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To what degree do you feel "immersed" in Second Life?

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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:
6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't give any credibility to these theories anymore ("suspension of disbelief", and "the fourth wall"). I think they're devised by a mind so identified with objectivity, reason, and separation of self from the rest of the world that they are compelled to create an overly elaborate theory in order to justify why we are affected by others in front of us -- feeling and participation in the world around us is seen as the non-default and an unusual process that must be justified by a separate and superior mind.

Not at all.

Second Life is not and will never be a detailed copy of Real Life. Nor should it be. In that sense it will never be real and that means people will need to "suspend their disbelief", that is accept that a couple of core factors are different from how they usually are.

In my first post I mentioned two works of art and I chose them very deliberately. Salvador Dali can make us believe that clocks are soft and pliable. George Lucas can make us believe that highly trained stormtroopers with high tech precision weapons can miss a barn door at point blank range. That is suspension of belief. (You can call it something else if you like but that's just semantics.)

There are several well known and proven techniques artists of all kinds use to facilitate suspension of disbelief and immersion. You can play around with timing and with deliberate use of distractions, you can prepare and build anticipation, etc., etc.

I've never said SL is or could be a copy of RL. Of course, it's not real in the sense you are describing reality. And yes, artists can deploy certain techniques to cause those experiencing various works of art -- a book, a virtual reality scene, a play -- as more synonymous with real life ( ususally via the application of techniques that increase emotion or paint a more realistic or compelling picture).
And so I am not taking issue with WHETHER there are techniques that can help make the audience feel more immersed. I'm questioning whether the terms used to describe a process ("suspension of disbelief" and "the fourth wall") accurately describe what happens when we become more immersed, or if these terms accurately give a clue as to what might be the cause of what occurs when we become 'too immersed'. We have to understand what consciousness is, the nature of how we perceive reality, to debate whether these terms used to describe the processes are totally accurate.
In addition, these terms presently being used are created by Western thought, leaving out Eastern conceptions that could be more valid. In other words, why does the Western world get to define what art is and how we appreciate or define it with our consciousness. Eastern conceptions of art and the nature of reality are very, very different.

It's only those with a Western world mentality that even need to evoke a suspension of disbelief when enountering art, because they experience themselves as separate from everything anyway. And their experience is one of having a "fourth wall" or sense of separation around them all the time. So no doubt, these Western philosophers need to posit techniques to actually be present in any world, whether their own RL world or one imagined for them in a book or play. They were concocted by silly men who value reason over emotion. Sorry (Scylla) but I'll take the Vedas over Aristotle any day.

But you kind of missed the point I was making as you left out the 2nd paragraph in your quote of me, ignoring the context of the discussion ensuing between Scylla and myself.
The question is, what happens when someone (lets say a non-psychotic person, and a fairly well-adusted one, and not a child) 'loses it', and are these notions of "the fourth wall" and "suspension of disbelief" any help when it comes to understanding what occurs. Scylla thinks "the fourth wall', a sense of more distance, is what is needed when someone 'loses it'. A kind of rational bootstrap mentality to wrestle ourselves away from those so-called unreasonable emotions. But I more tend to think a person who is overcome by their emotions while experiencing a play or book has been too detached from particular emotions, and so they become overwhelmed when experiencing the emotions a character displays, and they simply don't have the skills to handle it.
In other words, their "fourth wall" that frames the stage has actually been framing their entire life, and experiencing a character expressing emotions they have repressed allows them to finally feel their own pain along with the character.

* If one says the person overcome with emotion needs more 'distance' or needs to utilize their 'reasoning' then one is in effect saying they're doing something wrong -- but I think they're involved in a valid process and doing everything right.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm questioning whether the terms used to describe a process ("suspension of disbelief" and "the fourth wall") accurately describe what happens when we become more immersed, or if these terms accurately give a clue as to what might be the cause of what occurs when we become 'too immersed'.

They do but yes, they don't describe it very much in detail.

 

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

We have to understand what consciousness is, the nature of how we perceive reality, to debate whether these terms used to describe the processes are totally accurate.

