There really should be an SL2. Not Sansar.

[Bree Giffen]

59 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Back on topic. I strayed with the beta grid and local textures comment. There is no point in even considering an SL 2 unless these two major points are accepted:

1. Residents give up the notion of being able to hang onto their current inventories, and

2. LL greatly restricts what can be uploaded into the world.

Neither of these will ever be accepted, so what's the point of even discussing the topic?

Why do those points not being accepted stop the discussion? They are good points that a new world would need. There should be no inventory transfer and creation should be restricted. E.g. I can make a dress but only with the tools in game. I also think the avatars themselves should be in the hands of LL only and almost all animations too. LL would need this to make a much nicer interactive world.

[Bree Giffen]

There would also need to be game elements. Making something people are familiar with.. game.. and then adding all the extras of content creation. 

Maybe even having a nexus like I mentioned before where everyone enters the world at a common area.  Or is that still a bad idea?

[Blush Bravin]

17 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

 I can make a dress but only with the tools in game. I also think the avatars themselves should be in the hands of LL only and almost all animations too. LL would need this to make a much nicer interactive world.

 

7 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

There would also need to be game elements. Making something people are familiar with.. game.. and then adding all the extras of content creation. 

Maybe even having a nexus like I mentioned before where everyone enters the world at a common area.  Or is that still a bad idea?

What you're describing sounds nothing like SL. Might as well call it something totally different. It doesn't sound like an SL2 to me.

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

Yes. Simplified, like a pixar person or any of that non-realistic art style you see in many CG movies. E,g. Into the Spider Verse. The tools would prevent any realism to be introduced. No outside avatars, no outside mesh brought in. Maybe even no outside textures. Everything would be provided in-world. Simpler streamlined creation that everyone participates in.

No. You want cartoons, there are plenty of cartoony games already on the market. Have at it. 

[chibiusa Ling]

30 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

What you're describing sounds nothing like SL. Might as well call it something totally different. It doesn't sound like an SL2 to me.

Hmm....this is purely my own personal wants and desires but my version of SL 2.0 would have to include :

-Prims....I don't care what you all say I love in world building. But enhanced, so dividing faces, editing points, edges etc etc. Basically rudimentary "mesh prims". Limitations on how many divisions can be applied etc etc

-Mesh importing BUT with limitations on the complexity of the items that can be uploaded or perhaps a restriction on MB size (see region section further down)

-Maybe texture limits on uploads to keep textures at an acceptable size

-Sound clip lengths extended to 60 seconds or more

-Enhanced LSL 2.0 based on a powerful but simplified language/syntax along the lines of Python, Swift or Lua etc. With other extra features such as custom user function libraries, more enhanced debugging such as stepping through code, code cleanup, predictive function display as you type etc etc

    -Added on to the above, more useable controls. In the present day Up, Down, Left, Right, Mouse, Pg_Up, Pg_Down and Shift + Left or Right.....is not enough

-High quality fully customisable starter bodies that actually look decent that ANYONE could create for instead of the elite few.

-Clothing that can be created in world. One idea could be along the lines of current system clothing but more enhanced with more options, way more clothing styles, customisation and rudimentary baking for shadows and occlusion.

-Master user accounts and under that you create your alts which all share inventories.

-Enhanced regions, much larger in scale, with maybe voxel or similar terrain that allows you to tunnel, re shape and remove terrain to your own specifications. Maybe "land count" and prim limitations removed and a switch to restrictions by Megabytes. That way you could possibly have more in your sim than the original 20k prims would allow so long as the size of each item was low enough. Also perhaps enhanced terrain design features that allow you to generate trees and grass. Also the terrain split up into sectors that allow you to apply different textures to different areas...idk stuff

 

I do have more but I am too tired right now and no longer want to type

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

Yes. Simplified, like a pixar person or any of that non-realistic art style you see in many CG movies. E,g. Into the Spider Verse. The tools would prevent any realism to be introduced. No outside avatars, no outside mesh brought in. Maybe even no outside textures. Everything would be provided in-world. Simpler streamlined creation that everyone participates in.

