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Rohan Dockal

Why is Second Life so laggy now compared to the past?

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8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

it created an enormously important industry in Second Life

Did it? Or did it drive many creators to stop creating because the market for prim creations vanished due to mesh?

We can do the "what if" thing all day long but it won't accomplish anything.

And if I'm not making any sense... sorry. I should have shut down and hour ago.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Right, exactly.

So . . . that's obviously a good thing for me: it's that much less that I would have spent on my two avatars.

But . . . not so good for the SL economy. Or for LL. And, arguably, in the long run, for anyone using the platform: the SL economy is the machine that makes everything work.

I wouldn't necessarily say its a bad thing for linden lab. If Linden Lab redo the system body now, whatever body you have bought would still be yours (to keep using to the detriment of others performance), whilst new users would get a far better experience of creating their own unique avatar helping user retention without the looming $ sign dropping on them when they realise it will cost them quite a lot to look good like it does now. A plus for LL and SL in general.

Now as to the Second life Economy I would dare say it would be far more beneficial and will only affect the profits of the body and head creators. As it stands now, with the disunity the multiple mesh bodies create in the market it is hindering creation as well as the economy of both users and Linden Lab.

If I buy a Jake body, I have to go around endlessly trying to find decent clothing just for that body. The newer the body the less chance of clothing to be found and the higher the risk of buying a body that wont be popular and will see very little clothing for. This means that you are reducing the market share of the economy and consequently limiting the amount people are willing to spend.

Due to the high cost of a head and body most people will buy one of each and stick with it. If they cant find enough clothes for it I would dare say they would grin and bare it and just not put as much money into spending on clothes for that body. On the other hand, if the system body was completely redone to look up to par with the current mesh bodies on offer, this would mean, not only a free body but also more options clothing wise, the ability to keep track better on optimisation, the ability to add new features that benefit the body without having to think of the what affect it would have on other mesh bodies etc.

At the moment if I like a item of clothing, it may not be compatible with my mesh body, I therefore may choose not to buy it or anything that week. On the other hand if I have a default system body, all creators items will be solely for that body meaning more choice and more potential profit for both users and LL. It would also probably get more people into making things for bodies as well as they only need to concentrate on one type.

The only market the rework of the system body will affect is the mesh body creators. People will still create tattoos, make-up, clothes, hats, shoes, eyes, skins etc. for the new default body and all the while there will be more choice due to creators only needing to create for one body meaning more people buying things.

That's how I see it anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What I'm sort of suggesting, though . . . although, as I say, I'm kind of playing devil's advocate . . . is that it was actually a good thing that they did. Because it created an enormously important industry in Second Life that otherwise would simply not have existed.

Yes but the question is what would have existed instead. There's no way of knowing of course.

Speaking of system vs mesh avatars - although way off on a tangent. I've been visiting some ... ummm relaxing sims with sandy ground and limited clothing ... recently using pure system avatars - self-made shapes and everything else old freebies or starter avatar components. Those avatars get just as much "attention" from the other sex (that is a bit more than I'd prefer) as my modern mesh ones but the quality of the IMs is noticeably higher. There's an important lesson there: if you're thinking of upgrading your avatar with thsouands of Lindens worth of fitted mesh, do it for your own sake or not at all. Very few other people care.

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32 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

If Linden Lab redo the system body now, whatever body you have bought would still be yours

Yes but a thorough system avatar upgrade would require changes to the skeleton, not just a better mesh skin (although that would help a lot too). The scales of some of the parameters ought to be adjusted to bring them into a more useable range and there should be a few more modifiers too. I'm thinking of ear position (today's position may be good for pointy elf ears but way too low on the head for realistic human ones) and even more important, individual adjustments for length and width of hands and feet. I'm not sure if such changes would break existing mesh body parts but they might.

 

41 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

As it stands now, with the disunity the multiple mesh bodies create in the market it is hindering creation as well as the economy of both users and Linden Lab.

An upgraded system avatar would certainly make clothes creation a lot easier but would it increase the sales? Who knows? It seems to me that the amount of money a user spends in SL is fairly constant, if they spend less on one thing, they spend more on something else. But that's jsut my impression, I have no data to confirm it.

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19 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but a thorough system avatar upgrade would require changes to the skeleton, not just a better mesh skin (although that would help a lot too). The scales of some of the parameters ought to be adjusted to bring them into a more useable range and there should be a few more modifiers too. I'm thinking of ear position (today's position may be good for pointy elf ears but way too low on the head for realistic human ones) and even more important, individual adjustments for length and width of hands and feet. I'm not sure if such changes would break existing mesh body parts but they might.

But that's the problem. They are to scared to break content and therefore negatively impacts everything.

In addition to the body skeleton, I still think they need a duplicate skeleton just for clothing that has an even larger range than the body skeleton.

