Lindal Kidd Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Aw, don't be that way, Selene. You do improve things on the forum, all the time! Which is more than I can say for certain other parties. Say, Phil...weren't you leaving SL? How's that working out for ya? Anyway, I don't think we need a forum for non-SL discussions...although I will defend to the death BilliJo's right to propose it. I think we have plenty of opportunity to inject non-SL discussions into threads, especially here in General Discussions. If I want to have more scope for that, there's always Facebook. Edited February 9, 2019 by Lindal Kidd 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said: Aw, don't be that way, Selene. You do improve things on the forum, all the time! Which is more than I can say for certain other parties. Say, Phil...weren't you leaving SL? How's that working out for ya? Anyway, I don't think we need a forum for non-SL discussions...although I will defend to the death BilliJo's right to propose it. I think we have plenty of opportunity to inject non-SL discussions into threads, especially here in General Discussions. If I want to have more scope for that, there's always Facebook. It was just a suggestion, nothing more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: It was just a suggestion, nothing more. I know! Keep 'em coming...just because people (including me in this case) don't agree is no reason not to make 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said: Say, Phil...weren't you leaving SL? How's that working out for ya? It's working out very well. Last month Phil Deakins was downgraded to basic, after being premium for over 11 years, and in March my other annual premium account will follow suit. Then I'll be gone. Thank you for asking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Many people have made great points here, but I'm too lazy to search through and quote them all. So, with apologies to those with whom I'm agreeing, or whose points I'm cribbing without attribution . . . I'm not very likely to start a thread here on a subject that is completely unrelated to SL. There are exceptions, but for the most part, there are better places to have those kinds of discussions, and I'm already reasonably active on some of them. I wouldn't post something about alpha cuts on mesh avatars in a discussion group devoted to feminist activism, and I'm equally unlikely to post here about reproductive rights in RL. That said, any attempt to make a cut-and-dry distinction between "RL" and "SL" is pointless. SL is part of our RL, and, however we may represent here, we bring with us all of the assumptions, beliefs, prejudices, and perspectives that RL has given us. My feminism, progressive political views, etc., are much more relevant in a RL context, but of course they colour what I say and do here. To suggest that we can partition one off from another is silly. Point 2 means that it is inevitable that RL topics, such as politics and ideologies, or even just interests and experiences, are going to be a potential part of even the most SL-specific topics. That said, I myself try to avoid (I'm not sure how successfully) derails that veer away from the overlap between SL and RL concerns, and become solely about RL. Again, I have other, better places to discuss those things, except where they do impact on SL. Sasy's broader point about community, and about broadening one's perspective, knowledge, and interests, is really well taken. I have never understood why SL doesn't seem to get how important these forums could be in helping to generate a sense of community and connection more widely through SL. The point that others have made about SL's interest in keeping this place orderly, and PR-friendly is also important, however: unlike, say, Reddit, the forums, insofar as LL cares about them at all (other than as a cheap way of outsourcing user support), seem to be seen not positively, but rather as a potential liability. That's understandable, in the circumstances, but it also means that, so long as LL sees the forums as a potential public embarrassment, we're never going to get free-wheeling discussions here. The result is that the moderation here seems (to me) to be rather corporate and PR-oriented. LL really isn't going to want an all-out debate on abortion access, or immigration, here, because it does nothing to forward the product's public image, and is, if anything, likely to cause embarrassment or frighten people away. What could they possibly have to gain, as a business, by allowing free rein in discussions? Speaking from the perspective now as a forum participant, I appreciate how well the moderation here has "tamed" and made much less toxic what could sometimes be a pretty scary place, particularly for new people. On the whole, this is a friendlier, safer environment than it used to be. The downside of that, however, is that the moderation sometimes seems arbitrary, heavy-handed, and opaque. My own single experience of being moderated here since I returned has left me confused and upset and, moreover, really uncertain about how safe it is to engage in discussions that, even while explicitly about Second Life, might be viewed as in any way controversial or tendentious. I am now frankly pretty reluctant to do so. So, I don't think I'll be likely to expose myself to possible sanction by discussing really controversial (but important) RL issues: I just don't have sufficient faith in the consistency and logic of the moderation. So, to sum up: I don't personally think that a subforum about RL only would contribute much, nor can I imagine any reason why LL would permit it. Nor, given how little I seem to understand the rules for moderation here, would I be comfortable posting there. I think it would make a lot more sense to use the GD forum better, as a means of community-building, and exploring what SL "means" and what it might be capable of. I don't see that happening, though, at least not as the place currently works. