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Cinos Field

Cultural diferences between humans and furries (and others) in SL

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Hello, dear Second Life.

I've noticed that over the years the various wider communities of SL have all developed their own cultures, often with rather striking differences, and I'd like to talk about what things you've noticed. For example, contrasting furry and human groups... (these are just personal observation, highly anecdotal, and your mileage may vary; it's all a sliding scale rather than absolute differences anyway).

1) Human DJs are far more likely to talk on their streams. Furries typically prefer text for this, even though they do talk on voice otherwise.

2) Almost everything sold by and to furries has the modify permission. The fact that a lot of very big SL brands are no-mod - particularly mesh bodies and clothes - is generally a jarring difference.

3) ...and because everything is mod you're generally expected to know how to modify yourself. It's a DIY kind of attitude that reduces the need for customer support!

4) Human clubs use way, way more gestures on average. You almost never see the "applause" or ASCII art gestures in furry places.

Just some examples. I'm wondering what differences you notices between whatever groups you visit. Do gorean DJs (if they exist) talk? Are vampire teeth sold modifiable? Who knows!

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

1) Human DJs are far more likely to talk on their streams. Furries typically prefer text for this, even though they do talk on voice otherwise.

2) Almost everything sold by and to furries has the modify permission. The fact that a lot of very big SL brands are no-mod - particularly mesh bodies and clothes - is generally a jarring difference.

3) ...and because everything is mod you're generally expected to know how to modify yourself. It's a DIY kind of attitude that reduces the need for customer support!

4) Human clubs use way, way more gestures on average. You almost never see the "applause" or ASCII art gestures in furry places.

After reading your post, I'm kind of thinking I wish human communities were more like furries'. 

 

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

and way less paranoid about child avatars.

I think those of us humans who aren't into the adult scene in SL aren't so paranoid about child avatars.

 

This made me think about what SL culture do I fit into. I suppose my culture is the creator culture with a lot of shopper culture thrown into the mix.

  • don't need others around to enjoy SL
  • don't get bored easy and expect someone to suggest ways to use our time
  • forget that many don't really know how to use the build tools
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11 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Furries tend to be shorter on average, and way less paranoid about child avatars.

Might not be true for the hormone driven furries, there are furries and then there are furries ;) I guess that depends a lot on the community.

 

Edited by Fionalein
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I never interacted with furries much because I was mostly at places where they didn't tend to go (or weren't allowed because they were RP sims that required human avs). But the ones I met were always lovely people. I kept hearing about all this friction with them, but I never encountered any.

Goths are lovely too. In SL and RL. I couldn't ever be one because I don't like the music, really love colours and the aesthetic doesn't suit me (plus I don't like vampires), but goths are so, so friendly and kind. I wonder if they express their darker side through their subculture, art and aesthetics, and so all that's left is just the loveliness.

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I don't frequent furry only places since I'm not furry so I really can't compare my experience to the OP's.  We do have a smattering of furries that come to our club and I haven't really noticed anything about them that I could generalize about other than they are furry and they like blues music. I think that they feel as welcome as anyone, I know I don't treat them any differently except for one that I flirt with who wears a werewolf av and I do get a sweet little thrill at the sight of him, he's a handsome beast.

Blues folk are pretty tolerant people and we accept everyone as long as they follow our rules.  Our rules are pretty relaxed as well, basically don't be an A hole. Oh and officially we don't allow child avs, just because we don't think children should be in bars. But we don't make a big deal of it.  I don't even ask them to leave as long as they don't insist on RPing as a child while they are in the club. I generally assume that there is an adult behind the av so it's not really a crime.

@Amina Sopwith I do agree about goths being lovely people, I got to know some because I'm a fan of the twisted hunt. I like the idea that they get their darkness out in non-destructive ways leaving nothing but the loveliness.

 

 

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the persona my fursona plays currently, he thinks him's human,  like he's totally denying he's a sox.  like dumbdumb you look like a skunk and a fox,  but you are all going around, saying "We sox are humans too"   boy that gets you some very confused look..

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The voice part makes sense, as people would have more of an expectation of what someone would/should sound like...I used to have a lot of cubbie friends, when voice came about they were all very sad about it, because for some reason people pushed them to talk to prove something or other, but the voice did not match up to the adorable, and some found that unsettling.

Mod everything has been the way for all things, not only mesh, Furries are the original modders as far as SL is concerned, you had to adapt everything available to fit, hair demos would be inside your heads, and then purchased modified to fit, clothing altered to work around what was usually a prim then sculpt body, so it makes sense. Whether this helped you have less crime, no idea, but Furries did not tend to be copybotters because it would be a lot more evident, making the most of some texture stuff was more obvious though, suddenly something that came in brown or black was seen in pink and purple. 