A selling point of Second life IS the realism.

With what you suggest, you have already lost many of the citizens of SL, and you'll lose the rest with  no inventory carryover.

Besides there's already blockworld.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

I have a proposal I'm sure everyone can agree to:

"Linden Lab should create a new world built around the things I like with strict controls on the things that annoy me."

Of course, the "I" in that phrase is the person reading it so everyone will be happy. Let's get cracking!

Theresa Tennyson rubs her hands together with cruel glee because the "I" really meant "her" and now everyone will agree to it.

Theresa Tennyson then realizes that other people can read emotes.

Dammit.

[Coffee Pancake]

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Hmm....this is purely my own personal wants and desires but my version of SL 2.0 would have to include :

-Prims....I don't care what you all say I love in world building. But enhanced, so dividing faces, editing points, edges etc etc. Basically rudimentary "mesh prims". Limitations on how many divisions can be applied etc etc

No. You can't have prims if you want the system to run on a "propper" game engine. Prims and your ability to rez them is literally why SL lighting and texturing is the way it is and why we make everything with stupidly high poly counts to compensate. Geometry in lieu of location specific lighting and texture bakes .. this is also why most furniture is white emulsion shabby chic.

 

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Mesh importing BUT with limitations on the complexity of the items that can be uploaded or perhaps a restriction on MB size (see region section further down)

Arbitrary limits are arbitrary and easily circumvented ... is your awesome-mesh-thing way too detailed for SL to accept? Just cut it into chunks and upload individually, made add even more geometry in the process to make sure seams look perfect.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Maybe texture limits on uploads to keep textures at an acceptable size

1024 is acceptable .. tilling 1024's to get around the poor lighting and lack of texture baking isn't.. but that's what we do! Bigger textures if used correctly would improve performance and present the render engine with one map in place of 4. Altasing on the fly consumes all the benefits in time spent building the atlas.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Sound clip lengths extended to 60 seconds or more

Clip length was restricted to prevent music piracy .. didn't work out that way, so yeah, longer would be nicer.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Enhanced LSL 2.0 based on a powerful but simplified language/syntax along the lines of Python, Swift or Lua etc. With other extra features such as custom user function libraries, more enhanced debugging such as stepping through code, code cleanup, predictive function display as you type etc etc

Oh hell no. Replace something that compiles to mono-bytecode with an interpreted language just because you don't like the syntax? SL syntax isn't hard, it just has curly braces.

As for building a better in viewer IDE, go for it .. or just use an external editor.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

    -Added on to the above, more useable controls. In the present day Up, Down, Left, Right, Mouse, Pg_Up, Pg_Down and Shift + Left or Right.....is not enough

For what ?

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-High quality fully customisable starter bodies that actually look decent that ANYONE could create for instead of the elite few.

Todays awesome starter bodies are tomorrows old junk, either visually or socially; indicating that you are the poor. The perception now is anyone with a full system avatar is a greifer and should be banned on sight.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Clothing that can be created in world. One idea could be along the lines of current system clothing but more enhanced with more options, way more clothing styles, customisation and rudimentary baking for shadows and occlusion.

You can't have a well performing client and the be all and end all of development environments in the same binary .... unless someone adds emacs in which case I'm all in.

21 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

-Master user accounts and under that you create your alts which all share inventories.

A master account, sure, great idea, why they didn't do this on day one is beyond me. 

 

There are hundreds of things SL could do differently or "better", but each and everyone comes with a list of conditions that would move SL away from being SL. Sansar represents a blank slate do-over with 15 years of desires for SL in from the start, it's SL2 in all but name .. and look how well that's doing. You can't have it both ways.

[Bree Giffen]

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

What you're describing sounds nothing like SL. Might as well call it something totally different. It doesn't sound like an SL2 to me.

I think you're right. SL2 is Sansar. What I'm suggesting to fill the void is something else entirely.

[Syo Emerald]

2 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

Yes. Simplified, like a pixar person or any of that non-realistic art style you see in many CG movies. E,g. Into the Spider Verse. The tools would prevent any realism to be introduced. No outside avatars, no outside mesh brought in. Maybe even no outside textures. Everything would be provided in-world. Simpler streamlined creation that everyone participates in.

