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BilliJo Aldrin

How about a new sub forum in "People"?

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I just figured out how to report a post. I reported you,Kitty, and my comment was "the kitty went wild"...lol

I did not really do this

I hope you didn’t! Each violation results in escalated punishments. That’s all I can say.

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:


 

7. Speaking from the perspective now as a forum participant, I appreciate how well the moderation here has "tamed" and made much less toxic what could sometimes be a pretty scary place, particularly for new people. On the whole, this is a friendlier, safer environment than it used to be.....

 

I left the forums sometimes in about 2012 due to the incredible toxicity, but I didn't leave SL.  I retired my first Av and let Kali take over and I went to new places and made new friends and found that my addiction to SL was still thriving.  I don't know exactly what prompted me to come back to the forums.... possibly it was Dill's music thread in the slums or feeds as they are now known.  But you are absolutely right Scylla, this place is much tamer now.  It's not as interesting now either and I'm not sure why.  Along with the rancorous threads and flame wars, there was a lot of fun.

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22 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

I left the forums sometimes in about 2012 due to the incredible toxicity, but I didn't leave SL.  I retired my first Av and let Kali take over and I went to new places and made new friends and found that my addiction to SL was still thriving.  I don't know exactly what prompted me to come back to the forums.... possibly it was Dill's music thread in the slums or feeds as they are now known.  But you are absolutely right Scylla, this place is much tamer now.  It's not as interesting now either and I'm not sure why.  Along with the rancorous threads and flame wars, there was a lot of fun.

Yes, exactly. The toxicity ca. 2010-2012 was lethal. I had details about my personal life in SL being tossed around in posts here, and gossiped about on third party web sites. It was pretty horrible.

The ideal, of course, is a middle ground, with sufficiently strong and engaged moderation to ensure that actual trolling and flaming are discouraged, but with a greater license for real and legitimate critical discussion and fruitful (and fun) derails.

The problem is that that would require a greater expenditure of resources on moderation here than is, I suspect, currently the case. And, of course, it would also necessitate more transparent and engaged moderation. In the old days, as I recall, one got actual, personalized DMs from mods about pulled threads and posts, and not just boilerplate emails that frequently make no real sense in the context of the pulled post.

Another option would be to go back to resident mods, although we'd need mechanisms to ensure that the moderation was not being controlled by particular cliques.

None of that is going to happen, though.

 

22 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

It's not as interesting now either and I'm not sure why.

More specifically . . . I've thought the same thing, and been equally puzzled, since at least 2014, which was the last time (previous to this last half year) that I was active here. Part of it might be the interface? But surely the biggest thing that has changed is the moderation.

 

ETA: I have, I have to say, some sympathy for the mods. Pulling forum duty must be about as popular as lunch room monitor is for elementary school teachers!

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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On 2/8/2019 at 11:17 AM, Selene Gregoire said:

Oddly enough I happen to agree with Billi. I've been wanting a section where we can discuss things not necessarily SL related. 

There's a reason VVO's PRS section has a disclaimer. It isn't in Linden Lab's best interest to try to police such a section. They can't let it be like the wild west like Cris can.

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18 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

And you don't have to break any rules or guidelines for it to happen to you. Example: A says to B, you are a member of a group. B says no I'm not. A says yes you are, B says no I'm not, and this goes on maybe a dozen times. Both participants were suspended from both here and from SL. That actually happened. That's how stupid some of the moderation here is these days.

While I don't think (in most cases) people should be suspended for the incident you describe, I do think there should be a new rule, as "off-topic" doesn't really encompass the behavior you're describing, and I see this dynamic as the reason why many threads are closed.

This behavior could best be described as people who have stopped listening to each other. While not necessarily attacking the other, or calling anyone a name, they have basically entered into a kind of 'war', emotionally charged,and the goal has become an attempt to try and force their opinion on another.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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@Luna Bliss

There were no emotions involved in that 'discussion', and nothing else involved that could remotely be considered as being worthy of a penalty. There was no reason for either person to be suspended from the forum, and definitely no reason for a suspension from SL. One of the participant's penalty was overturned, but not until after it had been served because I was penalised and couldn't get in to make an appeal. I don't know whether or not the other participant's penalty was overturned after it had been served.

