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JemyMurphy

No information from Linden why I was banned twice

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I wonder if there is anything else I can do at this point. About a month back I was banned from Second Life for one hour, then the week after that I was banned for one day. After I was banned for one day I no longer felt a wish to continue my second life. I felt that the joy, time and investment here had no guarantee and all my friendships and social circle here could be disrupted. I let my avatar stand idle in my parcel for two days, only to get banned a third time in the middle of the night (as I was sleeping) after having had no interaction with anyone more than casual responses to two friends for two days.

I have a hunch who send these reports since I have had a Borderline friend who have smear campaigned me for four years and made my Second Life hell. Since we use the same sims at times, we are likely to pass the same places, but he got me banned on two sims I almost never visited and tried to get me banned on some mainstream sims as well. And now I am getting banned from the entire Second Life. I have tried most things at this point, but he is highly unstable and beyond reason.

The e-mails I got sent from Linden state I was banned state I am banned for "harassment". A copy-paste statement that is particularly vague; "Violation: Harassment. Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, actions which are likely to cause annoyance or alarm are all deemed as forms of harassment". Nothing I done in Second Life fits a moderate interpretation of these sentences. I think he filed a harassment report when I tried to reason with him, asking him for a resolution. The 3rd ban happened after not doing anything in Second Life more than being logged in after the 2nd ban was applied.

I have sent Linden tickets to get specific information about on what grounds I was banned, specifically. The first two times they sent me a copy-paste response where they stated that "Linden Lab just completed its review, at your request, of a disciplinary action taken against your account. Our investigation shows that the suspension of your account was correctly applied in alignment with the Second Life Terms & Conditions and/or Second Life Community Standards. You may review the Terms & Conditions in full at https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions. If any further information is required, Linden Lab will contact you regarding this incident. Otherwise, please consider the matter resolved." The third time the ticket was closed without comment.

Without information I have really nothing to go on, and I pretty much just expect a fourth ban whenever. Right now Second Life just feels effectively over with nothing I can do about it. Is there anything I can do at this point?

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57 minutes ago, JemyMurphy said:

I let my avatar stand idle in my parcel for two days

don't do that

some people do weird things with afk avatars and send AR's to LL.

tip: don't accuse others if you are not 150% sure if they did it.

Edited by Ethan Paslong
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See the problem is: They don't discuss the reasons...

It might have started innocent like this: Some idiots started discussing endlessly. Lindens applied a "we don't discuss it" rule. Old Lindens found better jobs. New Lindens got in. No one understands reasons for rules anymore but still applys them.

We do not know what made them act like they act now. It is not helping much I agree, but it is what we signed up for by accepting the TOS.

Edited by Fionalein
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Jemy,

LL doesn't ban based on hearsay.  By that, I mean that if I was your enemy, I could not just say, "Jemy is harassing people" and cause LL to ban you.  In addition, LL doesn't accept made-up "evidence".  I could not doctor a chat log and submit that to LL as "proof" of your offense...because they have the REAL chat logs and check them.

Also, LL does not ban frivolously.  They don't WANT to ban people, because having lots of people in SL is their business and means profit for them.

All of that means that LL really does have some proof that you engaged in some form of harassment bad enough to issue a suspension.  But...maybe it wasn't "you".  If someone else has your password, they could log in with your account and go around harassing people to get you into trouble.  Even if you didn't knowingly give someone your password, you might have clicked a URL someone gave you and visited a "phishing" website.  If you entered your user name and password, then they have your credentials.

As for getting in trouble when your avatar was just standing around AFK for a couple of days...while no one could log in as "you" while you were already logged in, I can see a scenario where someone came over, set up a scene that made it appear your avatar was harassing them, took a photo, and sent it to LL with an Abuse Report.

My advice would be:

  • Change your password right away.  Make it something hard to guess.
  • Don't leave your avatar AFK for long periods.
  • Password-protect your computer, so that no one simply walking by your machine can sit down and use it.
  • Run a thorough antivirus and malware scan of your computer, to try and find out if anyone has gotten remote access to it.  Use more than one antivirus and malware app to scan.
  • Mute the person you think is your persecutor.
  • If you own or rent land, be sure that person is on the ban list.
  • If you have solid evidence that this person harassed or defamed YOU (for example, chat logs), you can submit an Abuse Report against them.  If it was a long time ago, though, don't bother.  LL doesn't keep their official chat log files forever, and the evidence may no longer exist (remember, LL won't accept YOUR chat logs as evidence, only as a guide for where to look in the official record.)

If you continue to experience problems that upset you, you can consider making another account, an alt.  Then you can continue to enjoy SL, and make new (and hopefully, better) friends.  Just be sure to tell NO ONE about your new identity.  Don't look up your old friends or visit the old places.

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7 hours ago, JemyMurphy said:

The e-mails I got sent from Linden state I was banned state I am banned for "harassment". A copy-paste statement that is particularly vague; "Violation: Harassment. Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, actions which are likely to cause annoyance or alarm are all deemed as forms of harassment". 