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 The most important topics to discuss on the forum are: 1. Have you seen my new butt? 2. Where are the lesbians? 3. Someone has somewhere, somehow cheated me and this should be fixed. 4. Is SL a game? I know if we just stick to these topics that hoards of new users will beat down the door to get into SL. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chibiusa Ling Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: It's working out very well. Last month Phil Deakins was downgraded to basic, after being premium for over 11 years, and in March my other annual premium account will follow suit. Then I'll be gone. Thank you for asking. Uh huh. Do you have any idea how many people I have heard say this. They always claim they are going to leave and give it a few weeks to a few months and out of no where they get "the urge". Its 9pm on a Saturday evening, when they would usually be on SL and they find themselves thinking... "Hmm, I wonder what's happening on the forum...it won't hurt to look......maybe if I just respond to just one comment.." Then they decide to log in...just to check in... "Oh a new feature, I might just take a look...oh this is neat..." The spend 20 minutes in world and feel their urge being satisfied.... "Well maybe a 1024sqm won't hurt I mean its not much to spend a month, maybe il get premium and then I get some spends as well" Then suddenly and without even realising it....four hours have passed you by....the addiction returns.... No one ever truly quits Second Life Edited February 9, 2019 by chibiusa Ling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 What other people have done is of no interest to me. But I do think that downgrading an account that's been premium for over 11 years indicates some strong intent. Having said that, I can't say that I won't look in the forum occasionally. It's SL that I'll be done with. I won't even have a viewer. I know it doesn't take long to download and install, but that's a whole lot longer than just popping in because it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: The downside of that, however, is that the moderation sometimes seems arbitrary, heavy-handed, and opaque. My own single experience of being moderated here since I returned has left me confused and upset and, moreover, really uncertain about how safe it is to engage in discussions that, even while explicitly about Second Life, might be viewed as in any way controversial or tendentious. I am now frankly pretty reluctant to do so. So, I don't think I'll be likely to expose myself to possible sanction by discussing really controversial (but important) RL issues: I just don't have sufficient faith in the consistency and logic of the moderation. Well my view on this, Scylla, is that if you haven't gotten a warning (or maybe a few) you're probably not saying much of anything worthwhile. So don't clam up! I have always said what I wanted to say here, gotten a couple of warnings, didn't feel so good, but in the end it's just "meh" Now if I got repeated warnings I'd take a look at my behavior of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 51 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: It's SL that I'll be done with. Why are you leaving SL, Phil? (if I may ask)... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Why are you leaving SL, Phil? (if I may ask)... I don't mind you asking, Luna. It's no secret. It's mostly because I don't really do much of anything in SL any more, and I haven't done for years. Because of that, it didn't need much for me to decide to leave, and my quit switch was finally switched by some of the idiotic moderating that occurs in this forum, this forum being pretty much all that I've had to do with SL for quite some time. Both the previous Admin leader (Tommy), and the current one (Kristen) know about it but they've done nothing to stop the rogue moderators, other than overturning bad decisions when they become aware. And they both know that that's why I'm leaving SL, so it's no secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: and my quit switch I can understand that. If I felt I was repeatedly being treated unfairly it would not make me want to stick around! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Addition: I can't complain though. I made a lot of money out of SL, and I spent plenty of years throughly enjoying SL. It's only in recent times that I've run out of things to interest me in it. If I were still enjoying it like I used to, then I'd just stay away from the badly-moderated forum and carry on inworld. I'm not quitting to make a point - as if! lol. SL has run its course for me, and I've no desire to hang around in a place where the stupidity that I've mentioned reigns. That's all there is to it. Edited February 9, 2019 by Phil Deakins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Sometimes it really is just time to move on. I've been at that wondering place a couple times in SL, believe me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I value 'truth' over 'connection', so I don't think I can ever really fit into a group. I do wonder if that's how you are too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: If I felt I was repeatedly being treated unfairly it would not make me want to stick