So you porpose to limit creativity, technology and individualism, aswell as driving out everyone that is not interested in a cartoon avatar? Might be easier, but also where is the incentive to start creating, if this is still supposed to be SL.

[chibiusa Ling]

7 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

 

*shrugs* They were just ideas of things I would like. Nothing more nothing less.

[purrrkitten]

18 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

I'm looking at kids playing Minecraft and Roblox and thinking to myself, "There's the next generation of SL users". It seems so obvious. Step 1 Minecraft/Roblox. Step 2.... Step 3 Profit! (Southpark reference). 

Step 2 should be Second Life but it's too old.. has too much baggage.. but is still ahead of those kid's games in terms of creative world building. I still think SL2 should be made. Using the simplified graphics style you see in many games now (See Fortnite/Overwatch) and upgraded building tools like SL prims v2 not Blender. I think the new gen (after the millenials) would move to it like bees to nectar. Maybe LL won't make it. Maybe it will take a young entrepreneur from the younger generation to see the opportunity and seize it. 

I can't see kids who play minecraft being the next generation of SL users. If anything, they're probably on imvu.

 

3 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

Yes. Simplified, like a pixar person or any of that non-realistic art style you see in many CG movies. E,g. Into the Spider Verse. The tools would prevent any realism to be introduced. No outside avatars, no outside mesh brought in. Maybe even no outside textures. Everything would be provided in-world. Simpler streamlined creation that everyone participates in.

That defeats the purpose of SL, no?

[purrrkitten]

27 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think you're right. SL2 is Sansar. What I'm suggesting to fill the void is something else entirely.

There are plenty of games that sound like what you're describing. Go on over to steam and find them.

[chibiusa Ling]

Tbh, iv said it once il say it again. If you want SL 2.0....Sinespace....

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Tbh, iv said it once il say it again. If you want SL 2.0....Sinespace....

Sinespace is deserted. Good luck finding people in world ... how about on their forums .. I guess not  (stats since 2016)

[AyelaNewLife]

40 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

What I'm suggesting to fill the void is something else entirely.

I think this is the key point here. When you called it SL2, that came with the implication that it would be a replacement for Second Life, that the worlds we know and love would cease to be in order to make room for the new creation. Hence why there's so much frothing at the mouth at the suggestion. As an independent, entirely new virtual world? Yeah, I definitely think there's room for something like that, and I don't think that place exists right now.

I also don't think that LL are the people to create that new world, but that's another discussion entirely.

[purrrkitten]

12 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Tbh, iv said it once il say it again. If you want SL 2.0....Sinespace....

I thought no one played Sinespace. 

[chibiusa Ling]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Sinespace is deserted. Good luck finding people in world ... how about on their forums .. I guess not  (stats since 2016)

Deserted or not they are the closest thing out there to SL 2.0

[Coffee Pancake]

SL is SL because of the people, not the technicalities. Take the people out and you just have yet another abandoned virtual world, of which there are and have been many.

SL's feature set has grown and continues to grow around it's users, our voices are heard and do influence development, they even accept our code and independently developed features. If you don't like SL as it stands, it is within your power to change it.

(and would this be a bad time to point out that from a technical perspective, what we currently have is something like SL6)

[Selene Gregoire]

44 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Tbh, iv said it once il say it again. If you want SL 2.0....Sinespace....

Oh. Hello.

17 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

http://sinewave.space/

[Selene Gregoire]

34 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

don't think that LL are the people to create that new world

[Selene Gregoire]

30 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

(and would this be a bad time to point out that from a technical perspective, what we currently have is something like SL6)

As I recall, back in 2003, SL was opened to the public while still in beta. I do not recall, in the years since then, LL ever announcing SL having left beta. So, technically, SL is still in beta. Unless I missed an announcement somewhere. Google doesn't turn up anything.

[ThorinII]

@CoffeeDujour, actually, I do love SL as it is -- otherwise, I wouldn't have returned to SL with this account.