Now this would have me beyond frustrated. I haven't dealt with a ban issue but I would expect them to at least give a specific answer when a resident makes a specific inquiry. Otherwise I do not see how that helps teach a lesson about what resident did wrong if the 'offender' doesn't know in the first place.

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This isn't meant as an excuse, but I suspect that there are at least two things at play here. 

First, SL is not RL, where there are laws, policeman, and courts to manage suspected violations.  LL is a private corporation.  It makes the rules (the TOS) and we can either accept them or not use the product.  The best we can expect is that they will apply their own rules consistently.  Ultimately, the bottom line is that we all agreed to the TOS, which includes

5.3 We may terminate your Account(s) to protect the best interests of the Service and the community or if we believe you pose an unacceptable risk to the community.

We may terminate your Account if we determine in our discretion that such action is necessary or advisable to comply with legal requirements or protect the rights or interests of Linden Lab, the Service community or any third party.

In other words, if they decide that they don't want you around, they can tell you to leave.  No further argument.

Second, I have no idea how many Abuse Reports LL has to deal with every day.  I suspect it's a hefty number, though, and that most are pretty trivial but time-consuming things that deal with open and shut infractions.  Providing full details in every notice of a suspension would add a lot of work, and I rather suspect that most people know what they've done to get suspended.

Again, not an excuse, but an explanation.  Maybe.

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This is one of those one-sided 'they-said-I-said' type discussions. We can't know what is going on. 

Each month there is a Governance UG meeting. The schedule is posted in the SL Wiki. Attending the meeting allows one to meet the people doing the ToS enforcement.

Our world bombards us with psychological warfare propaganda everyday. While using the word warfare is a bit of hyperbole commercial and political agents are using psychologists to prepare messages and create influence. Today (2/7) the Military Times has an article how the Military is moving to step up their psychological propaganda. Unfortunately, within this mess we learn by osmosis, seeing and hearing tactics we see as effective and adopt both consciously and unconsciously. Dehumanizing a group of people is an OLD tactic. We tend to do that with the Lab. So, we are talking with an actual person about 'The Lab' putting the Lab at a definite disadvantage.

If you are one that prefers intellectual honesty and the quest for truth, you'll have to figure out how to stay balanced in such one-sided discussions.

I would recommend attending the UG meeting and pointing out to Governance management this recurring problem. I've seen a number of complaints like the OP's here in the forum. Obviously when they investigate they know the number of complaints, time, and date of the offense or offenses. It seems reasonable to me that they might include time, date, place, and the pertinent section of the ToS in their email. 

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3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Aren’t we banned from discussing bans?

No.   Forum guidelines forbid questioning the decision of a moderator.  The OP and responders in this thread are not questioning the outcome of a decision.  I think we're cool  Just duck if Patch gets too close to your eyes. ;)

 

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That is some valid advice. I have plenty of logs like that. Especially when it comes to exploiting real life information for genuine threats and blackmail.

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1 hour ago, MirandaBowers said:
8 hours ago, JemyMurphy said:

The e-mails I got sent from Linden state I was banned state I am banned for "harassment". A copy-paste statement that is particularly vague; "Violation: Harassment. Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, actions which are likely to cause annoyance or alarm are all deemed as forms of harassment".

Now this would have me beyond frustrated. I haven't dealt with a ban issue but I would expect them to at least give a specific answer when a resident makes a specific inquiry. Otherwise I do not see how that helps teach a lesson about what resident did wrong if the 'offender' doesn't know in the first place.

This is probably one of my biggest frustrations with LL. At least in RL, if you are charged with a crime, you are told specifically what you did.  LL seems to prefer staying very vague about everything.  

I received a warning here in the forums once, but never did receive the specifics of what I had done.  Despite a few requests, all I got was generalities, leaving me guessing as to what might have caused it and thus what I probably shouldn't do in the future.  Making it more difficult is when I've seen posts doing things similiar to what I'm guessing I got slapped for.

Lindal says that LL doesn't want to ban people.  While I assume that is true, I also thus cannot figure out why they would not give exact details of what the infraction was so that the person can ensure they do not repeat it.

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Governance have said at their User Group meetings that a ban email DOES contain specific info on WHY you were banned, not just the specific part of the TOS you violated etc.

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On 2/6/2019 at 2:39 PM, Fionalein said:

See the problem is: They don't discuss the reasons...

It might have started innocent like this: Some idiots started discussing endlessly. Lindens applied a "we don't discuss it" rule. Old Lindens found better jobs. New Lindens got in. No one understands reasons for rules anymore but still applys them.

We do not know what made them act like they act now. It is not helping much I agree, but it is what we signed up for by accepting the TOS.

I had no clue about them having a "no explanation" policy. They did even explain to me that they had a no explanation policy... At least I can stop sending them tickets.

 

18 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

This is probably one of my biggest frustrations with LL. At least in RL, if you are charged with a crime, you are told specifically what you did.  LL seems to prefer staying very vague about everything.  

