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StLoUieYaBisH

Complexity and what it means , Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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So I was out and about and I noticed that lately that a lot of things weren't loading in fast as usual and I seen this person and they were Blue and Super Laggy and i asked then about it and they said it was my complexity . So heres my Questions.???

1) What exactly is complexity ?

2) How does this effect my character and my game play ?

3) How do I fix it and where in game do i see what my complexity levels are or the location of my complexity ? 

 Ive seen alot of people with Their names above them and sometimes it says their complexity and its like 300,000+ or - . I'm  just new to the game ,  like 2 and a half weeks new and trying to figure out everything i can about his game because its got me hook already.

 Again thanks for any advice and its very much appreciated.

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So, this page might help you out with most of your questions: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_Rendering_Complexity

But, to put it simple, complexity is how heavy your avatar is. It means that the mesh you're wearing was not optimized and has way too many LODs (Level of Detail). That means, the more detailed the object is, the slower it is for the simulator to load it.

I got this example from Google Image search:

 PbEriJ6.jpg

At the far left, that's the highest level of complexity. That means others will rez that slower than they would with the one on the far right.

 

I wish that creators would put in their product description the complexity value or even other information that would help one decide if it's worth buying or not. See, right now, my avatar's complexity is around 40000, which is not a bad value and I'm fairly well dressed (nothing over the top but also not naked).

pzsjIek.png

I'm wearing shoes, btw, they are just transparent :9

 

I do have a specific piece of jewelry that I even discussed with the creator because it added to my avatar 40000 of complexity. I'll wear it now without removing anything to show the difference.

A3mxUPu.png

CAxiDJc.png

It's a beautiful peace, but do you see those tiny diamonds? He could have simplified them but they are extremely detailed. Activating wireframe option you can see that it's basically as solid as the regular view:

L7xlV4g.png

Which increases the weight of my avatar when someone has to rez me on their screen. That's why I don't use this piece but I always keep it with me to show as an example. Creator tried to offer me a gift and he seemed to be generally "nice" about me saying that this is way too complex but I'm not sure if he changed his point of view on his other products and worked to make them lighter.

Edited by Sylvannas Zulaman
Fixing 'shoes'
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The solid colored avatars is because they are too high in complexity to load for your graphics. It is not the avatars computer or graphics - they want to use all the nice stuff on their avatar they have bought, and does not care if others do not see them. It is a bit of superiority I assume - they think it is your problem if you can't see them. It is not you wearing too high complexity if they can see you , and you not see them.

And they are right in a way, they are not responsible for others view of the game, it is a bit selfish, though. Many has the view that avatars should lower their complexity so all can render them, as a community solidarity, but that will never be enforced by Linden Lab. You can go to Preferences > Graphics > Maximum Avatar Complexity and move the slider up to a higher number. This will probably make you lag more. If you move the Maximum Avatar Complexity up and your performance get bad, then you can't do much other things with it than improve your computer, or just tolerate the solid colored avatars.

I will suggest that you let the high number avatars be. Unless they are your friends and you want to render them fully and not the other high number avatars. You can click on your friend and choose "always render fully" and this will make them stay rendered for this session. I think you must do it again when you log off and in again, but it is not so much work.

The small number in the upper right corner of your screen when you change something on your avatar, show your own Maximum Avatar Complexity. If it is under 80 000, you are rendered correctly for most of SL. Some will try to use SL on a really bad computer, and they will always have problems rendering you even if you go really low.

I hope you get at least some idea about question 2 and 3. I think the answer to 1 is how hard it is to render or draw an avatar. The higher number, the more it demands of computers, their memory, graphic card and even connection. Second Life has user-created content, and creators can make really bad or really good content. Easy to render or hard to render. It is not so much to do about it, it is LL that want it this way, let creativity flourish and all that. You can demo things and see how high the numbers go up. Use demos, I have seen a dress make my complexity jump high, but older jewelry and hair can be the worst. At least you can demo hair.

Sorry if I am not making any sense, English isn't my first language and I am tired after a long week. I hope others can explain it better.

