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Prokofy Neva

Loot Boxes Revisited

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6 hours ago, chibiusa Ling said:

And that is the exact reason why I hate Gacha. It's nothing more or less than a money grab and the creators know it. They know people are addicted to playing them and will spend thousands trying to get the one they want where as before they could just buy it for maybe 300 linden as a normal release. I haven't purchased from a Gacha machine in a long time now and have no intention of ever doing so again.

I almost always buy my gatcha goods second hand off marketplace. I get exactly what I wanted, and somebody else wasted $50,000L getting 999 copies of the red gloves...

The merchant still wins though... so in actuality I try to avoid gatchas - because whether you buy it first hand or second hand, you're training a merchant to keep making them.

I do still have a good number of them... but not as many as I could have if I let my impulses drive this.

And I actually find that for many merchants it is often their worst stuff that ends up in a gatcha. Best looking for the rare... but the tech on the items is often subpar. Bad LOD so it triangles at more than 0.01m away, high land impact, outdated scripts they bought from an old kit rather than using more up-to-date lower lag scripting, or full of max-resolution textures so it causes your house to start texture-thrashing after you have a few of them...

- Gatchas are made in a rush, and made to look good at the gatcha event or in the advert image close up... but often subpar in usage. Exceptions exist, but many of them are the 'cheap goods sold in the shops by the tourist venue'... I am from San Francisco... I got wise about buying goods on the main blocks of China Town, Pier 39/Fisherman's Wharf, and Golden Gate Bridge when I was a kid... You buy stuff a few block away if in that neighborhood at all...

Don't buy Gatchas anymore than you buy T-shirts outside that famous museum...
- meaning you might have a few, but it shouldn't become your whole wardrobe... It's basically mass-produced junk goods.

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5 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Being able to turn right around and sell or trade those 75$l items for profit,definitely adds value behind those items we don't want..Because a person that gets two rares could put one up for 500 or 1500 on the market place,or that skin they can't use for sale at 150 or trade it with someone for the one they want.

MP is full of old gatchas for sale at rock bottom prices... My own MP listing is full of them... Every 6-12 months I got back and reduce the prices again...
- If I got 999 red gloves, so did you and everyone else...

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9 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Interesting thought, what's the difference between "loot boxes"  and other similar things, like those little gacha machines in stores (collectibles, have resale value) or other "blind purchases" like trading cards with a very strong second-hand market (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon, etc)?

Not much really. Go grab a game that has them, usually there's a hook offer to let you open some initial ones for free. So do that and look at what's inside.

Everything in there has some value to somebody... it's just that most of it is of extremely low value to most people and very common.

The only difference here is that Gatchas tend to be transferable and we're allowed to do that for a price.

In most lootbox scenarios, the person with 999 red gloves, is stuck with all of them.

You mentioned trading card games... gatchas have more in common with TCGs than lootboxes due to the 'trade' aspect. But that is also the only difference. However that difference is vitally important... Even if nobody actually wants one of those red gloves...

 

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I think the only reason places like Belgium haven't pronounced on Gacha's is likely no on has suggested it to them. All of the games they went after were due to players raising complaints. I am fairly confident that if brought to their intention that Belgium and other companies would take the view that Gacha's and loot boxes are identical. You pay real money, you always get something even if it was what you hoped for, the items can be traded as they can in many games they have pronounced fall foul of the belgian law.

What Belgium can do about it is of course a different matter

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37 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, you admire the company that essentially created the lootbox system that got Belgium up in arms, and was threatened with legal action about it?

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/284808-ea-agrees-to-remove-fifa-loot-boxes-in-belgium

LOL they didnt create them, they first appeared in some MMOs around 2010 then spread, EA joined the party later

The one that democratized those massivly has been STEAM mostly, along with skin gamlbing websites owned by suspicious people

Notice that skin gambling website owners just had warnings from UK autthorithies, because parents complained about their kids beeing scammed /gambling money on skin gambling websites

Wake up lol, inform yourself, dont you realize something is going wrong , around?

Is that your definition of justice?

Edited by BloodSlaughter
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9 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

MP is full of old gatchas for sale at rock bottom prices... My own MP listing is full of them... Every 6-12 months I got back and reduce the prices again...
- If I got 999 red gloves, so did you and everyone else...

I don't put mine on the MP..I'll usually trade mine right away in the group where everyone is trading..That or just have a give away for those looking for them..The things usually go right away..

If I get a rare, I usually end up giving away or trading the stuff I don't want anyways.. At least I can, rather than being stuck with items that are no transfer..

The point isn't that you might have a hard time trading or selling them or giving them away,it's that you can..