Skin communities ( I call us skins not humans ) were more prone to abuse editing way back when, and tinting was the main argh for creators. I think that if LL had made the editing tools select as needed it would have been very different, it should have been possible to edit selected, resize and shrink etc but not retexture and tint or vice versa. People did not want to spend hours on shading and wrinkles and highlights and then have someone tint it hot pink buying it only in white to do so in every colour, it was ugly and this was days of facelights and no windlight.

Often it really was not about it being edited to fit and such it was about it not turning ugly and then being seen by others ugly and potential customers thinking it was ugly. The no mod thing went on and on, and people thought that by no mod you could not copy, when we had prims making everything, making it mod meant people could just sit there and replicate prim by prim, and they did, a well known (closed now) store opened its doors with hair and clothing that was prim by prim copies of other big name stores. No Mod meant no stealing, when  copybotting was new people did not understand, they thought no mod meant no stealing....SCULPTS with the textures being visible until someone worked out the alpha trick, again could be copied. It was all very stressful to know what was in the creators better interest.

The other thing with mod perms, is that people really didn't know how to edit back in the day like creators did, so you would have someone try to do something, it would break and they would call on the creator, no redeliveries, the not understanding copy first or unpack again and start over, just full blown panic, and then anger because customer service was not a full time thing for many stores, they would come in release something and could vanish for months, come back release and go, no mod meant there was no reason they could get IMs on anything other than perhaps something not delivering, and you may have to wait weeks to get a reply.

Newer creators don't actually know all of this, they just do what everyone else is doing, so it just became a thing.

Edited by Sasy Scarborough
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43 minutes ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

The voice part makes sense, as people would have more of an expectation of what someone would/should sound like...I used to have a lot of cubbie friends, when voice came about they were all very sad about it, because for some reason people pushed them to talk to prove something or other, but the voice did not match up to the adorable, and some found that unsettling.

Mod everything has been the way for all things, not only mesh, Furries are the original modders as far as SL is concerned, you had to adapt everything available to fit, hair demos would be inside your heads, and then purchased modified to fit, clothing altered to work around what was usually a prim then sculpt body, so it makes sense. Whether this helped you have less crime, no idea, but Furries did not tend to be copybotters because it would be a lot more evident, making the most of some texture stuff was more obvious though, suddenly something that came in brown or black was seen in pink and purple. 

Skin communities ( I call us skins not humans ) were more prone to abuse editing way back when, and tinting was the main argh for creators. I think that if LL had made the editing tools select as needed it would have been very different, it should have been possible to edit selected, resize and shrink etc but not retexture and tint or vice versa. People did not want to spend hours on shading and wrinkles and highlights and then have someone tint it hot pink buying it only in white to do so in every colour, it was ugly and this was days of facelights and no windlight.

Often it really was not about it being edited to fit and such it was about it not turning ugly and then being seen by others ugly and potential customers thinking it was ugly. The no mod thing went on and on, and people thought that by no mod you could not copy, when we had prims making everything, making it mod meant people could just sit there and replicate prim by prim, and they did, a well known (closed now) store opened its doors with hair and clothing that was prim by prim copies of other big name stores. No Mod meant no stealing, when  copybotting was new people did not understand, they thought no mod meant no stealing....SCULPTS with the textures being visible until someone worked out the alpha trick, again could be copied. It was all very stressful to know what was in the creators better interest.

The other thing with mod perms, is that people really didn't know how to edit back in the day like creators did, so you would have someone try to do something, it would break and they would call on the creator, no redeliveries, the not understanding copy first or unpack again and start over, just full blown panic, and then anger because customer service was not a full time thing for many stores, they would come in release something and could vanish for months, come back release and go, no mod meant there was no reason they could get IMs on anything other than perhaps something not delivering, and you may have to wait weeks to get a reply.

Newer creators don't actually know all of this, they just do what everyone else is doing, so it just became a thing.

Copybotting wasn't that big with furries from what I remember. There is a tendency to edit textures for personal use though, and oftentimes if you IM a creator to ask for permission they'll tell you to go right ahead as long as you don't sell the result. Mainly because many furries have rather elaborate patterns that are tons of work to make for just person, so it's easier if they all do it by themselves, I'd imagine. (and since almost all creators are *also* furries, they know how important it is to get them just right)

Very enlightening post, it's interesting to see where the population of SL diverged like that.