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1 hour ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

I seen this person and they were Blue and Super Laggy and i asked then about it and they said it was my complexity

Just to clarify this: they were blue not because of your own complexity, but because of your complexity settings. Your own complexity is definitely something you can keep under control, by wearing optimised content. The reason you saw that person as blue (and they were probably a jerky blue 'blob' - which is nicknamed a 'jellydoll' within the SL community) is because their own complexity was higher than you have your viewer set up to render. You can choose the level at which you render avatars around you. It's not recommended to use the 'unlimited' option, since there are griefers around who will happily use graphics crashers, just for fun.

Edited by Skell Dagger
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2 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

Just to clarify this: they were blue not because of your own complexity, but because of your complexity settings. Your own complexity is definitely something you can keep under control, by wearing optimised content. The reason you saw that person as blue (and they were probably a jerky blue 'blob' - which is nicknamed a 'jellydoll' within the SL community) is because their own complexity was higher than you have your viewer set up to render. You can choose the level at which you render avatars around you. It's not recommended to use the 'unlimited' option, since there are griefers around who will happily use graphics crashers, just for fun.

Ahhh Ok Well How do I set the complexity settings then ? Where do I go to do so ?

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20 minutes ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

Ahhh Ok Well How do I set the complexity settings then ? Where do I go to do so ?

Ctrl+P to open your Preferences window if you're in Windows. On the Graphics tab you'll find a slider to increase or decrease the complexity you want to render/hide. Might have to click "show advanced" in case your graphic options are hidden.

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I've only just begun to understand complexity. And having recently adopted Firestorm I'm more aware of my avi complexity. The recent Genus head upgrade made a huge difference by taking 30,000 off each saved outfit. Because I work with saved outfits I now have the complexity in each file name for my information.

Generally I'm in the 40,000 bracket. A small number of complex outfits edge over 100,00 but I think that's OK.

I did see a blue/green blob last week and she was well over 300,000. I didn't bother rezzing her.........

:)

 

Edited by BelindaN

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4 hours ago, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

it added to my avatar 40000

After a discussion of  wedding rings  in the forums and their cost, I looked on MP for a cheep, but nice wedding ring, I found one that looked fabulous for only a few lindens,  I bought it to see if it looked as fabulous in world, as it  did in the MP picture,  and indeed it did, however it increased my complexity by over 400,000

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Lots of the older stuff is very complex, but at the same time very beautiful. I've run across many such items while cleaning inventory.  If I really love it, I'll create an outfit for a picture and then file it away for nostalgia.  This is one such outfit - the gown is truly gorgeous and flows wonderful for dancing, but it comes in at a bit over 2,000,000 CI on its own.  I paired it with some pretty high CI hair & jewelry, resulting in this outfit having a total CI of 2,884,640.

1323840683_20180121-OldExtremelyHighCIOutfit.thumb.jpg.ebe4d9b2b33f1e9bfc3ea3b8fa443cf9.jpg

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Complexity in general is a lie, at the moment.

Not only is it based on the average of each viewer reporting their own complexity calculations of others (so a malicious viewer could technically falsely report avatars as far higher complexity than they should be), but it is also incredibly easy for creators to exploit the complexity algorithm by making 1-3 of the 4 levels of detail as low as possible, leaving only the 1-2 highest levels "visible."

I wrote more about real examples of this in an older thread: 

 

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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6 hours ago, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

Ctrl+P to open your Preferences window if you're in Windows. On the Graphics tab you'll find a slider to increase or decrease the complexity you want to render/hide. Might have to click "show advanced" in case your graphic options are hidden.

Ok cool Thanks ! So How do I check My own Complexity?

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Very Helpful Info from EVERYONE , Thanks so much , If anyone can tell me how to check my own complexity that would be awesome. Im not sure because of so many comments that how to check my own, I figured out how to set Maximum complexity of others 

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21 minutes ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

Very Helpful Info from EVERYONE , Thanks so much , If anyone can tell me how to check my own complexity that would be awesome. Im not sure because of so many comments that how to check my own, I figured out how to set Maximum complexity of others 

In Firestorm, it is on the General tab of Preferences - it will display above your head

image.png.0494893780bbc48be053ef911050b132.png

 

For the SL Viewer, I'm not sure.