The problem we have now is that when I wear a fitted mesh body and a fitted mesh clothing item they move together. This means that the mesh clothing item has to be made specifically for that particular mesh body so that when adjusting the body sliders the clothing doesn't clip with the body.

By implementing a separate additional and modifiable skeleton just for clothing that is offset slightly further from the body as far as usable range goes, it would mean that I could then have separate sliders to control my body and then an additional slider set to adjust the clothing skeleton. This is the only way to make it so that clothing can be used irrespective of what bought body you buy.

It would also be usable with an upgraded default body as well as it would mean the clothing made for other bought mesh bodies would work for the upgraded default body.

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21 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

The problem we have now is that when I wear a fitted mesh body and a fitted mesh clothing item they move together. This means that the mesh clothing item has to be made specifically for that particular mesh body so that when adjusting the body sliders the clothing doesn't clip with the body.

I think the idea is that an upgraded system body would make mesh bodies redundant, at least for relatively "normal" human avatars. That would of course collapse the mesh body/head business so it's not going to happen. It was a great idea before mesh bodies became the norm, now it's too late.

 

38 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

By implementing a separate additional and modifiable skeleton just for clothing that is offset slightly further from the body as far as usable range goes, it would mean that I could then have separate sliders to control my body and then an additional slider set to adjust the clothing skeleton. This is the only way to make it so that clothing can be used irrespective of what bought body you buy.

Oh no, that would only make matters worse. Offset is just a minor issue, rigging is the big one. It's not just the bones that need to match, every single vertice of a piece of clothing has to be weighted to match the body it's rigged for. Adding a third (or is it fourth) skeleton to the avatar would only result in an even more complicated rig.

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4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So . . . I'll be something of a devil's advocate here for a moment.

Suppose LL had updated the standard avatar, and brought it up to the visual standards (at presumably less processing cost) of mesh bodies, heads, and other body parts.

What happens to the mesh body and head industry in Second Life? It has to be one of the most lucrative and thriving sectors of the SL economy now, even if the lack of standardization for rigging has introduced all sorts of unnecessary inefficiencies into the production of apparel, skin, and avatar accessories.

Do you think that residents would have found other places to spend the L$10000+ that it currently costs many of us to go mesh? Would the economy have bustled in other ways to compensate for it?

Or would that have been that much less money introduced into the economy? Speaking personally, I don't think I'd have devoted the money I spent on a mesh body, head, etc., to other stuff -- not most of it, anyway. I would be much less of a "consumer" here were I able to rely on a freely available and high-quality default avatar.

 

Hehe, you have no idea how right you really are! 🥰 I dropped nearly $LL 20,000, yesterday, on getting my own pretty little Bento Catwa head (and Maitreya body, and skin, appliers, and... everything). proudly stepping into the 21st century. :)

It's been bit of a mess getting there, with all sorts of growing pains arriving at more or less standardized way of doing things. Had LL provided these high quality standards to their default avi, I would have likely spent... zero on that. Looking good has probably never been this expensive, but that's exactly what they want, of course: a thriving economy!

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6 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Did it? Or did it drive many creators to stop creating because the market for prim creations vanished due to mesh?

For some not too strange reason, this reminds me of Douglas Adams' Shoe Event Horizon tale.

 

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23 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

For some not too strange reason, this reminds me of Douglas Adams' Shoe Event Horizon tale.

 

Thanks for the link, I remembered the story but it was refreshing to re-read. 

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11 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

"You have reached your avatar polygon quota."

That's not user friendly at all.

What's a polygon and how do I get more .. why do I even need to know this to talk to my friends .. but I just bought this hat .. I saw my friend with that hat and those shoes and you're telling me I can't wear both .. Dear Contentcreator, I just bought your hat, but I'm out of polygones, I'd like a refund please .. My friends are going to come to your store and tell everyone not to buy your stuff because it cant be worn and it's too many polygones, Lindan Labs will ban you .. here is a picture of my naked avatar, I can't wear your hat it says I have no more pols .. whast do you mean I have to take my d*** off, cut our own ********* ****** d*** off ...

 

 

11 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

hat's a different case. Its not necessarily a hack. It was a necessity or byproduct of negligence.

That's it right there ... it's not an ugly hack if you like it, it's Lindy Lab's fault.

It's not your fault if the widely adopted ugly hack cripples render performance, it's Lindy Lab's fault.

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1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

That's it right there ... it's not an ugly hack if you like it, it's Lindy Lab's fault.

It's not your fault if the widely adopted ugly hack cripples render performance, it's Lindy Lab's fault.

Oh please. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I have never said I didn't like people using mesh bodies created by users, I have also never said I was against them. 