 

 

Edited by Cinos Field
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10 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Copybotting wasn't that big with furries from what I remember. There is a tendency to edit textures for personal use though, and oftentimes if you IM a creator to ask for permission they'll tell you to go right ahead as long as you don't sell the result. Mainly because many furries have rather elaborate patterns that are tons of work to make for just person, so it's easier if they all do it by themselves, I'd imagine.

Very enlightening post, it's interesting to see where the population of SL diverged like that.

 

 

Definitely a much tighter modding community so those that created tended to use also, so they understood the need for modding etc, and yes, I have a few that got permission to redo, they either did a good job or a bad job but it was on them not the creator to deal with :) then there are some that just included the bakes and textures when mesh came around because otherwise no chance to create your own textures.

 

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On SL I haven't noticed anything but then again I am new!

 

I play both anime and furry characters, and at first I was worried I would be bullied for being one or the other... haven't ran into that on SL (yet) so I'm very pleased! 

 

I've been able to make friends with people of any avi type but I tend to shy away from/am intimidated by normie/regular-looking human avis. Just bad experience from say, IMVU where they would be rude to anyone different. But all of the ones on here have been 100% incredibly nice to me so that fear is going away ❤️

 

Also, could I ask what the paranoia about child avatars is? I don't have any child avis, though the anime one *does* look young, but then again it's a reflection of myself. I'm 22 irl and am usually confused with looking 15-17 and that happens a lot, very annoying

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@Cinos Field Not all of us who have human avatars use gestures.  I personally find them quite annoying.

The best Vampire teeth are generally not sold modifiable.  I am sure there may be exceptions but I haven't encountered any good ones.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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2 hours ago, Edohrou said:

Also, could I ask what the paranoia about child avatars is? I don't have any child avis, though the anime one *does* look young, but then again it's a reflection of myself. I'm 22 irl and am usually confused with looking 15-17 and that happens a lot, very annoying

The paranoia most often comes up in the form of "you're too short, you must be a child and I should report you before anybody else gets reported:"

The furry/anime community is much more accustomed to small and/or cute avatars, between 4-5 feet, even in a lewd context. Probably because it's further removed from real life and can be more easily justified (like small real life species for furries or not really resembling our idea of a real child).

6 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Might not be true for the hormone driven furries, there are furries and then there are furries

54 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Not all of us who have human avatars use gestures.  I personally find them quite annoying.

Friends, we're talking about the overall trends and averages, of course there are exceptions and outliers but they don't disprove anything. 😋 (Never mind that there's a thousand ways to slice the pie and we're all talking about our own limited experiences, until someone links actual statistics which nobody's probably bothered to gather.)

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Friends, we're talking about the overall trends and averages, of course there are exceptions and outliers but they don't disprove anything. 😋 (Never mind that there's a thousand ways to slice the pie and we're all talking about our own limited experiences, until someone links actual statistics which nobody's probably bothered to gather.)

Agreed, but the strangest thing is that something in my psyche wanted me to exclaim, "I am not a gesturbator!" or words to that effect.

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My gestures folder has been empty since 2007. I think everyone should have the chance to unpack that 3547845464585 big box of Gestures freebie, play at least a dozen five times and then delete them all, they are the bling shoes and the naughty school girls of noise, everyone should have experienced it.

I won't lie though, I do have a Wonder Woman music and spin to hands on hips gesture somewhere in my inventory that I play /ww occasionally to call upon, but that is usually when I am in the studio and joking with friends.

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:44 PM, Cinos Field said:

1) Human DJs are far more likely to talk on their streams. Furries typically prefer text for this, even though they do talk on voice otherwise.

2) Almost everything sold by and to furries has the modify permission. The fact that a lot of very big SL brands are no-mod - particularly mesh bodies and clothes - is generally a jarring difference.

3) ...and because everything is mod you're generally expected to know how to modify yourself. It's a DIY kind of attitude that reduces the need for customer support!

4) Human clubs use way, way more gestures on average. You almost never see the "applause" or ASCII art gestures in furry places.