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When you wear or take off things from your avatar, look in the upper right corner. The message of your avatar complexity is shown there, but only some seconds.

This is for the default SL viewer. Or at least it was, I have not used the default SL viewer in a long time.

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4 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

When you wear or take off things from your avatar, look in the upper right corner. The message of your avatar complexity is shown there, but only some seconds.

This is for the default SL viewer. Or at least it was, I have not used the default SL viewer in a long time.

Yeah that still happens with the SL viewer.

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On 2/23/2019 at 6:00 AM, Marianne Little said:

The solid colored avatars is because they are too high in complexity to load for your graphics. It is not the avatars computer or graphics - they want to use all the nice stuff on their avatar they have bought, and does not care if others do not see them. It is a bit of superiority I assume - they think it is your problem if you can't see them. It is not you wearing too high complexity if they can see you , and you not see them.

And they are right in a way, they are not responsible for others view of the game, it is a bit selfish, though. Many has the view that avatars should lower their complexity so all can render them, as a community solidarity, but that will never be enforced by Linden Lab. You can go to Preferences > Graphics > Maximum Avatar Complexity and move the slider up to a higher number. This will probably make you lag more. If you move the Maximum Avatar Complexity up and your performance get bad, then you can't do much other things with it than improve your computer, or just tolerate the solid colored avatars.

I will suggest that you let the high number avatars be. Unless they are your friends and you want to render them fully and not the other high number avatars. You can click on your friend and choose "always render fully" and this will make them stay rendered for this session. I think you must do it again when you log off and in again, but it is not so much work.

The small number in the upper right corner of your screen when you change something on your avatar, show your own Maximum Avatar Complexity. If it is under 80 000, you are rendered correctly for most of SL. Some will try to use SL on a really bad computer, and they will always have problems rendering you even if you go really low.

I hope you get at least some idea about question 2 and 3. I think the answer to 1 is how hard it is to render or draw an avatar. The higher number, the more it demands of computers, their memory, graphic card and even connection. Second Life has user-created content, and creators can make really bad or really good content. Easy to render or hard to render. It is not so much to do about it, it is LL that want it this way, let creativity flourish and all that. You can demo things and see how high the numbers go up. Use demos, I have seen a dress make my complexity jump high, but older jewelry and hair can be the worst. At least you can demo hair.

Sorry if I am not making any sense, English isn't my first language and I am tired after a long week. I hope others can explain it better.

So you made this comment "The solid colored avatars is because they are too high in complexity to load for your graphics.". So are you talking about My graphics as in my computers GPU because if so that cant be right because i have a BEAST GPU or are you talking about my Graphics settings in game ? Other than that You all have said some things that have helped me out tremendously and I appreciate it. Thanks for all the input , so helpful

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52 minutes ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

So are you talking about My graphics as in my computers GPU because if so that cant be right because i have a BEAST GPU or are you talking about my Graphics settings in game ?

As I mentioned earlier, it's your settings. Depending on which viewer you're using, you can alter those settings so that you can view people with any number of complexity. Like you, I have a gaming rig with a "beast GPU", but I still usually keep my settings for viewing others capped at around 150,000 to 200,000 and the only jellydoll avatars that I see tend to be way over 300,000 and wearing old flexihair or complex jewellery. And, with regard to my own complexity, I try to keep that below 75,000. Usually I'm around 50,000.

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Wow, great discussion about Complexity!  I have a few things to add (so, Lindal, what else is new?)

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1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Wow, Lil!  Almost 3 million from a dress!  You're getting up into graphics crasher territory there.

Yeah, I choked a bit when I tried it on while going through old items for clean-out.  I loved the way it flowed though. So I set up an outfit & took a pic, and then tossed it into my 'Keep for nostalgia but Never wear' folder (because some things I just like too much to trash, even if I won't ever wear them again).  

I actually find quite a few old items with pretty high CI values while cleaning out old inventory folders, though no others have managed to cross the 2 million mark, and only a few have crossed the 1 million mark.  If I like the outfit, then it gets tossed into a folder where I eventually figure out accessories for it and take a pic.  Then it goes into the Nostalgia folder, never to be worn again.  I did a picture of a gorgeous Christmas gown over the holidays that came in at just shy of 600,000.  