Just out of interest, the other person served the penalty and soon afterwards was suspended again from the forum and from SL. This time, not for something current but for a post that was written way back in history. I've no idea how far back it was. That penalty was overturned, presumably after serving the time, and it led to a statement by Tommy that historical posts won't be penalised again. There are some people who have mod abilities making idiotic decisions. They may be good at their proper job, but they are useless as moderators. And they don't give a damn.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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20 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

It's mostly because I don't really do much of anything in SL any more, and I haven't done for years.

You mean people who bought something ten years ago don’t still contact you for customer service?

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Well Phil, I can't say I'm for certain about this, but I think you're blaming the wrong person (although I might agree the moderator in question is a bit heavy-handed).

I think the resident you had the argument with is watching this unfold and laughing at you, feeling empowered because they have caused such trouble to the point where they could actually cause you to leave the forum.

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37 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Luna Bliss

There were no emotions involved in that 'discussion', and nothing else involved that could remotely be considered as being worthy of a penalty. There was no reason for either person to be suspended from the forum, and definitely no reason for a suspension from SL. One of the participant's penalty was overturned, but not until after it had been served because I was penalised and couldn't get in to make an appeal. I don't know whether or not the other participant's penalty was overturned after it had been served.

Just out of interest, the other person served the penalty and soon afterwards was suspended again from the forum and from SL. This time, not for something current but for a post that was written way back in history. I've no idea how far back it was. That penalty was overturned, presumably after serving the time, and it led to a statement by Tommy that historical posts won't be penalised again. There are some people who have mod abilities making idiotic decisions. They may be good at their proper job, but they are useless as moderators. And they don't give a damn.

Can we even discuss past penalties without running the risk of being banned for discussing moderator activity and decisions?

Since I've returned on this account, I have been on my best behavour, even to the point of second guessing myself and deleting posts if i  think they might be even remotely considered trolling or attacking another member.

Even so, every time i close the forums, I wonder if today is the day I said something that someone might take offence at and report it.

 

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41 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well Phil, I can't say I'm for certain about this, but I think you're blaming the wrong person (although I might agree the moderator in question is a bit heavy-handed).

I think the resident you had the argument with is watching this unfold and laughing at you, feeling empowered because they have caused such trouble to the point where they could actually cause you to leave the forum.

You didn't need to post any of that, Luna.

I doubt that you know the moderatorS (plural) in question, so you're barking up the wrong tree there. Multiple penalties against me have been subsequently overturned, y'know ;)

I know that 'the other person' is in the thread, and I'm certain that she isn't laughing at me. She was suspended too, y'know. She didn't cause me to leave SL. Perhaps you would like her to be responsible, but she isn't. I explained all that to you, so you should know all about it. It's the unjustifiable heavy-handedness that finally switched me into quit mode, but, as you know (because I told you), I was ready to quit SL already, and had been for some time.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think the resident you had the argument with is watching this unfold and laughing at you, feeling empowered because they have caused such trouble to the point where they could actually cause you to leave the forum.

I already responded to this but I'm going to make another response to it.

What you wrote was a bare-faced attempt at stirring (which comes under the heading of trolling). You failed, but it does show me one reason why people make the comments they do about you. A few posts ago you wrote that you prefer truth to connection. It now appears that you prefer neither. Your preference is probably drama.

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1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think the resident you had the argument with is watching this unfold and laughing at you, feeling empowered because they have caused such trouble to the point where they could actually cause you to leave the forum.

I already responded to this but I'm going to make another response to it.

What you wrote was a bare-faced attempt at stirring (which comes under the heading of trolling). You failed, but it does show me one reason why people make the comments they do about you. A few posts ago you wrote that you prefer truth to connection. It now appears that you prefer neither. Your preference is probably drama.

You're misunderstanding my intent. My post was not about drama at all or trying to 'stir' anything -- I was trying to help you.

I feared you had been manipulated by this other person as she does this a lot (manipulates). Perhaps you have not seen this, in other alts and this incarnation.

