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Rohan Dockal

Why is Second Life so laggy now compared to the past?

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Whatever the tech issues are, for the past two days for me its been much laggier than normal. Even on quiet sims when I turn the graphics up for a photo, even camming for a shot has been almost impossible.

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10 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

To be honest they should require from creators to enter the following:

  • Tri count used by each lod.
  • Number of textures and their size at any given time.
  • Number of scripts.

I like your idea of star rating. But if an item has no rating just put a big exclanation mark "the creator of this item has not supplied rating informations, buyer beware."

However I suspect showing the tricount of each lof won't help depending of the calculation method, showing the texture area might, but it also doesn't account for whether textures might be recycled across multiple items. Likewise, script count, while a useful indication, doesn't tell the full story.

Trouble is if you ask that much from creators it will only be more of a hassle and just annoy creators. Keeping it simple I believe would be better.

Also as far as I am aware, the display weight in the more info section takes all of what you have listed into consideration and just calculates a number like ARC but for objects. This includes taking into consideration number of textures, sizes, etc. Scripts would be the only thing I don't think it calculates therefore perhaps rather than the number of scripts the script kb usage in about land would be better and more impactful as that would tell the full story script wise.

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4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Also as far as I am aware, the display weight in the more info section takes all of what you have listed into consideration and just calculates a number like ARC but for objects. This includes taking into consideration number of textures, sizes, etc. Scripts would be the only thing I don't think it calculates therefore perhaps rather than the number of scripts the script kb usage in about land would be better and more impactful as that would tell the full story script wise.

It's also broken and non commital.

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6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Also as far as I am aware, the display weight in the more info section takes all of what you have listed into consideration...

Except it famously doesn't, especially regarding number and resolution of textures. (It kind of indirectly reflects the number of faces, but that offers no incentive to use fewer or less ridiculously hi-res textures on each face, including normal- and specular-maps.) Worse, though, the current display weight calculation actually provides an incentive for creators to supply degraded, trivial LoD models which drives users to crank up their viewer settings, hurting rendering performance for everything in the scene not merely the creation with the junky LoDs.

On the plus side, Script count is reflected in Land Impact calculations, specifically the Server weight. It's very crude, but it's better than nothing I guess.

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7 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

calculates a number like ARC but for objects

agree

i think this is where Linden should go with this.  It would be simpler for residents were attached objects to be measured in the same way as mounted objects. How the measurement is calculated i think is secondary to there being a consistent/relatable measure

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

agree

i think this is where Linden should go with this.  It would be simpler for residents were attached objects to be measured in the same way as mounted objects. How the measurement is calculated i think is secondary to there being a consistent/relatable measure

Interesting. I dunno, though. Physics is a real thing for free range objects, not at all for attachments.

That is a complication. 

Ignoring that, I'm not seeing reason for either model complexity (rendering, download) or scripts to be measured any differently for attachments. Maybe somebody knows reasons.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ignoring that, I'm not seeing reason for either model complexity (rendering, download) or scripts to be measured any differently for attachments. Maybe somebody knows reasons.

Render complexity is calculated by exactly the same formula for worn and rezzed objects. But some of the formula's major flaws only apply to fitted mesh so it's generally more reliable less unreliable for rezzed items than it is for avatars.

Download weight is not measured for avatars or worn items at all, only for rezzed ones.

There is no meaningful way to measure script load neither for avatars nor rezzed obejcts.

Edited by ChinRey
Typos
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49 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Render complexity is calculated by exactly the same formula for worn and rezzed objects. But some of the formula's major flaws only apply to fitted mesh so it's generally more reliable less unreliable for rezzed items than it is for avatars.

Download weight is not measured for avatars or worn items at all.

Okay, I'm confused. I was using "download weight" (aka "streaming cost") to refer to the corresponding factor in Land Impact, calculated this way for Mesh items. 

At least at one time, the "render complexity" of an attached item was only obtained from viewers that had rezzed the item into view. I've never cared much about it, so I wasn't even aware it was measured at the granularity of individual attachments rather than the avatar as a whole.