Given how much I used to buy super flowy gowns, I have no doubt that I'l find more of those really high CI outfits as I continue to work my way through the old stuff. 

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2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Your own complexity does not affect your performance, but it can affect how others see you, and it can affect THEIR viewer's performance.

Of course your own attachments (even your HUDs) affects the performance of your viewer.

You don't think rendering yourself is somehow magically free and instant for your computer, do you?

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Wow, great discussion about Complexity!  I have a few things to add (so, Lindal, what else is new?)

Yeah that makes plenty of sense. Thank you and Ill check out that video now that you posted . Thanks again !

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So I have another Question , So me and my gal were in game the night this all happened and keep in  mind None of this stuff has happened before to the extreme that it was happening that night. Do you feel that certain SIM's could cause these issues (Strong Lag) and maybe they needed a restart ? We both were experiencing these issues together so that was the main reason of asking about all this stuff then the gal told me that my complexity was not rendering her in so that'swhy i asked about  the complexity issues as well. 

So im asking do you think the game alone could cause so much lag due to certain sims not being restarted and since we were experiencing those issues at the same time and haven't really had those issues to that extent before ?

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4 hours ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

So you made this comment "The solid colored avatars is because they are too high in complexity to load for your graphics.". So are you talking about My graphics as in my computers GPU because if so that cant be right because i have a BEAST GPU or are you talking about my Graphics settings in game ? Other than that You all have said some things that have helped me out tremendously and I appreciate it. Thanks for all the input , so helpful

 

3 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

As I mentioned earlier, it's your settings. Depending on which viewer you're using, you can alter those settings so that you can view people with any number of complexity. Like you, I have a gaming rig with a "beast GPU", but I still usually keep my settings for viewing others capped at around 150,000 to 200,000 and the only jellydoll avatars that I see tend to be way over 300,000 and wearing old flexihair or complex jewellery. And, with regard to my own complexity, I try to keep that below 75,000. Usually I'm around 50,000.

I have heard, that when you first download Second Life, the number for Avatar Render Complexity is set based upon how much your computer can handle. It is the Second Life installer that set this number for you. The installer "read" your system.

Is it correct, Skell? That the complexity number is set for you when you download Second Life?

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1 hour ago, StLoUieYaBisH said:

So I have another Question , So me and my gal were in game the night this all happened and keep in  mind None of this stuff has happened before to the extreme that it was happening that night. Do you feel that certain SIM's could cause these issues (Strong Lag) and maybe they needed a restart ? We both were experiencing these issues together so that was the main reason of asking about all this stuff then the gal told me that my complexity was not rendering her in so that'swhy i asked about  the complexity issues as well. 

So im asking do you think the game alone could cause so much lag due to certain sims not being restarted and since we were experiencing those issues at the same time and haven't really had those issues to that extent before ?

You are correct, it can be the SIM and not you. But if your girlfriend did not render you, she could have a  weaker computer than you - I am not sure if "weak" is the correct word. Low performance computer perhaps? I had an old computer that I tried to play SL on. It didn't work well. I had only 4 GB and upgrading to 16 GB was like a "new" computer. Plus installing a SSD. I had big ideas about buying more expensive things, but real life kicked away those plans. Still, this budget upgrade helps me a lot. I can run Firestorm smoothly. I am lucky, that I have cable.

The System Requirements for SL is really bogus. They recommend 4 GB, if she has it, she should double it. I was surprised that more memory was so affordable.

Has she tried to click on your avatar and then "Always render fully" from the menu? This should force her system to render you.

In laggy situatons, both you and her should use a short drawing distance like 32 m or 64 m, and lower the graphic quality to medium, not high or ultra.

You and her can also reduce the number of non-impostor avatars . The closest avatars to you will then be rendered correct, but not the avatars in a distance. I am not sure where you find it in the Default Second Life viewer. I only use Firestorm. But the tips and tricks for Firestorm is working on other viewers as well, but I am not sure here you find them.

https://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_very_laggy

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marianne Little

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