Sure I may have said that they were heavy on performance and the way they are now is limiting certain aspects as far as choice and creation goes, but why would I be proposing ideas in my latest post about ways to have clothing work for current mesh bodies (and an updated default body) if I was so hell bent on removing them.

Am I advocate for a new default body? Yes, as it will be beneficial for the new user experience and help user retention. Who knows, it may also set a base line for mesh body creators to optimised things further and provide some competition.

Do I think the mesh bodies as they are now need to be looked at to help performance and optimisation? Yes. That doesn't mean I think they should be removed from second life as I think they serve a purpose (I know, shocking!) . Do I think BoM will solve the optimisation issues of the bodies? No, I don't think it will have any effect what so ever on optimisation and performance.

Also, I have never said the onion layered body was a hack. That is your words not mine. I believe that the body was created all within the bounds of allowances Linden Lab provide, unlike megaprims that were created through work arounds or 'hacks'. That said, I also believe that by Linden Lab not restricting some elements of the mesh upload and having to highly set allowances resulted in a lot of poorly optimised content and bodies.

It is a fact that the better looking onion layered bodies were a necessity created solely due to Linden Lab ignoring years of requests to update the ugly and outdated system avatar. People didn't like it so they created something better and I am glad they did. They then realised that textures and skins would need to work independently from each other so adapted from there. It was all a necessity that may or may never have happened to the extent it has if the default avatar offered a similar solution.

Keep in mind the buck has to stop with someone and it generally cant be the user it always stops at the company.

Sorry for the rant and if I took your post the wrong way I apologise, but I don't like people putting words in my mouth or saying what I do and don't like.

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Even if LL were to update and improve the avatars and the avatar system, that wouldn't necessarily mean creators would have to stop making heads and bodies or complete bodies (using the LL avatar as a base and/or import). No reason anyone with a bit of imagination couldn't continue creating and selling them. A little oneupmanship between LL and creators won't kill the grid. It might even help it to grow, which is the ultimate goal. Growth and sustainability.

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56 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

megaprims that were created through work arounds or 'hacks'

We had so called megaprims back in the day. Then LL took them away so creators gave them back. Then LL woke up and gave them back. My point being we had megas to being with and LL saw fit to place restrictions on size and after LL saw the demand, they removed the size constraints (or increased them).

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Even if LL were to update and improve the avatars and the avatar system, that wouldn't necessarily mean creators would have to stop making heads and bodies or complete bodies (using the LL avatar as a base and/or import). No reason anyone with a bit of imagination couldn't continue creating and selling them. A little oneupmanship between LL and creators won't kill the grid. It might even help it to grow, which is the ultimate goal. Growth and sustainability.

Interesting thought. It might depend on two things: first, on how customizable the new standard avatar was (if you can't get the boobs and hips the way you want, then there will certainly be room for some kind of competition), and second, on whether a competing mesh body ends up being supported by clothing makers.

One reason why I think LL should seriously consider a major mesh redo of the standard avatar is that competition amongst mesh body makers seems to be rapidly diminishing, and maybe disappearing. Yes, there is still a fair bit of support for three models of women's body, and even a little bit of new support for the TMP Legacy, but increasingly I'm seeing clothing that is made only for Maitreya Lara.

And that's bad. Good, I suppose, in that it makes life easier for apparel makers and enforces a kind of standardization for rigging, but really bad in that a monopoly or near-monopoly position by one maker of something so important puts an immense amount of power in the hands of that one creator. If Maitreya ever completely eclipses the competition -- and clothing makers seem to be almost ensuring that this eventually happens -- it will basically be able to decide who lives and who dies among apparel creators. So, creators who rig only for Maitreya are doing themselves, and the platform, no favours in the long term.

If we get to that sort of situation, I'd say LL had better step in, or they too will find themselves in the thrall of a single content creator. That's how important mesh bodies are now.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

increasingly I'm seeing clothing that is made only for Maitreya Lara.

I'm seeing the opposite. lol I'm seeing more and more creators who are creating for the top 4 or 5 (maybe 3?) than just Maitreya. And I have the Lara on this account. My others have the Ebody, which I've discovered some of the clothes made for Lara will fit the Ebody. While I won't say the quality of the Ebody is quite on par with the Lara, they are pretty damn close, imo. I do wish more creators would produce for the Ebody.

I do agree with what you've said. I was hoping someone would pick up on it. People don't seem to take that sort of thing from me very kindly no matter how carefully I word it.

They went down that road once with Anshe. Hopefully they learned their lesson from it and won't repeat that mistake. Thankfully, the Anshe dollar never made it out of the starting gate.

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Totally against a standard decent mesh body from sl. dont want attack of the clones which is what it will result in when people can get mesh for nothing. Its bad enough already

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We already have "standard mesh bodies" from SL. Nothing wrong with making them decent(er). When you get down to the nitty gritty, it's all a form of mesh; terrain, prims, sculpts... the whole works is mesh in one form or another.

