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CoffeeDujour

Please let us see bots.

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I'm not buying it until a Linden comes in here and confirms either of your definitions. I consider them to be the authority not a resident.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm not buying it until a Linden comes in here and confirms either of your definitions. I consider them to be the authority not a resident.

Even after I directly quoted the LL bot wiki page? And linked the page?

Quote

Bots, or scripted agents, are avatars controlled by computer programs rather than people. For more information, see What is a bot?.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots

 

Quote
bot
An avatar controlled by a software program, rather than by a human.

 

 

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/What_is_a_bot%3F#bot

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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18 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Simply put, a bot is a computer program that does not require human interaction* to function.

 

That makes me sad.

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'Scripted Agent' is our term to describe a Second Life account that is operated by a program rather than by a real person. These are often called 'Bots' by residents and are automated avatars that perform specific tasks inworld, generally without any human intervention. There are Bots that manage Land tasks and Bots that model clothing in stores.

My source for definition.

bot.png.af4a9e262e452440238e138763c0b1cd.png

Bots modeling clothing in stores, rarely happens anymore, but it used to be quite normal to see them in nearly every clothing store you entered. Those bots.. yes, bots .. called bots by all at the time, didn't need any kind of external program to run them. They stood or walked using an AO or pose stand. They were logged in by a person. They were logged off by a person. They had to be registered as a scripted agent. So here we see a clear example of how LINDEN LAB designated them as bots .. yes bots. Because they were not being actively monitored by a person or made to move by a person and because they could affect traffic numbers it was determined they were bots, and therefore had to be registered as scripted agents. The fact that the word generally is used in regard to human interaction also indicates that total operation by a program is not necessary to be classified as a bot or scripted agent.

I've posted this same example numerous times but somehow it's ignored or completely taken out of context and insinuated that the Lindens didn't know what they were talking about when they posted the examples in the first place. 

And then we have the very current case Kali posted about where her alts had to be registered as scripted agents. 

generally = in most cases, usually

 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm not buying it until a Linden comes in here and confirms either of your definitions. I consider them to be the authority not a resident.

That's a logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority.

image.png.53c219f97a601fdddc274d795eb827aa.png

image.png.917af3c825679aa2833b0913a7b4c9c7.png

Edited by kali Wylder
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5 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

That's a logical fallacy known as the appeal to authority.

Appeal to Authority Examples. Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject.

In this case, the Lindens aren't just believed to have the authority .. they do have the authority. They make the decisions. Yes, we can appeal them, but they still have the final word even in an appeal. To disregard that authority is ludicrous.

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Ahah! Contrary to what Phil said, I could indeed change my own settings to self-identify as a scripted agent, a Bot. If I did so, it would mean that according to LL, I am officially a Bot no matter what anyone else says.

2A72E04B-BEE9-4C18-8108-CD7FDA9BD1AF.jpeg

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Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Ahah! Contrary to what Phil said, I could indeed change my own settings to self-identify as a scripted agent, a Bot. If I did so, it would mean that according to LL, I am officially a Bot no matter what anyone else says.

2A72E04B-BEE9-4C18-8108-CD7FDA9BD1AF.jpeg

I thought you knew that already. Any account can be "registered as a bot", meaning, changed to scripted agent status. 

Just keep in mind that if you do change an account to agent status and you use the account for personal use, that can also result in "disciplinary action" for misuse. Two edged sword, there.

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55 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:
  Quote
bot
An avatar controlled by a software program, rather than by a human.

 

 

 

so wait...

 

by the letter of the word all those BDSMers are bots while they are caught in their RLV traps?

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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

Just keep in mind that if you do change an account to agent status and you use the account for personal use, that can also result in "disciplinary action" for misuse. Two edged sword, there.

What’s an example of something “personal use” that an avatar registered as a scripted agent could do, that would be misuse,  besides the search, message, infohub examples on the page?

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Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

What’s an example of something “personal use” that an avatar registered as a scripted agent could do, that would be misuse,  besides the search, message, infohub examples on the page?

Simply using a bot/scripted agent as a "normal" account, like exploring the grid, chatting with friends, that sort of thing. Using it that way is not the intended usage. LL doesn't have to overlook the fact that people do do that, but they do. As long as you don't make a habit of it, you'd probably be fine. Probably.

We're all human. Occasionally, we might forget (momentarily) what account we are on and IM someone. LL won't normally come down on you like a ton of bricks for that. That only happens when a Linden isn't really clear on what the policy is. Rarely does it happen because a Linden is being vindictive.

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9 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

so wait...

 

by the letter of the word all those BDSMers are bots while they are caught in their RLV traps?

You'd be better off asking someone who uses RLV. I've never turned it on and don't see any need to do so.

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23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Appeal to Authority Examples. Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject.