That's very interesting and definitely something that needs to be studied if we want to increase the level of immersion. But it gets complicated fast. You may have noticed my post ended very abruptly. I was actually going to write a lot more about it but realized I was about to start yet another endess rant, so I stopped. ;)

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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

That's very interesting 

I was actually going to write a lot more about it but realized I was about to start yet another endess rant, so I stopped. ;)

Pffft you're no help today, ChinRey….I guess I'll have to figure out the complete nature of reality and consciousness tomorrow  ;0

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I think it really just depends upon each person and what they are seeking or desiring from it. To some its just a movie or book to read and enjoy and relax with and waste time not thinking about the troubles of reality at that time. A means to escape time and reality and responsibilities for a little while. To others its an interpretation of what they wish their real life was a like, a fantasy a dream a desire of what they cannot have or cannot be or cannot do for one reason or another. So they invest a lot of feelings and emotions trying to make it feel as real as possible.

For me its about the people behind the avatar, how they act, how they speak, how they behave towards me. I dont care if their avatar is dancing, or laying on a log about to be cut in half.  Just like I equally dont care about that character in the book that just died or lost a family member. I know its fake and not real and not happening, just a story made up to entertain and nothing more.

Its not that I dont have emotions, I do but I chose how they are affected and by what. not some pixel animated character in an online media source. For as long as there is no tactile interface beyond a keyboard or controller, as long as their is no olfactory interface, no taste interface, no temperature interface.. no neural network interface it will not ever really be truly immersive. imagination is all great and wonderful but it can only take you so far before reality will step in and remind you its all just fake, not real, not important. That there is no real danger of anything happening to you other then your head/heart/emotions being played with if you let them.

at the end of the day when you log out, it stops it ends, its over, it doesnt continue, your avatar does not exist, it cant even be seen or interacted with by anyone else.

I see the screen before me, I hear the click-clack of me typing on the keys, I watch the letters dance across the screen as I do and stop when I dont. im on the outside looking in, just like when reading a book or watching a movie. Its not happening to me, but to the character within, which is not me.

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:33 PM, kali Wylder said:

I loved that sim!  Very good vibes there.  I remember the first time I went there it was for some hunt or other and so I saw the whole place in great detail.  Now that was a great place to be immersed in.

That makes me incredibly happy, thank you so much ♥ 

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On 2/19/2019 at 12:15 PM, ThorinII said:

I feel very immersed in Second Life. When I'm inworld, I often feel like I'm actually there: I imagine the voices matching the written word (I have voice disabled); I imagine smells matching the scenery or looks, I imagine many things that can't be shown inworld at all, or only be described by emoting it.

Although I often have the same grade of immersion when I read a good book - but when I'm reading, I'm reading. There's almost no stopping it. For example, I managed to "binge-read" Stephen King's "The Stand" within one weekend. 😏

However, I must admit, I sometimes even dream to actually be in SL,  to actually be my avatar. Although, whenever I have such dreams (which are very vivid, by the way), waking up in RealLife is a tad confusing for a few moments. 😮

I don't think I've ever had a dream of being in SL. SL itself is like a dream.-

I don't feel as if my character "is" me but is a kind of part of me, and while I'm inworld it seems "persuasive".

Sometimes I will catch myself thinking that my living room in RL is overstuffed and might have "too many prims" which I can check by...right-clicking on the floor. That sort of thing.

 

 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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8 hours ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

at the end of the day when you log out, it stops it ends, its over, it doesnt continue, your avatar does not exist, it cant even be seen or interacted with by anyone else.

Avatars have always been an extension of RL people for me. The RL people continue to exist whether they're logged in or not. There's someone I was friends with while she was ill and in and out of hospital who's still on my friends list. When I see her name, I send her a good thought. I don't know if she's still alive or how she's doing if she is. There's another friend with mental health issues and, last I heard from her, dreadful internet. She'd come and go, and then LL imposed a mandatory viewer upgrade and she had to stop logging in. I wonder how she's doing too. Another friend I met in SL, I stay in touch with over Skype. His mum is in hospice so I think about them every day and check in regularly to see if he's around and needs a virtual hug. I still remember what their avatars look like.