As far as I know, scripters have no way to get render complexity -- a major limitation of the current approach -- and for worn attachments OBJECT_ STREAMING_COST isn't meaningful.

I would have thought that these two things, "download weight" and "render complexity" would correlate very highly, and if there is anything specific to rendering it would be just as important to land impact as to avatar complexity. (I realize mesh deformations only obtain when worn, but I'm not sure it matters in the rare case somebody rezzes unattached weighted mesh... other than animesh, I guess, for which Land Impact seems arbitrary now.)

There might be some practical considerations. It would be a new complication of the building process if rezzed objects changed their Land Impact any time they're repainted with a different resolution texture, or different faces come to share the same texture -- but maybe that would be justified, and anyway we're accustomed to risking 1000-fold hikes in LI resulting from something as innocent as flipping a prim face from Blended to Masked alpha.

Presumably all this and more has been discussed by developers in the ARCTAN project.

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3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay, I'm confused. I was using "download weight" (aka "streaming cost") to refer to the corresponding factor in Land Impact, calculated this way for Mesh items.

Yes, that's the formula used for rezzed meshes. There are similar formulas for prims and sculpts. However, the formula is only used for rezzed objects. The streaming cost of worn objects is not measured at all.

 

9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

At least at one time, the "render complexity" of an attached item was only obtained from viewers that had rezzed the item into view.

The avatar render complexity you can see in your viewer is calculated by your viewer. But if the avatar wears any fitted mesh, the number you get is all but arbitary so the feature has no real value today.

 

13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

As far as I know, scripters have no way to get render complexity -- a major limitation of the current approach -- and for worn attachments OBJECT_ STREAMING_COST isn't meaningful.

OBJECT_STREAMING_COST is supposed to be the render complexity but because actual render cost of fitted mesh can't be calculated, the number is indeed meaningless.

The render cost value used for OBJECT_RENDER_COST used to be the average of the data retrieved from every single avatar in the region and in the neigbor regions. This included data from avatars well out of view distance (which of course returned 0 render cost) so that method was total idiocy. They've changed that at least - the value scripts operate with for your avatar is now the one they retireve from your viewer and your veiwer only - but since they haven't fixed the fitmesh issues yet, the number is still meaningless.

 

20 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I would have thought that these two things, "download weight" and "render complexity" would correlate very highly

There is some correlation between the two for mesh. Prims and sculpts have much lower download weight compared to their render complexity but the formulas take that into account. There is one huge divergence though (as well as several relatively minor ones): the calculated downlaod weight does not take textures into account.

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9 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The render cost value used for OBJECT_RENDER_COST used to be the average of the data retrieved from every single avatar in the region and in the neigbor regions. This included data from avatars well out of view distance (which of course returned 0 render cost) so that method was total idiocy. They've changed that at least - the value scripts operate with for your avatar is now the one they retireve from your viewer and your veiwer only - but since they haven't fixed the fitmesh issues yet, the number is still meaningless.

Now I have enough information to be even more confused. The viewer may well rely on solely its own measurements when reporting its idea of rendering weight. Scripts, on the other hand, operate on server-side data whether there are any viewers around at all, and OBJECT_RENDER_WEIGHT (which is only defined for the full avatar, and is distinct from the OBJECT_STREAMING_COST used for unattached objects) must return a value regardless of who might look at its result (or some later calculation on that result), so... does it really rely on the measurement reported by the one viewer connected to the avatar being measured?

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47 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

does it really rely on the measurement reported by the one viewer connected to the avatar being measured?

That is correct.

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5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Now I have enough information to be even more confused

me too :D

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Can someone explain why my main account suffers serious lag while my alts do not?

Everywhere I go I have to turn avatars off or it is almost impossible to move. Some shops are impossible for me to visit, for example Apple Fall.

When friends come online or go offline or even send me an IM, I freeze or crash. 

I've tried all things suggested and nothing works for my main alt, in the meantime,shopping is HARD work for me,  decorating my land is.

I kind of feel my account is screwed.....and it's a premium account too,my alts are not.....

The only problem may be my inventory, which has around 140.000 elements or the number of friends I have, close to 250 of which 3/4 are inactive.