In this case, the Lindens aren't just believed to have the authority .. they do have the authority. They make the decisions. Yes, we can appeal them, but they still have the final word even in an appeal. To disregard that authority is ludicrous.

I do not disregard their authority, note that I did what they told me to do.  However, that does not make them right.

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oh right bots were only allowed to communicate 1000 contacts a day or it will be considered SPAM ...

not sure about exact number but I know bots in huge groups were violating it with one group message alone...

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

oh right bots were only allowed to communicate 1000 contacts a day or it will be considered SPAM ...

not sure about exact number but I know bots in huge groups were violating it with one group message alone...

It's right there on the wiki page. 

Quote

 

Sending an excessive number of messages with bots is not allowed.

You may not use bots to send more than 5,000 messages in a calendar day. Messages to groups are counted as one message for every recipient in the group. All bots operated by a single user share a common limit.

For example, the following activities are violations of this policy:

Bots causing unreasonable load on search or the regions in which they operate.

Bots causing a nuisance by regularly getting stuck at welcome areas or infohubs. This includes the use of large numbers of land bots to get around the throttling of search requests.

Bots joining groups and sending group IMs or notices such that more than 5,000 individual messages will be received.

Bots sending more than 5,000 individual messages in a calendar day.

Using multiple bots to send an aggregate of more than 5,000 individual messages in a calendar day.

 

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots

 

And then there is this at the bottom of the wiki page I've linked a few times now.

Quote

Enforcement

Linden Lab routinely looks at search results, and will treat use of bots to gain an unfair search advantage as an abuse issue. You do not need to file an abuse report for violations; Linden Lab monitors the search results.

To begin, Linden Lab sends a warning message to the land owner. If the issue persists, then account suspension or removal from search may result. If you feel there has been an unfair decision in this regard, use the abuse appeals process.

Linden Lab routinely looks at message volume, and will treat use of bots to send excessive messages as an abuse issue. You do not need to file an abuse report for violations; Linden Lab monitors aggregate communication volume.

 

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ahah! Contrary to what Phil said, I could indeed change my own settings to self-identify as a scripted agent, a Bot. If I did so, it would mean that according to LL, I am officially a Bot no matter what anyone else says.

I didn't say that you couldn't change your status to 'scripted agent'. You asked me, "If I self-identify as a Bot, can others tell me that I’m not a Bot?", and I said yes. Then you asked me, "If a Bot tells people that it’s not a Bot, can others tell it that it is a Bot?" and I said no. I don't know where you got the idea that a person can't actually change their 'scripted agent' status, but it certainly wasn't from me. Anyone reading this thread knows that you can, simply because the OP changed most of her alts to scripted agent.

Yes, to LL you would be officially a robot, but that wouldn't make you a robot. To actually be a robot, your agent would have to be run by software and not by you. The LL documents linked to in this thread show that it's also LL's opinion. Changing your status does not make you a robot.

Earlier I suggested that Blush and I were looking at it in two differnt ways. I'm looking at it very literally. I just thought of another way in which it can be seen in different ways - the phrase 'scripted agent'. It's just a phrase. It could be any words that LL gave a meaning to for that particular useage; e.g. 'no traffic'. If by checking that setting, an avatar becomes a 'no traffic', it's fine. It's just a phrase of words that, to LL, that means don't count the traffic for it. It doesn't mean that the agent is a robot. By checking the 'scripted agent' status, the agent becomes a scripted agent in the same way. In this case, the phrase does have a meaning other than domn't count traffic, but it doesn't actually mean the agent is a robot.

So it could be argued that the setting is just a phrase that means don't count the traffic for it, while others argue that it actually does mean robot. I'm in the second camp, and I'm convinced that LL got the words wrong, especially when they have Lindens who don't know all the rules, and who, stupidly, make people change non-robots to robot status. All it does is give them that status. it does not make them robots.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/15/2019 at 7:26 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

Just keep in mind that if you do change an account to agent status and you use the account for personal use, that can also result in "disciplinary action" for misuse. Two edged sword, there.

I do agree with what you are saying on this topic, but not with the little bit I've quoted.

I don't believe that there can be any "misuse" of a scripted agent. A scripted agent doesn't have a particular use, so whatever it does can't be a misuse. The only reason why it came in was to stop counting the traffic of certain types of agents. It wasn't concerned with anything that agents do, so I don't agree that a non-traffic-counting agent is being misused by going out dancing, exploring, etc.

An example is Kali's army. The Linden who dealt with the OP (wrongly) had her change most of the army to scripted agent status, knowing that the human would still be operating each one of them so they weren't being used as bots. There would have been some sense in that if they were on search-enabled land so their traffic influenced the search results, but they weren't. The only reason for scripted agent status is traffic counting. It serves no other purpose at all, and it doesn't dictate what an agent can and cannot do in SL.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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8 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

An example is the OP's army. The Linden who dealt with the OP (wrongly) had ....