However, I think the code underneath the surface of the servers AND viewer definitively should be renewed, written from scratch, so that it's entirely up-to-date. Not this mess that it's now, with all these great new functions simply added to a 15y old source code. Also, the UI of the official viewer sucks in my opinion (that's why I barely use the official viewer), I think it should have the same UI as FS in Phoenix Mode.

I also think LSL should be updated to a new version, with as much functionality as any modern script language. LSL, as it is, is in my opinion too limited, even for SL standards.

And I think an in-world tool to create optimized Mesh objects would really be a nice-to-have. In my opinion, this tool should be as easy to use as the current build tools but auto-creating optimized mesh objects instead of the usual prims; so instead of a prim cube, you would rez an optimized mesh cube as default. And yes, this new build tool should have the ability to cut and shape faces and using materials, weight, and such stuff.

Using Blender or Maya both have a very steep learning curve (which I personally can't say about SL or about building with prims) - and some former creators I've met through the years with both my accounts simply don't have the time or nerves to learn Blender or Maya. In my opinion, such a quasi-automated in-world tool would massively ease the creation process, and I think there would be many more content creators again.

 

[Bree Giffen]

18 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

http://sinewave.space/

Okay. I'll check it out. Just to give me more ideas. *shuffles feet*

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

@CoffeeDujour, actually, I do love SL as it is -- otherwise, I wouldn't have returned to SL with this account.

However, I think the code underneath the surface of the servers AND viewer definitively should be renewed, written from scratch, so that it's entirely up-to-date. Not this mess that it's now, with all these great new functions simply added to a 15y old source code. Also, the UI of the official viewer sucks in my opinion (that's why I barely use the official viewer), I think it should have the same UI as FS in Phoenix Mode.

There is very little 15 year old code left, and what remains is so generic that it would be identical if written again today. Code that works is code that works, it doesn't go bad if left alone a while;  refactoring everything for the sake of it is a great way to waste an immense amount of developer time for no real gains at the end. SL's woes are not due to the "quality" or "age" of the code, they are be design and more often than not, side effects of the very features that make SL, SL.

LL have been rewiting the server code for the last few years with a view to moving SL from there own in house datacenter to amazons cloud, parts of the service are already deployed (like the CDN). SL under the hood is brand shiny new. But databases and protocols aren't sexy so LL don't bother to make a huge fuss about it.

As for the UI .. whatever, use the viewer you like, the important part is that you log in at all. There is very little competition these days, all the main viewer teams sit down with Oz every couple of weeks and releases are coordinated.

 

As mentioned elsewhere, if you don't like something, feel free to go change it. Everyone who works on SL viewer code started from scratch.

 

4 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

I also think LSL should be updated to a new version, with as much functionality as any modern script language. LSL, as it is, is in my opinion too limited, even for SL standards.

LSL Mono is edited in the viewer, sent to the server and then compiled to mono bytecode. Compiled btyecode is a shade away from being it's own executable. This imposes some limitations to what you can do, further limitations come in the form of "crowd control" .. as any random can pick up a script and write some code, gated access to features via a complex mess of permissions is mandatory. If you find there is something you can't do in LSL, there is probably a very good reason why.

LSL old .. is in for compatibility and really shouldn't be used ever. It's disproportionately slow, huge and heavy on the server.

 

4 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

And I think an in-world tool to create optimized Mesh objects would really be a nice-to-have. In my opinion, this tool should be as easy to use as the current build tools but auto-creating optimized mesh objects instead of the usual prims; so instead of a prim cube, you would rez an optimized mesh cube as default. And yes, this new build tool should have the ability to cut and shape faces and using materials, weight, and such stuff.

Using Blender or Maya both have a very steep learning curve (which I personally can't say about SL or about building with prims) - and some former creators I've met through the years with both my accounts simply don't have the time or nerves to learn Blender or Maya. In my opinion, such a quasi-automated in-world tool would massively ease the creation process, and I think there would be many more content creators again.

You can't have it both ways. Either you have accessible 3d modelling with low learning curve OR industry standard comprehensive tools and a need to study.