do exactly this every time they go shopping in RL. SL bloggers do it. I'll even give you an example that I put together when I was still modeling in SL. The description at the bottom, is called a style card.

https://phedrelefevre.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/alice-in-wonderland-revisited/

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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Posted (edited)

oh my, come on folks - you ahve the right to be triggred by whatever you hate - no one is challenging that - but wildly lashing around you in anger cuases another reaction...

@Scylla Rhiadra SL is not RL - if you look elsewhere one the Forums I will have somewhere made the claim that most of SL merchants would not be fit to run a RL business ;) just keep that in mind when preaching to them...

 

Edited by Fionalein
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I don't need to buy mod clothing to be able to put together an outfit from various merchants. All it takes is some know how and knowledge of what I have in my inventory. I mix and match clothing from different creators all the time. Very few of the creators I buy clothing from sell mod clothing and yet, I have no difficulty getting things to work together. It just takes some want to!

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18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
33 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Apparently you have no idea how I sell my products or what permissions I do or do not set.

No, I don't.

And it's not really relevant: I'm responding to your arguments here, rather than to your own business practices. I'm in no position to critique the latter, because I don't know what they are.

To be fair, Scylla, you rather did assume knowledge of how Blush sets permissions on their products when you responded to them with the following:

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

This person didn't want to know why creators do it .. he wanted to motivate people to not buy it. Well good luck with that. It's not happening.

Quite probably not. And that's fine: I wouldn't support that kind of boycott myself. I do, when it makes sense to do so, buy no mod items.

But, again . . . why aren't you listening to the voices here, instead of dismissing them offhand as moaners and malcontents? Why not leverage this market? Because it's not going away either. And you, and other creators, can take advantage of that, instead of (sorry) "moaning and complaining" that people are expressing their dissatisfaction with no mod goods.

That's how it read to me, at least.

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7 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

We no mod merchants were told it was shady (meaning possibly illegal, not on the up and up, dishonest) to sell things no mod and were only doing so to sell more items.

That wasn't my understanding of what he said: I thought he explicitly stated that those who were using no mod only to sell more items were "shady," rather than that no mod was always about selling more items, and hence always shady. I could find the full quote, I suppose, but I can't be bothered. As it happens, I disagree: I don't myself believe it is "shady." It is, in fact, how the system works. I think the system sometimes sucks, but that doesn't mean that those who are using it therefore suck as well.

So, we are more or less in agreement here. You aren't "shady." But that doesn't negate the larger argument about the value of mod items.

11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Because I don't want to sell my clothing with Mod perms.

Cool. Then don't. It's your choice.

But, again, that doesn't in itself negate the argument for selling mod items. It merely registers your unwillingness to do so.

12 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Stop telling me how much more i would sell.

Well, no. I'm fully entitled to express that opinion. And you are fully entitled to ignore it, as indeed you apparently are.

You are also entitled -- indeed, encouraged! -- to explain to me why I'm wrong. But you're not doing that: you've simply decided to take a different route, which is of course your right.

14 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

ll i am reading throughout this thread is basically, clothing creators dont know what they are doing and customers could do it better.

Not a fan of the old expression, "The customer is always right," eh?

I certainly couldn't "do it better," and am not going to try. But I do know that there are makers who are missing out on making sales to me because they aren't interested in my preferences. That's their choice, of course. But there might be a few who listen to me, and decide that they'd like to try something a bit different in the hope of parting me from some of my precious Lindens.

 

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not a fan of the old expression, "The customer is always right," eh?

Anyone who has ever worked retail IRL will answer a resounding "Hell no" to that ;)

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1 minute ago, Skell Dagger said:

To be fair, Scylla, you rather did assume knowledge of how Blush sets permissions on their products when you responded to them with the following:

That's how it read to me, at least.

Fair enough. If I understand what Blush has said above -- and possibly I'm misremembering? -- she actually does sell some of her items mod?

I should certainly have been more careful in my use of the Royal "You," and in suggesting that Blush was necessarily doing what everyone else does.

So, my apologies to Blush for that.

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Just now, Skell Dagger said:

Anyone who has ever worked retail IRL will answer a resounding "Hell no" to that ;)

Yet it's up to us to make it right for the customer so they will come back again and again and again and spend more money so we can continue making the customer happy and making money.

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