Removing old pre-mesh stuff en friends is a hassle with the lag too

Is there a way to contact LL so they can check my account or something? I can't find anything so far...

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Suteruni Susanto said:

Can someone explain why my main account suffers serious lag while my alts do not?

Everywhere I go I have to turn avatars off or it is almost impossible to move. Some shops are impossible for me to visit, for example Apple Fall.

When friends come online or go offline or even send me an IM, I freeze or crash. 

I've tried all things suggested and nothing works for my main alt, in the meantime,shopping is HARD work for me,  decorating my land is.

I kind of feel my account is screwed.....and it's a premium account too,my alts are not.....

The only problem may be my inventory, which has around 140.000 elements or the number of friends I have, close to 250 of which 3/4 are inactive.

Removing old pre-mesh stuff en friends is a hassle with the lag too

Is there a way to contact LL so they can check my account or something? I can't find anything so far...

 

 

The accounts are probably on different servers. You can get LL to move the one with the issues but it's going to take a major effort on your part to get it done. 

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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1 hour ago, Suteruni Susanto said:

Can someone explain why my main account suffers serious lag while my alts do not?

They should perform identically. 

The larger inventory will take longer to fetch, but it shouldn't impact performance. It's not your friends list.

Install the Linden viewer, put both main and one alt in the same stock / test Linden avatar and then make sure that they both have identical settings. Take them to a repeatable test location with a minimum number of variables (an empty water sim like KARA) would be best.

Do the same things with the both accounts and make notes.

If there are still substantial differences and you have completely ruled out local settings, start a thread here.

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On 2/26/2019 at 12:30 AM, ChinRey said:

As Kyrah mentioned, even 16 GB may not be enough for SL. The moment the textures have to be  stored in regular slow RAM, you have to expect a significant drop in performance.

Yeah, this was my experience, too. I only have 8 GB RAM on my iMac and SL always slow down dramatically on overcrowded sims. Till I get more RAM, I made good experiences with closing all other programs while I am playing SL (also the apps which are running in background). And from time to time I am using a RAM cleaner to make space. Since I did this workaround, the performance of SL is much better than before ....

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I'm running 2 RAM sticks for a total of 24GB. Even so I consider this pc to be a tater and it's my most powerful one.

image.png.29dda92364826f348db23b4e5280c026.png

 

Graphics card is an ASUS GEFORCE GTX1050 OC 2GB

See? Tater. Yet, I rarely have issues with lag except on crowded sims, which is normal for any computer trying to run SL.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2019 at 11:19 AM, kiramanell said:

If more resources are required to get there, then the onus is on LL to provide/optimize, and not on the creators to restrain themselves (all the latter accomplishes anyway, is that it invites laziness on LL's end).

It very much is on us to restrain ourselves, we're the ones making the actual visual content that everyone's computer has to download at any given second.  From the models to their LOD and to the textures that coat em.

The coders can only do so much to cover for the mistakes of the artists.

We are equally parts responsible and at fault for a lot of the lag that plagues SL as we're the main ones making all of it the content that exists on it

If the mainland sims were completely wiped barren of everything currently on em, it'd probably run buttery smooth.

 

I wonder if it'd help if people started including pictures of their models wireframes and texture sizes on the MP

Edited by Digit Gears

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11 minutes ago, Digit Gears said:

It very much is on us to restrain ourselves, we're the ones making the actual visual content that everyone's computer has to download at any given second.  From the models to their LOD and to the textures that coat em.

The coders can only do so much to cover for the mistakes of the artists.

We are equally responsible and at fault for a lot of the lag that plagues SL as we're the main ones making all of it the content that exists on it

If the mainland sims were completely wiped barren of everything currently on em, it'd probably run buttery smooth.

 

I respectfully disagree. Creators shouldn't be needlessly sloppy, or have their products use more resources than is strictly required; but when it comes to technology, demand should always be the driving force behind supply -- not the other way around. Imagine Intel having said, "A 8086 should suffice; we shouldn't have to cover up the mistakes of coders; instead, ppl should just write less demaning software!" Clearly you can see how such a stance invites huge laziness on the suppliers of the hardware.