If I'm not seen inworld for awhile, two dear friends worry about me. One will sometimes send my avatars small gifts to brighten my day. Well, my main mostly. If my building alt gets something, I know he's really worried. :)

These are the people who've stayed by me through the worst of my own illnesses. Their avatars might blink out but the friendship doesn't.

Maybe this is why I can become completely immersed in a conversation in SL. It's no less real for me because it's typed.

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15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Pffft you're no help today, ChinRey….I guess I'll have to figure out the complete nature of reality and consciousness tomorrow  ;0

Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow. ;)

But here are a few factors to consider:

We don't think what we think we think. There's so much going on in our brains that we are not consciously aware of. Much of it is never recorded in our memory so it's gone forever in the blink of an eye.

We don't see what we think we see. I'm sure we've all been told that what we see is only ten percent what our eyes actually register, the rest is how the brain interprets the data. (Imagine a large list of optical illusion examples here.)

Our senses interact. (Insert long explanation with lots of examples here.. ;))

There are limits to how much we notice. Most of what goes on around us is unnoticed. The brain simply doesn't have the capacity to handle it all so it focuses on what seems important at the moment and ignores the rest.

Memory works by association. New memories are never stored independently, they are "hooked onto" existing memories. The more such "hooks" the brain can find for the new data, the easier it is to remember. This is very different from computer memory where every piece of information is stored separately in an orderly fashion. Two of the many consequences are:

  • Almost everything we remember is wrong. When an old memory is used as a "hook" for a new one, it is inevitably altered a little bit.
  • First impressions are important. Because that will always be one of the strongest "hooks" for subsequent related experiences.

Perception is holistic. It's far more about the whole picture than individual details.

Our brain is always looking for patterns. If there are no patterns, it makes some up.

Things that seem out of place will always draw a lot of attention. I suppose that's just another way to put the previous two points but it's important when we're talking about immersion factors. Put an organutan in a Borneo jungle scene an he fits perfectly in. Seat him in the parliament and he stands out like the proverbial sore thumb (or maybe not but you get the point). My definition of an eyesore, a common SL immersion breaker, is not something that is ugly. An eyesore the way I see it can be really beautiful and amazing but it breaks the continuity of the scene and draws attention away from what is more important to the whole.

The brain is not alone. It's our cpu, yes, but it doesn't do all the work, it is thoroughly integrated with our entire nervous system and even our entire body.

And finally, Chin Rey's addendum to an old publishers' slogan: Content may be King but without Queen Context, he is nothing at all.

---

I don't know how Linden Realms are these days since I haven't tried it after they changed it. But it used to be one of the most immersive parts of SL and it's a good example how immersion factors can be applied here.

One thing that is obvious there, is that it's not about highly detailed graphics. The LL scene is about as low poly and "crude" as it gets in SL. But everything had a conistent style, there was nothng there that stood out and stole your attention. Except the crystals of course but those were the items you wanted to draw attention to. THhe ow resolution simplified graphics actually helped a lot there because it made it easier to integrate whatever wacky avatars players and sabouteurs showed up with.

The Linden Realms music stream helps a lot too. It's actually brilliant, carefully designed to set a mood and emphasize rather than draw attention away from the visual scene and the action.

Of course, it also has something as rare in SL as speed. That always makes immersion so much easier, there's no time for your mind to wander.

 

(Edit: merged this and my former post and added it to my blog)

Edited by ChinRey
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5 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Avatars have always been an extension of RL people for me. The RL people continue to exist whether they're logged in or not. There's someone I was friends with while she was ill and in and out of hospital who's still on my friends list. When I see her name, I send her a good thought. I don't know if she's still alive or how she's doing if she is. There's another friend with mental health issues and, last I heard from her, dreadful internet. She'd come and go, and then LL imposed a mandatory viewer upgrade and she had to stop logging in. I wonder how she's doing too. Another friend I met in SL, I stay in touch with over Skype. His mum is in hospice so I think about them every day and check in regularly to see if he's around and needs a virtual hug. I still remember what their avatars look like.