To precisely explain why they are the way they are;

  • There are way more humans than furries on SL, so there's understandably more "normies" (people who are not well-versed in internet cultures and norms of interactions) in human communities (not saying every human on SL are normies)
  • That, added with the facts that Linden Lab's main target audience are not video gamers, and that most furries are gamers and people who are well-versed in internet cultures to begin with, makes a lot of difference in the expectation of creators and customers in regard to how high the general technical knowledge or proficiency of a customer is, and the desire to, when it comes to modifying items
  • Normies consider the loud and spammy club gestures cool or at least ok because they don't associate them with spam or cringe, furries or non-normies would generally consider those gestures cringey especially when used unironically, because they are spammy, too straightforward and lack modern internet cultural reference (most gestures generally used by furries are culturally referential, sarcastic, or both)

Not saying one is worse than the other or vice versa :) just pointing out why the cultural differences are there for those who might not know already

Edited by lucagrabacr
adding things and fixing typo
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I've spent time in both communities and I find that furries tend to skew much younger on average. It's very unusual to find furries in their 30s or older. This probably goes a way to explain the higher level of tech-savviness and greater tendency to be a gamer. Though I think this is changing as the teen furries of 15 years ago are starting to enter their 30s now, and the tech geeks of the 90s are now 40-something.

Not sure I agree with the lack of gestures though. While there's less of the ascii text decorative stuff and the "I LOVE THIS TUNE HOULALALA" type of gestures, furries tend to use more comedy gestures, particularly those involving animations, like jumping, falling on your face etc.

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2 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

Oh look. One of these threads again. 

Beat ya to it. :P

On 2/12/2019 at 3:23 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

I've noticed this discussion sans disguise keeps popping up every month or so. :|

 

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4 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

 

To precisely explain why they are the way they are;

  • There are way more humans than furries on SL, so there's understandably more "normies" (people who are not well-versed in internet cultures and norms of interactions) in human communities (not saying every human on SL are normies)
  • That, added with the facts that Linden Lab's main target audience are not video gamers, and that most furries are gamers and people who are well-versed in internet cultures to begin with, makes a lot of difference in the expectation of creators and customers in regard to how high the general technical knowledge or proficiency of a customer is, and the desire to, when it comes to modifying items
  • Normies consider the loud and spammy club gestures cool or at least ok because they don't associate them with spam or cringe, furries or non-normies would generally consider those gestures cringey especially when used unironically, because they are spammy, too straightforward and lack modern internet cultural reference (most gestures generally used by furries are culturally referential, sarcastic, or both)

Not saying one is worse than the other or vice versa :) just pointing out why the cultural differences are there for those who might not know already

This is a really interesting perspective, but you break it down into a simple binary between "normies" (a term that is a very clear pejorative) and what you call "those well-versed in internet culture." The word "normies" implies that you mean by the latter the culture of 4chan, Something Awful, the Alt-Right, certain corners of Reddit, etc. (I think I'd also like to suggest that there is more than one kind of "internet culture," and that the elements that spawned the term "normie" are just one part of a much more diverse picture?)

Serious question: has not a great deal of the most vociferous hatred towards furries come precisely from that part of "internet culture"? Am I wrong in thinking that an awful lot of those most likely to employ the insult "normies" are also those most likely attack furries?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Missing word added
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5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is a really interesting perspective, but you break it down into a simple binary between "normies" (a term that is a very clear pejorative) and what you call "those well-versed in internet culture." The word "normies" implies that you mean by the latter the culture of 4chan, Something Awful, the Alt-Right, certain corners of Reddit, etc. (I think I'd also like to suggest that there is more than one kind of "internet culture," and that the elements that spawned the term "normie" are just one part of a much more diverse picture?)

Serious question: has not a great deal of the most vociferous hatred towards furries come precisely from that part of "internet culture"? Am I wrong in thinking that an awful lot of those most likely to employ the insult "normies" are also those most likely attack furries?

The term normie / normies is not necessarily a degrading term in my opinion and certainly wasn't the intended meaning when I used it in the context of comparing the people who are into the gaming / nerd cultures to people who are not into them. (just like how people who are into cars would call themselves motorheads or gearheads and other people who aren't into them would be normies for them)

And yes you're right there's certainly different internet cultures and I don't think all of them would use the term normie / normies to describe people who are not into internet cultures. 

I think the hate comes from many spectrums of society in general because of people's general perception about furries and the fandom, the ones coming from people who engage a lot in internet discussions and content creations just seem a bit more severe because they are naturally more active online I think. 

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5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is a really interesting perspective, but you break it down into a simple binary between "normies" (a term that is a very clear pejorative) and what you call "those well-versed in internet culture." The word "normies" implies that you mean by the latter the culture of 4chan, Something Awful, the Alt-Right, certain corners of Reddit, etc. (I think I'd also like to suggest that there is more than one kind of "internet culture," and that the elements that spawned the term "normie" are just one part of a much more diverse picture?)

Serious question: has not a great deal of the most vociferous hatred towards furries come precisely from that part of "internet culture"? Am I wrong in thinking that an awful lot of those most likely to employ the insult "normies" are also those most likely attack furries?