 

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14 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

I think the only reason places like Belgium haven't pronounced on Gacha's is likely no on has suggested it to them. All of the games they went after were due to players raising complaints. I am fairly confident that if brought to their intention that Belgium and other companies would take the view that Gacha's and loot boxes are identical. You pay real money, you always get something even if it was what you hoped for, the items can be traded as they can in many games they have pronounced fall foul of the belgian law.

What Belgium can do about it is of course a different matter

isn't the difference that a lootbox is like a treasure chest from the loot pool and a gacha you can see what is on the list?

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Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

isn't the difference that a lootbox is like a treasure chest from the loot pool and a gacha you can see what is on the list?

Most mmo's publish a list of the things that might be in a lootbox and an assessment such as common, rare, etc. I believe Belgium and other countries are also going after trading card packs

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2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Most mmo's publish a list of the things that might be in a lootbox and an assessment such as common, rare, etc. I believe Belgium and other countries are also going after trading card packs

The ones I've seen,which have been mainly vanity items,you have a chance at a few of the vanity items, out of the whole listed loot pool of vanity items..The list is usually pages long..

I know the FTC is looking into lootboxes..

One of their main concerns from what I've read so far is,games having players pay for lootboxes with real money to try and advance in a game..Pretty much lootboxes being the only way you can advance..

That and they are not breaking laws to where they are using illegal gambling.

It doesn't sound like gachas or lootboxes are a game of skill..so It's going to come down to,are gachas or lootboxes  illegal games of chance or not..

Maybe when the FTC gets done with looking into it, we may get some updated definitions..

 

Myself,I won't lose any sleep if they stay or go really..I'd much rather just go and buy the skin rather than waiting around for some deal on the mp or making a trade..

Although the giveaways are a lot of fun..I like doing those.. hehehehe

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4 hours ago, janetosilio said:

So how does this discussion pertain to Second Life?

Lootboxes and Gacha's are incredibly similar if not the same depending on how you look at it. Since lootboxes in games were banned or restricted in several countries, it begs the question if the same will happen to Gacha's which is the point Prokovy is trying to make in the OP.

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14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So here we go with the Loot Boxes again.

There's been a lot of speculation that the law *in one country* (Belgium) against loo tboxes and possible legislation in other countries will spell the end of gachas.

I don't think so. Not in the US, anyway.

First of all, after reading the Verge piece which references a few American congress people I think -- not likely. Gaming companies have powerful lobbyists and they are not likely to let this by.

Your whole idea is flawed due to the funny constellation that your conservatives are also the liberal ones...

Lootboxes are "that weirdo computer stuff kids do" I think it will depend a lot wether conservatism or liberalism wins ;)

The gaming companies have a big lobby that wants to keep the gambling in the regulated spaces of their cash cow casinos... believe me it is more complex than you think at first glance.

Edited by Fionalein

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I don't like Gacha much.  I wouldn't weep if they were outlawed.

However if they stayed, I would like to see a rule that says a Gacha machine must never give the same item twice to the same person.  I know that would require storing what was given to each person that played, but tough that is the Gacha vendor's problem.  This way at least the more you spend, the more of each set you would get and eventually you would know that you would get it all - you just would not know what order you would get them or how much you would have to pay to get the one you want.  Even that seems excessively grabby to me, in fact ideally I would like a rule where they have to provide a mode where you forgo any element of chance and just select the item you want.

I know, I know, that is like wishing for chocolate snow but I am in a mood to fantasize.  Mmmm in fact chocolate snow sounds real good too, we should definitely have that as well 😃

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2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Warning .. Danger

gumball-machine-1.thumb.jpg.fad950ff8615af331dad4318a27d578e.jpg

Soon to be banned across the globe! :P 

How many people do you know who put hundreds of US dollars in to those things in one sitting? 🤔

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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

How many people do you know who put hundreds of US dollars in to those things in one sitting? 🤔

The same number of those who put hundreds of US dollars into gachas - zero!

Maybe we run around with a different group of people. :) 

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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

How many people do you know who put hundreds of US dollars in to those things in one sitting? 🤔

Those junk toy machines used to take a quarter (my kids are far too old to be interested in them any more), which is a little over L$62. That seems about right for a gacha machine. I'd let the kids use 4 quarters to go for something they wanted in one. That sounds like a gacha machine to me.

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People have to ability to spend far more money from their L$ balance than they could possibly carry in quarters and in very short time can gain more using credit.  Physical toy machines such as that are naturally limited by those real world considerations, unless those also take credit cards now and keep a balance for you.  Gachas are more like slot machines in that dynamic.  In fact if you put an addict next to an SL slot machine and a gacha machine, there would be no difference in their ability to spend large amounts on either.

However, I suspect I really didn't have to spell this out to you guys, you are way smarter than that.