If I'm not seen inworld for awhile, two dear friends worry about me. One will sometimes send my avatars small gifts to brighten my day. Well, my main mostly. If my building alt gets something, I know he's really worried. :)

These are the people who've stayed by me through the worst of my own illnesses. Their avatars might blink out but the friendship doesn't.

Maybe this is why I can become completely immersed in a conversation in SL. It's no less real for me because it's typed.

I understand what you mean and to me its about the conversation in sl, not the avatar. It doesnt matter if someone is wearing a furry avatar or human or even just being an object like a chair and actually having me sit on them while we talk. Its that conversation that matters to me.

I come from the age of text only, then moved into simple 2d chat systems, then early 3d like furcadia, then imvu then second life. so for me its less about how someone looks and more about the chat itself and how they behave and treat me.

I have a few close people that have stayed with me through everything. they actually chase me down to discord if I suddenly log off because I am not doing well that day. And a few that sends me messages and waits for me to come back to reply to them. Its these people that make me come back to sl when I do, not the avatar, not the pixels, not the looks, not the sims, not the groups of random people who dont know me or care if I am there or not.

That is why I dont really get immersed with sl, other then the chatting. all the rest of sl is just add-on's and not the main reason for me to be here. honestly if I had all my friends on discord or something else, i might not even really have a reason to return most days.

the comment you quoted was about how some people are in sl. to them its just a book, when they log out they are closing and putting down that book and moving on with their daily life and not being concerned about the book anymore. for some its like going home from the local club or bar where you were just hanging out with friends. that is why I started out saying that its different things to everyone. there is no right or wrong about why you come here. we each have are own personal reasons for doing so.

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I can immerse myself in lots of things, SL included. I linked to a very old thread above, about an evening in SL shared by quite a few people in which many of us felt something transcendent. At one point during the evening, I had the sensation of cool mist on my arms. I have had this sensation while looking up from my RL lawn at clouds in the sky, imagining I'm floating along with them. It happens while flying my drone. When I see something flying or floating in the sky, I often imagine myself as being that thing. My ex-hubby eventually learned that if he saw me gazing intently at something in the sky, it was probably best to stop talking until it passed. I was up there, not on the ground with him.

Some of us really do have our heads in the clouds.

 

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I agree that the immersion seems to be most acute in the beginning, at least for those who stick around. I remember how fraught with danger SL seemed. Now it just seems so silly to get so immersed. 

This is why so often newbies come here hysterical because some tiny little inconvenience or malfunction happened and they are sure some Evildoer or LL is out to get them. Or they are right but cannot just walk away from it in someway.

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16 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 

awwww, I remember that night!  Two of me were there. It really was magical and yeah, pretty immersive.

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3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I can immerse myself in lots of things, SL included. I linked to a very old thread above, about an evening in SL shared by quite a few people in which many of us felt something transcendent. At one point during the evening, I had the sensation of cool mist on my arms. I have had this sensation while looking up from my RL lawn at clouds in the sky, imagining I'm floating along with them. It happens while flying my drone. When I see something flying or floating in the sky, I often imagine myself as being that thing. My ex-hubby eventually learned that if he saw me gazing intently at something in the sky, it was probably best to stop talking until it passed. I was up there, not on the ground with him.

Some of us really do have our heads in the clouds.

 

That's the sort of happening thing I've always looked for in SL but never found. 

When I was a child, I used to stare out the car window and imagine my Shetland (and later my Quarter mare) running along side, keeping pace, manes and tails flying. As an adult, when I lose a pet, I will see them running along side, free as the wind and happy, chasing me all the way home.

Excuse me. There's something in my eyes.

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For me, it varies, and it depends less on what's going on in SL, and more about what's going on in my RL space at the time. If I'm at home alone and the house is quiet, I can get pretty well immersed. But whenever my partner or my kid is around, making noise, chatting to me, distracting me, then all the immersion is gone and I'm merely looking at a picture on a screen. Nothing breaks immersion quite as effectively as the demands of a nine-year-old.