Yeah, I'm not sure that those terms are either accurate or appropriate. As Matty said, it's mainly an age thing rather than a furry/non-furry/'normie' thing - and the furry community (everywhere, not just SL), skews young. Certainly young compared to the overall SL playerbase.

(Side essay time)

You know when you take a glass of clear water, and drop a single drop of food colouring (let's say blue) into the glass, then wait a minute or two; what do you see? It's clearly blue where the drop landed, a deep vivid blue. You can clearly see the colourless liquid down the bottom of the glass, and at the sides. But where does one section end and the other begin? There are no clear lines. Instead you get a thousand shades of partially clear, partially blue liquid, making up a full spectrum of lightness, of anything and everything between those two extremes. That's the best analogy I can come up with to describe culture, and why trying to squeeze 'culture' into boxes with solid edges is both pointless and counterproductive.

When it comes to internet culture, there's a bunch of different coloured drops to consider. And you're doing the experiment on a boat.

What you've just described and listed are a whole range of sub-cultures that have a good deal of overlap, but a great deal of non-overlap. Consider the average population of /r/incel and /fit. On the one hand you have a bunch of misogynistic permavirgins (you can already picture the awful facial hair and general lack of hygiene), and on the other you have a bunch of gymbros (and girls; female erasure online is real). Let's call the first one a red dot, the second one a purple dot. Both of these groups would use the whole "lol normies" thing with varying degrees of irony. Somewhere in the middle you have maroon; the subsection of /pol that made the news for miraculously getting Trump elected through the mystic art of pepe memes. You've then got your reddish-maroon, your future school-shooters-in-waiting; and you've got your purple-maroon, the well-adjusted, productive member of society that posts ironic frog memes on an obscure website and has a centre-right political leaning that prioritises personal responsibility, the kind of person you can disagree with politically while still liking them as a person.

Furry-hate is your yellow dot. It's easy to see the orange and paint the entire red-to-purple spectrum with the same brush, sweeping up a bunch of extremely diverse communities in the process. That's an overreaction up there with classifiying the cross as a hate symbol because of Westboro Baptist Church. Or calling everyone that's ever been on Tumblr (the single greatest source of non-traditional and lgbt-friendly erotic art and pornography the world has ever seen) a paedophile, just because the site also happened to be the largest single distributor and facilitator of child pornography. That doesn't mean that there aren't subsections of those subcommunities that are deeply problematic; just that it's worth keeping the collateral damage to a minimum.

Short answer: yes you're right, there most definitely is more than one type of internet culture, it's one hell of a diverse picture :P

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3 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

The term normie / normies is not necessarily a degrading term in my opinion and certainly wasn't the intended meaning when I used it in the context of comparing the people who are into the gaming / nerd cultures to people who are not into them.

I am entirely willing to believe that you didn't use the term with a pejorative intent. Unfortunately, that's not the way that language works, and I don't think there is any doubt that the term is used, overwhelmingly, as an insult. What's more worrisome, maybe, is that, because of its origins, its use tends naturally to identify the user with an admittedly complicated bundle of attitudes and assumptions that include some of the most ugly corners of the internet. I am absolutely sure that was not your intention, but its a sort of inescapable consequence. I can't imagine using it without framing it very clearly in quotation marks.

3 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

the ones coming from people who engage a lot in internet discussions and content creations just seem a bit more severe because they are naturally more active online I think.

Someone above said something like this, I think. Or maybe it was another thread. Anyway, for whatever reason, online discussions just tend to encourage the articulation of extreme positions, and turn into flame wars more quickly. I've never really read a convincing analysis of why that should be.

Thanks for your response!

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Because coffee deficiency
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2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

What you've just described and listed are a whole range of sub-cultures that have a good deal of overlap, but a great deal of non-overlap.

I completely agree -- which is part of why I was somewhat concerned about the apparently uncritical use of "normies" as a means of dividing the population neatly and reductively into halves.

The tendency of the left to engage in this kind of dismissive "lump 'em all in the same basket" approach is, as I suspect you know, a central point of Angela Nagle's book Kill All Normies. It's also why Dale Beran's otherwise worthwhile piece on the role of 4chan in the rise of Trumpism received a fair amount of criticism: he tends to argue for a single direct line of descent, and papers over the variants and diversity. No one who has any familiarity with, for instance, the many faces and ideologies of hactivism should make that kind of mistake.

A parallel is the whole "basket of deplorables" thing: it's really unhelpful to paint a complicated scene with a very very broad brush. If we're to address the variety of causes and expressions of these particular cultures, we need an accurate and comprehensive understanding of the kinds of range of view that you describe.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Still needing coffee
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