around! You can judge it. In times past I've had the odd penalty - way back. But, until recent times, I hadn't had one for years. Then we get the current crop of moderators and suddenly warnings and suspensions become common to me, some of which are subsequently overturned. And that's what's so idiotic these days - penalties that should never be issued, but are issued because some moderators ignore the fact that the forum rules and guidelines haven't been breached, and penalise just because they want to. And what makes it really bad is them being in the new habit of suspending people from SL and well as from the forum. Some decisions are totally idiotic, and the people who make them ought never to be allowed anywhere near moderating buttons. It's not just me, Luna. They do it to anyone. Edited February 9, 2019 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: 21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: If I felt I was repeatedly being treated unfairly it would not make me want to stick around! You can judge it. In times past I've had the odd penalty - way back. But, until recent times, I hadn't had one for years. Then we get the current crop of moderators and suddenly warnings and suspension become common to me, some of which are subsequently overturned. And that's what's so idiotic these days - penalties that should never be issued, but are issued because some moderators ignore the fact that the forum rules and guidelines haven't been breached, and penalise just because they want to. And what makes it really bad is them being in the new habit of suspending people from SL and well as from the forum. Some decisions are totally idiotic, and the people who make them ought never to be allowed anywhere near moderating buttons. It's not just me, Luna. They do it to anyone. Well my guess, we have an extra dose of net-nanny tattlers these days. And, perhaps, due to budget shortcuts, there's not enough time to moderate in depth. And so, the comments that tattlers go after get the ax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Oh I'm sure there are some hobbyist net-nanny tattlers (I've never heard that expression before) here. I don't mind them. It's the penalties that should never be issued that I object to. Heck, more than one of mine were subsequently overturned, one of them without me even suggesting it lol. Issuing such penalties wrongly is abominable when it includes a suspension from SL. Many such suspensions are illegal, and would cost LL if they were taken to court. Not having enough time to learn the forum rules and guidelines doesn't excuse it, and not having time to check if a post breaks the rules isn't an excuse either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: Oh I'm sure there are some hobbyist net-nanny tattlers (I've never heard that expression before) here. I don't mind them. It's the penalties that should never be issued that I object to. Heck, more than one of mine were subsequently overturned, one of them without me even suggesting it lol. Issuing such penalties wrongly is abominable when it includes a suspension from SL. Many such suspensions are illegal, and would cost LL if they were taken to court. Not having enough time to learn the forum rules and guidelines doesn't excuse it, and not having time to check if a post breaks the rules isn't an excuse either. I thought that if someone was banned from SL they had done something horrid, like using the 'N" word or becoming violent. But you're saying people are getting banned from SL for fairly innocuous behavior? What are the rules...do a certain amount of warnings equal a ban from SL? Or is all this totally arbitrary? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Wait, by discussing this non-SL topic, are we breaking Forum guidelines? I’m-a telllllll!!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: What are the rules...do a certain amount of warnings equal a ban from SL? Or is all this totally arbitrary? I’d tell you, but I don’t want to get banned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Let's everybody report everybody's posts for at least 2 hours, then we'll all get banned from the forum, and then the forum will disappear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I just figured out how to report a post. I reported you,Kitty, and my comment was "the kitty went wild"...lol I did not really do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Suspending people from SL accompanies being suspended from the forum. I don't think anyone gets suspended from the forum these days without also being suspended from SL. And you don't have to break any rules or guidelines for it to happen to you. Example: A says to B, you are a member of a group. B says no I'm not. A says yes you are, B says no I'm not, and this goes on maybe a dozen times. Both participants were suspended from both here and from SL. That actually happened. That's how stupid some of the moderation here is these days. People are suspended without breaking any rules or guidelines. It's not an addition of warnings, or anything like that. It's done right off the bat. You might get a warning without a suspension, but it's not a case of 3 strikes and you're out, or anything like that. It is totally arbitrary and has nothing to do with how much of a 'crime' is commited, or even IF a 'crime' has been commited. You don't have to break any rules or guidelines here to get suspended from both here and SL. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Well I guess I'll just stick to telling everyone about my butt.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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