Beyond squandering resources, demand should simply be seen as a given: 'Anno 2019, visual quality X requires Y amount of hardware/texture memory, etc.' And yes, LL should be the one to supply, and not incite creators to just use a little less resources.

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1 hour ago, Digit Gears said:

It very much is on us to restrain ourselves,

 

58 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

I respectfully disagree.

Ideally, we would be smarter about our content creation, but the reality is that very few people will do this even if everyone was well aware of why they should. That is why it's on LL to step in and put their foot down. That is the only way any meaningful change will occur. Of course, the trick is figuring out how to do so without upending nearly two decades of user created content and causing the userbase to riot. But there are ways they can achieve that.

I like the suggestions people have made regarding information on the marketplace. I've also pushed for LL to create an official "content creation" blog. In terms of "ARC for non-attachments", we have that already. It's called "Land Impact". It's just really poorly implemented (it ignores texture use entirely, for instance).

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37 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

I respectfully disagree. Creators shouldn't be needlessly sloppy, or have their products use more resources than is strictly required; but when it comes to technology, demand should always be the driving force behind supply -- not the other way around. Imagine Intel having said, "A 8086 should suffice; we shouldn't have to cover up the mistakes of coders; instead, ppl should just write less demaning software!" Clearly you can see how such a stance invites huge laziness on the suppliers of the hardware.

Beyond squandering resources, demand should simply be seen as a given: 'Anno 2019, visual quality X requires Y amount of hardware/texture memory, etc.' And yes, LL should be the one to supply, and not incite creators to just use a little less resources.

It's all a balancing act though, why should LL be the only ones having to fix things while the content creators get lazy? Like I said, we are equally at fault for the lag by being lazy with optimization. It won't matter how much LL tries to pick up the slack if the people making stuff just use it as an excuse to make even bigger drains on the resources, thus making LL have to constantly be chasing that 'slack'

Avatars need some sort of LI system of it's own like land. People making stuff for sim building, decor, etc, have to keep that in mind when making stuff, surely it'd be only fair those making stuff for avatars also have to keep some limit in mind beyond just how many attachments someone can have. 

It wasn't much of an issue in the past when it was just prims and a fixed limit of what ever attachment points themselves were available with a cap of around 250 for linked. But that's not been the case for quite some time. Now it's a max of like 30 attachments in total, letting you stack how ever many things you'd like on a single one while the items themselves can have tons and tons of textures and polygons.

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On 8/9/2019 at 10:42 AM, Suteruni Susanto said:

Can someone explain why my main account suffers serious lag while my alts do not?

 

 

It could be what your avatar is wearing. A lot of SL avatars are their own worst source of graphics related lag and it's very difficult to pinpoint what one is wearing that is the problem. LL really needs to give us better tools.

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1 hour ago, kiramanell said:

Beyond squandering resources, demand should simply be seen as a given: 'Anno 2019, visual quality X requires Y amount of hardware/texture memory, etc.' And yes, LL should be the one to supply, and not incite creators to just use a little less resources.

You mean they should supply the hardware? I'm all for that! ;)

But seriously, how do you define visual quality X? Which factors are significant? To me fast loading, smooth frame rate and long draw distance with no annoying distortions are the most vital parts of high visual quality because I want to travel around in big landscapes that feel as real (but not necessarily realistic) as possible. Other SL users who spend most of their time in the same small confined space (I think they are the majority these days) will have completely different priorites.

Even if we agreed on the criteria for visual quality, there's still a question how high we should aim. There is no limit to how great we all want SL to look but there is a limit to how much even the biggest render farm in the world can possibly handle.

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Things in SL seem to get laggier because more of it seems to be built for static Flickr pictures, not for actually living the Second Live in it? That's my hypothesis.

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6 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Things in SL seem to get laggier because more of it seems to be built for static Flickr pictures, not for actually living the Second Live in it? That's my hypothesis.

Was a thing a friend once said to me "People keep making stuff that's film ready instead of making stuff game ready"

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