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2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

People have to ability to spend far more money from their L$ balance than they could possibly carry in quarters and in very short time can gain more using credit.  Physical toy machines such as that are naturally limited by those real world considerations, unless those also take credit cards now and keep a balance for you.  Gachas are more like slot machines in that dynamic.  In fact if you put an addict next to an SL slot machine and a gacha machine, there would be no difference in their ability to spend large amounts on either.

However, I suspect I really didn't have to spell this out to you guys, you are way smarter than that.

If we're going to outlaw things to protect addicts, SL's shoe stores are in trouble. 😉

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3 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

If we're going to outlaw things to protect addicts

LL already started it by having the gaming rules.  Now you are only allowed "skill" gaming, at least in theory, so they have recognised this.

Edited by Gabriele Graves

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3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

However if they stayed, I would like to see a rule that says a Gacha machine must never give the same item twice to the same person. 😃

SL Syndicate had a shopping event like this on Halloween with their "secret doors". Bonus treat: the items were copy not trans. I bought 2 full sets.

Edited by Fionalein
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4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

How many people do you know who put hundreds of US dollars in to those things in one sitting? 🤔

In one sitting? I would absolutely not. However, over a period of time...sigh.  

I collect strange things. One of the strange things I collect is toys from these machines. I have been collecting them since I was a kid. 

You would laugh if you saw my collection, I laugh at it. Although you might not laugh if you knew what I use some of them for, like the children's hospital which one of my kids spent her first five years living in and out of. I have literally taken them in by the hundreds, because even if they're junk (and they usually are), kids often get an overabundant amount of joy from those junky little plastic bubbles filled with even more junk they'll likely eventually lose, throw away, or will break. :D I have also used them for stocking stuffers,  easter basket stuffers, easter egg hunts, "keep 'em quiet" kid sitters...

But, frankly, I collect them because I like them-and I have a very weird obsession with collecting them. I would be absolutely crushed if they were ever outlawed, as most stores already don't have these machines. I have a bunch of them on my desk now, one has a mini fidget spinner, a few have little erasers, a bouncy ball, a puzzle, and a giant sticky something or other. I keep them there for grubby little hands, otherwise known as my nieces. I also have some in my purse, at all times, just because (but I also have crayons, a small notepad, stickers, bubbles, among other things).

That all said, those machines are not what *I* define as gambling, just like gachas are not. You are guaranteed to win, something, always (provided the machine works...I hate when they don't, lmao, but that's irrelevant). You might not win what you want, you might think what you won isn't of equal or greater value to what you spent...but you still won *something each and very time. When you gamble, you are literally taking a chance that you MIGHT win, something, there are no guarantees that you'll get anything at all. Now that very well may not be the definition others give gambling, gachas, or these machines...but it's what I stick to.

If I  buy gachas, it's second hand, usually when they're cheaper than the machine was and it's something I really want-like my Jian animals which aren't sold directly by the store and are always pretty cheap. In fact, I don't think I've ever bought a non animal one, lmao, except my BB hamster av..but that's still an animal I guess.  The only machines I have ever played directly are the ones at free bird, and that's when I want a new pet and I don't care which color I get, because those are very reasonable and I love those animals, lol. 

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7 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

LL already started it by having the gaming rules.  Now you are only allowed "skill" gaming, at least in theory, so they have recognised this.

Wasn't that only because gaming laws changed back then?

I don't think it was a concern for gambling addictions..

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5 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Wasn't that only because gaming laws changed back then?

I don't think it was a concern for gambling addictions..

Those laws were presumably crafted due to those concerns though right?

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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Those laws were presumably crafted due to those concerns though right?

Yea,but LL isn't the one that made them..They just followed them..

I don't think they would have changed their policy if the laws didn't change,is what I'm getting at..

There was a ton of money coming into the grid when the gamblers were here.. I know being in the clubs dancing back then,I noticed an extreme drop right away when they left..hehehe

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13 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Yea,but LL isn't the one that made them..They just followed them..

I don't think they would have changed their policy if the laws didn't change,is what I'm getting at..

There was a ton of money coming into the grid when the gamblers were here.. I know being in the clubs dancing back then,I noticed an extreme drop right away when they left..hehehe

Whether LL decided to do this themselves or were made to by law makers doesn't really matter.  LL still crafted and implemented the "Gaming Rules" as they apply to SL which of course would have been an interpretation of the law and that may yet happen again with Gacha.

The effect is still the same though and that is the initial step has already been taken to protect addicts in SL so it's too late to make an appeal with the slippery slope argument.  That was the point of my response to Parhelion.  I am quite happy to agree that LL did this in response to the law.
 

8 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

If we're going to outlaw things to protect addicts.

 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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