 Without knowing the exchange in question, I suspected she had manipulated you in the thread where both of you were banned. I didn't want to see you leave, and so thought the truth might cause you to reconsider. It can feel very oppressive to believe those who have power over us are abusing that power somehow, and I thought if you knew where the real trouble might be coming from you might change your mind.

 

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

You're misunderstanding my intent. My post was not about drama at all or trying to 'stir' anything -- I was trying to help you.

I feared you had been manipulated by this other person as she does this a lot (manipulates). Perhaps you have not seen this, in other alts and this incarnation.

 Without knowing the exchange in question, I suspected she had manipulated you in the thread where both of you were banned. I didn't want to see you leave, and so thought the truth might cause you to reconsider. It can feel very oppressive to believe those who have power over us are abusing that power somehow, and I thought if you knew where the real trouble might be coming from you might change your mind.

Rubbish! Your post was about drama. She started the thread, for goodness sakes, and you thought you'd help me by telling me that she's watching the thread? lol. I just don't know where some people get their brains from. I really don't. And you add that she's laughing at me? Did she tell you that? or was it a lie? Then you helpfully inform me that she feels empowered because she's driven me out of the forum. Did she also tell you that? or was that also a lie? You seem to have forgotten the reason why I'm leaving SL. You also seem to have forgotten that I said I might pop into the forum occasionally. You're just in it for the drama.

I'm a big boy now. I can take care of myself, thank you ;)

<sigh> You can suspect all you like but when someone tells you the reason for something, you really shouldn't call them a liar. That's what you've just admitted to. I told you why I'm leaving SL, and it has nothing to do with the other person. Incidentally, neither of us was banned. You really should either get your facts straight or, better still, stay out of things you know nothing about, and are not your concern.

I don't expect a reply to this. I expect you to stay out of it now, as it has nothing at all to do with you.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Good Lord, what a mess.

I can only tell you my motivation and what I feel -- if you choose to think I'm saying you're not a 'big boy" or that I'm 'lying' I guess there's nothing I can do about it.

I'll tell you one last time what's up with me -- I hate to see people feeling hurt by others who are in positions of power. I saw this happening with you, and I tried to help.

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27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'll tell you one last time what's up with me -- I hate to see people feeling hurt by others who are in positions of power. I saw this happening with you, and I tried to help.

You did not see it happening with me. It was a figment of your imagination. If I thought you might actually learn from being told the truth, I'd tell you that I have not been hurt - not even by the moderators, let alone a user. You must think that I'm really weak-minded if you think I can't cope with someone disagreeing with me <sigh>. But I don't think you'll believe me so I won't tell you. Instead I'll leave you to your imaginations.

Tip for the future: Don't try to help people unless they ask for help. You're not good at spotting where help might be useful and, when it's not useful - i.e. when you've misunderstood something and jumped in with two left feet - it gets right up their noses.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well Phil, I can't say I'm for certain about this, but I think you're blaming the wrong person (although I might agree the moderator in question is a bit heavy-handed).

I think the resident you had the argument with is watching this unfold and laughing at you, feeling empowered because they have caused such trouble to the point where they could actually cause you to leave the forum.

Luna, the only person I have ever caused trouble for in here is myself, for being too opinionated, or too contrary, or too strident. 

I will admit, I've reported a few posts that were nothing but gratuitous attacks on me, but isn't that is how the game is played in here? Wind someone up, get them to cross the line, then report them.

A ban is as good as a win right?

Have a nice life Luna.

p.s. And for the record, I hate to see Phil leaving Second Life, he's been around even longer than me, but I can not imagine any arguments he and I had would have had any influence on his decision to leave SL.

 

Edited by BilliJo Aldrin
changed words, sdded stuff
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13 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

p.s. And for the record, I hate to see Phil leaving Second Life, he's been around even longer than me, but I can not imagine any arguments he and I had would have had any influence on his decision to leave SL.

The reason you can't imagine any is because there haven't been any.

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30 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:
54 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'll tell you one last time what's up with me -- I hate to see people feeling hurt by others who are in positions of power. I saw this happening with you, and I tried to help.