Still not gone back to the first page and read the actual OP ?

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8 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't believe that there can be any "misuse" of a scripted agent.

That isn't your call. It's LL's decision and they made it several years ago. Your interpretation does not (and should not) make any difference or have any influence.

There are many uses for bots. If you register a bot with the intent to use it a certain way and then later change that, it's still a bot, unless you change its status. Bots, in SL in particular, aren't intended to be used as a normal/personal account. When you use something outside of its original intent, in this case an unmanned account/avatar aka scripted agent being used as a normal account, you are misusing that something. Using a bot account as if it were a normal account or any other use outside of what LL approves, is misuse.

 

 

 

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Sometimes in a club I'd pretend to be a bot.

Creative solutions, interactive chat bot V 3.35: program: ON

Creative solutions, interactive chat bot V 3.35: random question generator: ON

Say, How do you think the local sports team is doing this year?

Isn't the weather crazy for this time of year?

What are your plans for the Holiday season?

Then spend the rest of your time trying to convince the other guests you AREN'T a bot.

:)

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1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Still not gone back to the first page and read the actual OP ?

Ooops. I meant Kali's army of course 😖

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That isn't your call. It's LL's decision and they made it several years ago. Your interpretation does not (and should not) make any difference or have any influence.

It's not an interpretation. LL has never said, or even hinted at, what we can and cannot do with agents that are registered as being scripted, so there's nothing to interpret. When an agent is registered as scripted it does NOT have to be run by a programme. The human is totally free to use it as s/he wishes, and LL has never said or hinted otherwise.

14 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

There are many uses for bots. If you register a bot with the intent to use it a certain way and then later change that, it's still a bot, unless you change its status. Bots, in SL in particular, aren't intended to be used as a normal/personal account. When you use something outside of its original intent, in this case an unmanned account/avatar aka scripted agent being used as a normal account, you are misusing that something. Using a bot account as if it were a normal account or any other use outside of what LL approves, is misuse.

Bots in SL are intended to be used exactly how the humans behind them wish. LL has no intentions or desires as to how bots are used in SL, other than that they are used legally. YOU are interpreting what LL has written, and your interpretation is wrong, I'm afraid. Actually, you're not really interpreting anything. You're believing something that has never been written or said. There is nothing whatsoever in any of LL's documents and statements that says that an agent that is registered as a scripted agent must be used as a bot. Nothing whatsoever. If you think differently, please link to it.

I'm sorry, but that's total rubbish. LL never introduced the 'scripted agent' status so that people could use bots in SL. Bots don't have to be registered as scripted agents! They introduced it solely to prevent bots (that were already being widely used in SL) from counting for traffic. That is ALL it was introduced for. LL does not run a bots system in SL. LL does NOT require agents that are registed as scripted agents to be used in any particular way, and not used in other ways.

I don't know how long you've been in SL, but you've certainly got the wrong end of the stick with this one, presumably because you weren't in SL when the scripted agent status was introduced. So I'll add a bit of history for you...

The search results were being manipulated by various things such as camping and traffic bots (I used traffic bots). People cried out about it, and eventually LL did something. They outlawed the manipulation of traffic on land that is set to show in search. We are free to manipulate as much traffic as we like, and by any means we like, on land that isn't set to show in search.

Banning camping and other such things on 'search' land was easy enough, but bots presented a problem. The problem was that there are valid reasons for bots to be on 'search' land. LL mentioned some of them in the document that you (I think) linked to. So they came up with a solution that would allow bots to be used on 'search' land, but without them affecting the traffic count. That was the 'scripted agent' status. It meant that bots could still be used on land that's set to show in search as long as they were registed as scripted agents. That's all it ever was, and it's all that it still is. You can search all the LL documents and forum posts you like but you'll never find anything that says that scripted agents must be used as bots, and must not be used as normal human-controlled agents.

You've misunderstood why LL introduced the scripted agent status. It wasn't because they wanted bots in SL. It was because bots were already in SL and LL didn't want the search results affected by them counting for traffic.

ETA: The reason why LL have never said or wanted scripted agents to be used as bots and not as normal agents is because, normal agents could affect the traffic and, therefore, unfairly affect the search results, but scripted agents can't do that. They can't do anything negative, so there's no need to state what they must be used for. Users can't see the status, so that isn't a reason either.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Using a bot account as if it were a normal account or any other use outside of what LL approves, is misuse.

I forgot this bit.

1. There is no such thing as a 'bot account'. There are user accounts, some of which the users have set the scripted agent status, and others haven't. They are all just ordinary accounts. There are no bot accounts.

2. LL approves of accounts that are set as scripted agents being used as bots (run by programmes), and human controlled (dancing, exploring, building, etc.). LL approves of it all, as long as the activities are legal.

If you still disagree, perhaps you'd like to page one or two forum Lindens to give their views.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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