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On 2/20/2019 at 5:35 PM, janetosilio said:

It can be immersive. Then you start dealing with people and it can suck all of your immersion away pretty quickly.

 

Yes, true. Especially those who send you c*ck pics do end the immersion very abrupt!

All gone, in just one second or less.

 

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3 hours ago, carolinestravels said:

Yes, true. Especially those who send you c*ck pics do end the immersion very abrupt!

All gone, in just one second or less.

 

Where do you ladies hang out that you get such things?

I've never gotten a single one in 14 years.

I feel so left out...

.

.

.

Nope. Couldn't keep a straight face. 24.gif.799b1162818017554410ca1b58d3f3ed.gif

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Where do you ladies hang out that you get such things?

I've never gotten a single one in 14 years.

I feel so left out...

.

.

.

Nope. Couldn't keep a straight face. 24.gif.799b1162818017554410ca1b58d3f3ed.gif

Honestly? It’s a thing that will sometimes happen at some point before, during or after sexy, pretendy, fun times with hopes you’ll reciprocate with some nudies of your own.

It’s not as much of a thing anymore like it used to be a few years ago. You know before the advent of things like sexting and tinder. Though you’ll meet a couple of throwbacks every now and then.

Now it’s more of a link to their slightly varied nude pose collection/conquest wall on Flickr. Which... I guess is progress?

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 4:44 AM, ChinRey said:

And finally, Chin Rey's addendum to an old publishers' slogan: Content may be King but without Queen Context, he is nothing at all.

I love how you are so into mesh, and yet you know the truth of context :)

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18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I love how you are so into mesh, and yet you know the truth of context :)

I'm not particularly into mesh, I'm into good, efficient content and context.

I once asked Aley how she could make all those amazing builds with such amazing low land impact. Her answer was that you had to use all available methods.

Edited by ChinRey

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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I love how you are so into mesh, and yet you know the truth of context :)

I'm not particularly into mesh, I'm into good, efficient content and context.

I once asked Aley how she could make all those amazing builds with such amazing low land impact. Her answer was that you had to use all available methods.

Ahhh ok, I thought that since you talked so much about optimizing mesh that you really loved it...but you're saying that you're MORE into "good, efficient content and context".

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Immersion to me is when I don't care about, or am oblivious to flaws or lack of detail, because I'm too immersed, if you pardon my recursiveness.

I can be immersed in an ugly old sandbox in SL where I link a bunch of plywood boxes, then set the linkset to physical, add a script with llBreakAllLinks(); in the touch_start event.

And then touch it.

happy-spongebob.jpg.21d178a06228b23ee709a62948d7f98b.jpg

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Not sure, but the other night I had my first SL-related dream; I went to my SL apartment and there were 50 people in there for some reason. I wanted them out of my apartment, but they wouldn't budge! Woke up very confused.

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3 hours ago, Edohrou said:

Not sure, but the other night I had my first SL-related dream; I went to my SL apartment and there were 50 people in there for some reason. I wanted them out of my apartment, but they wouldn't budge! Woke up very confused.

Sounds like something that would happen in The Sims 1/2/3/4. ^_^

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:24 PM, janetosilio said:

Honestly? It’s a thing that will sometimes happen at some point before, during or after sexy, pretendy, fun times with hopes you’ll reciprocate with some nudies of your own.

It’s not as much of a thing anymore like it used to be a few years ago. You know before the advent of things like sexting and tinder. Though you’ll meet a couple of throwbacks every now and then.

Now it’s more of a link to their slightly varied nude pose collection/conquest wall on Flickr. Which... I guess is progress?

Early on I received a picture entitled "not a *****" from a guy who hit on me in a newbie sim. I was maybe a couple of weeks in world and demands for sex were constant at that time. Of course I had to look and this image was an RL head and shoulders of this guy. Well...dog sick ugly didn't do him justice.

What made him think that would work is baffling. Even if the photo had been Tom Cruise he wouldn't have got lucky. My head was full of Marketplace stuff then. 

And still is to be honest. 

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