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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

We already have "standard mesh bodies" from SL. Nothing wrong with making them decent(er). When you get down to the nitty gritty, it's all a form of mesh; terrain, prims, sculpts... the whole works is mesh in one form or another.

I did say "decent" mesh bodies

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

I did say "decent" mesh bodies

 

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Nothing wrong with making them decent(er).

 

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On 8/2/2019 at 3:02 AM, ChinRey said:

An upgraded system avatar would certainly make clothes creation a lot easier but would it increase the sales? Who knows? It seems to me that the amount of money a user spends in SL is fairly constant, if they spend less on one thing, they spend more on something else. But that's jsut my impression, I have no data to confirm it.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I bought a LOT more clothes, shoes, skins, make-up, tattoos, everything, when I had my system body, because the selection was so much larger. A lot of the clothes and shoes were as expensive as mesh stuff. I buy far less now because I can't find the stuff I like, especially if I stick to my body (and it is Lara, which I guess is the most popular). Also, unless the clothes are specifically Lara, I have to deal with only having ten Alpha slots. I have spent lots of time slowly, painfully clicking body segments to hide. And in many (most?) cases, the segments don't line up with the clothes. On top of that, I have Slink feet, and many tall boots that fit the Slink feet don't fit the Lara legs, and again, the Alpha segments don't line up. And I stick with the same skin because of having to fight with appliers.

Perhaps a lot of my problem is ignorance, that would not surprise me. I know I spent a huge amount of time tracking down info on bodies and how to make everything work together. Maybe there is a guide out there that I didn't find, or that exists now but didn't when I got started with my mesh bodies (even something simple like adding instead of attaching can make a big difference). You had to know some stuff to use the old bodies and clothes, and it could be a nightmare making clothes fit, but it all seemed a lot more straight-forward.

Wrt money, I do somewhat limit my spending in SL. I tend to spend most of my money on tips, and balance clothes and accessories against that. I *will* throw money at a special project like upgrading my avi and skin, and sometimes go on a spending spree for clothes and accessories. I actually bought I think three different mesh bodies before I settled on the Lara. I hear the heads are extremely expensive, and tedious to customize, so I am not sure if I am going to take that step.

So, I don't know. SL would perhaps have made more money from me with a better standard avi that use prim clothes, or maybe not when you consider how expensive it is to buy a mesh body (though standard bodies from vendors were pricey, too). Most people love mesh bodies and clothes, though, so probably LL has made more money from the mesh route both through a more robust economy and also by having more people participating in SL.

FWIW :)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

Totally against a standard decent mesh body from sl. dont want attack of the clones which is what it will result in when people can get mesh for nothing. Its bad enough already

The way I see it, it's not about creating a standardized mesh body for everybody, it's about creating a new and more detailed system body with all the modifying parameters the existing system body has and a few more. In other words, the idea is to allow for more variety, not less.

In theory mesh bodies and body parts are just as adjustable as the system body is but in reality they aren't. There were far less "clones" back in the days before fitted mesh.

Edited by ChinRey
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42 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I bought a LOT more clothes, shoes, skins, make-up, tattoos, everything, when I had my system body, because the selection was so much larger.

I too bought far more clothes for my system avis than I do for my mesh ones. But it may be just because I've become jaded. Shopping and dressing up my avatar used to be fun, now it's just boring and the less time I waste on it, the better.

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25 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The way I see it, it's not about creating a standardized mesh body for everybody, it's about creating a new and more detailed system body with all the modifying parameters the existing system body has and a few more. In other words, the idea is to allow for more variety, not less.

agree

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41 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The way I see it, it's not about creating a standardized mesh body for everybody, it's about creating a new and more detailed system body with all the modifying parameters the existing system body has and a few more. In other words, the idea is to allow for more variety, not less.

In theory mesh bodies and body parts are just as adjustable as the system body is but in reality they aren't. There were far less "clones" back in the days before fitted mesh.

As far as I can tell my mesh body responds to all the sliders perfectly well. The fact that some mesh bodies may not is down to the creators

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9 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

As far as I can tell my mesh body responds to all the sliders perfectly well. The fact that some mesh bodies may not is down to the creators

Really? What happens when you tweak the Hair settings (other than some of the Eyebrows sliders)? What happens when you apply the tint slider for the skin hidden under the mesh?

I'm not really talking about adjustability here, though; presumably those customizations can be achieved by other means (perhaps involving thousands of L$s to get just the same effect, but still possible); rather, I'm fussing about the utter incomprehensibility of the multiple incompatible layers of avatar customization that make the whole of SL so hopelessly unapproachable for newbies.

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