I received a warning here in the forums once, but never did receive the specifics of what I had done.  Despite a few requests, all I got was generalities, leaving me guessing as to what might have caused it and thus what I probably shouldn't do in the future.  Making it more difficult is when I've seen posts doing things similiar to what I'm guessing I got slapped for.

Lindal says that LL doesn't want to ban people.  While I assume that is true, I also thus cannot figure out why they would not give exact details of what the infraction was so that the person can ensure they do not repeat it.

True. I have no idea now, making the ban effectively meaningless.

On 2/6/2019 at 3:47 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

Jemy,

LL doesn't ban based on hearsay.  By that, I mean that if I was your enemy, I could not just say, "Jemy is harassing people" and cause LL to ban you.  In addition, LL doesn't accept made-up "evidence".  I could not doctor a chat log and submit that to LL as "proof" of your offense...because they have the REAL chat logs and check them.

Also, LL does not ban frivolously.  They don't WANT to ban people, because having lots of people in SL is their business and means profit for them.

All of that means that LL really does have some proof that you engaged in some form of harassment bad enough to issue a suspension.

That is a bit comforting.

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5 hours ago, belindacarson said:

Governance have said at their User Group meetings that a ban email DOES contain specific info on WHY you were banned, not just the specific part of the TOS you violated etc.

I think our ideas and the Lindens ideas of "specific" are different.

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I think this a deliberate effort to stop those who like to figure out where the boundaries are and stay technically just in the safe zone and work around the rules to continue to exhibit bad behaviour.

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5 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I think this a deliberate effort to stop those who like to figure out where the boundaries are and stay technically just in the safe zone and work around the rules to continue to exhibit bad behaviour.

A police would never do that, because there are a good quantity of the population, about 5-10%, who are prone to make false reports, and exploit authorities and report-systems as weapon. The police is trained to see these conditions and have routine that protects the real victim in these cases. Companies and sim owners are behind on these conditions and handle things as they see. When a self-destructive erratic person is out to get you and use false reports, smear campaigns, and rally people against you, they exploit biases and poison the well before you even go to it. Before I met the person who targeted me I had no idea how to defend myself against this. I did everything a normal person can do, and over time I ended up buying books and joining communities of people who fallen victim to the same situation.

I am dependent on understanding how authorities sets boundaries in order to have my Second Life. Not to conduct "bad behavior", but to have my Second Life back to what it was prior to interacting with this person in the first place. If I had a spell that made him forget I exist, I would use it and get my Second Life back. Before I met this person I had a free reign to visit the premium sims that provided the content I was interested in, and I could explore freely and experience new things. After meeting this person he have been stating that I am in sims just to "stalk him" which I am not. He managed to ban me from several sims before I ever visited those places. For a long time, much of my Second Life ended up to be about him, forcing me to do things like checking if he is online before even daring to teleport around like I used to, because if he see me, he will use that against me.

People advice me to get a new avatar, or to block him. The first is basically giving up the hundreds of thousands of Linden I invested and my entire social circle from years back and my trade, my sim and my Second Life, just to shield myself from the one single person who hold all the power. The latter have no effect. He have me blocked. The things he do he do without my presence. I also have little means of reporting him back, but I am checking the possibility to report the real life threats he made.

Edited by JemyMurphy

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@JemyMurphy, my last post was my opinion about LL's possible motivation, nothing more.  I definitely think it would be better if they were able to give out more specific information than they apparently do but they don't and it could be for good reasons that we cannot appreciate.

I will say this though, LL's staff aren't the police, they wouldn't have that kind of training and nothing actually compels them to make sure they are fair, level-handed in every case or even dig too deeply into each situation.  However, I do think they do their best within the resource constraints they have with this stuff and no corporation providing a service on the internet gets it right all the time.  This is what you signed up for when you joined.  Sometimes life sucks and isn't fair.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

@JemyMurphy, my last post was my opinion about LL's possible motivation, nothing more.  I definitely think it would be better if they were able to give out more specific information than they apparently do but they don't and it could be for good reasons that we cannot appreciate.

I will say this though, LL's staff aren't the police, they wouldn't have that kind of training and nothing actually compels them to make sure they are fair, level-handed in every case or even dig too deeply into each situation.  However, I do think they do their best within the resource constraints they have with this stuff and no corporation providing a service on the internet gets it right all the time.  This is what you signed up for when you joined.  Sometimes life sucks and isn't fair.

Most of social media have the same issue, and people who specifically learned how to exploit this to their advantage. False DMCA claims were used frequently on youtube and on Facebook people teamed up in groups to file reports against the same person they didn't like. Things are getting better though and given 1-2 more decades, the internet services hopefully improved to better and better standards.

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ladies and gentlemen... i see in my crystal ball this thread is going to be locked soon...

we're in the Answers section, not GD.

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40 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

ladies and gentlemen... i see in my crystal ball this thread is going to be locked soon...

we're in the Answers section, not GD.

Did you answer? I sort by vote, so stuff gets lost.

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15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Did you answer? I sort by vote, so stuff gets lost.

look at the top....grins....

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