You did not see it happening with me. It was a figment of your imagination. If I thought you might actually learn from being told the truth, I'd tell you that I have not been hurt - not even by the moderators, let alone a user. You must think that I'm really weak-minded if you think I can't cope with someone disagreeing with me <sigh>. But I don't think you'll believe me so I won't tell you. Instead I'll leave you to your imaginations.

Tip for the future: Don't try to help people unless they ask for help. You're not good at spotting where help might be useful and, when it's not useful - i.e. when you've misunderstood something and jumped in with two left feet - it gets right up their noses.

I think you're the weakest of the weak, because you disparage the notion of being hurt (not saying you were or weren't hurt by said incident, because only you can know that for sure).

Aside from that...you have repeatedly brought up the unfairness of moderation here, and this behavior of the moderators has caused you to change your behavior by your decision to leave SL or the forum, and so it must affect you somehow. If it does not affect you in any way then why would you leave? Maybe if you explained this I would understand better, because you see I can only understand a change in behavior being caused by an incident as causing me to FEEL something. Maybe you can teach me something here.

I'm afraid I can't take your tip about not helping others (unless applied to you), and I will continue to help people even if they don't ask, because that's just the way I am. Usually this is appreciated, but obviously it is not appreciated in this case. 

Edited by Luna Bliss
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33 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I will admit, I've reported a few posts that were nothing but gratuitous attacks on me, but isn't that is how the game is played in here? Wind someone up, get them to cross the line, then report them.

A ban is as good as a win right?

Have a nice life Luna.

You wind yourself up BilliJo, nobody (as far as I've seen) tries to wind you up.

"ban is as good as a win"??  This is a war of your own making.

** Go back to the Sabbath/Climate Change thread and reread it -- can you not see how you wound yourself up so much, became so emotional and started replying flippantly, and escalated it to the point of closure? Why did you do that? Did you feel you were losing the debate? Or were you losing your primary identity, belonging to a group who does not believe climate change is real?

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Great scott, don't you ever stop digging?

20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think you're the weakest of the weak, because you disparage the notion of being hurt (not saying you were or weren't hurt by said incident, because only you can know that for sure).

Another lie from you. I didn't disparage the notion of being hurt. I said that I have not been hurt by anyone here. Not a moderator and not a user. That doesn't disparage anything.

Aside from that...you have repeatedly brought up the unfairness of moderation here, and this behavior of the moderators has caused you to change your behavior by your decision to leave SL or the forum, and so it must affect you somehow. If it does not affect you in any way then why would you leave? Maybe if you explained this I would understand better, because you see I can only understand a change in behavior being caused by an incident causing me to FEEL something. Maybe you can teach me something here.

I actually said, more than once, that the moderation here finally flicked my switch that said quit SL. So yes, it has afftected me. It hasn't caused me to leave SL because I had been ready to leave for quite some time. It was the last thing that tipped the balance. If I had any interest left in SL I wouldn't quit. I've told you all this already. I've already explained why I would leave, so why are you asking again? I can't help it if you don't remember. It was all posted only a matter of hours ago.

For the information, and being very specific, BilliJo had no influence whatsoever on my decision to finally quit SL. If she had, I would have quit long ago when we had difference of view. The moderator who dealt that difference of view did not trip my quit switch although what was done was both wrong and illegal. It added to my disenchantment with the moderation here. It was another moderator entirely who finally flipped the switch. That's very specific, and I don't know why I bothered telling you, because it has nothing at all to do with you. You are just poking your nose in where it doesn't belong, and isn't welcome. But I told you anyway.

 

Edited by Phil Deakins

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It amazes me how people post in here, pretending to be compassionate and caring, but can not pass up an opportunity to attack and insult others.

And then expect to be thanked for it.

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1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

It amazes me

You didn't answer me about the Sabbath thread.

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D

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

It amazes me how people post in here, pretending to be compassionate and caring, but can not pass up an opportunity to attack and insult others.

And then expect to be thanked for it.

Don't forget the inventing of things to be compassionate and caring about ;)

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