Linden Balance

[Shelenn Ayres]

Hello everyone! I've decided to engage in the SL economy. However, until I have enough Lindens to cover the cost of a premium account, I don't want to pay the premium membership price. So I have three questions I was unable to find answers to upon searching the forums:

1) Will my existing Linden balance before premium account upgrade be included in Lindens that can be cashed out after upgrading to a premium account?

2) Where is the break even in number of Lindens to build up in my account before upgrading to premium to cover costs?

3) What is the maximum Linden amount I can cash out weekly?

 

[Shelenn Ayres]

Given what was posted about selling L$ to put USD in the account "bank" without a premium account one has to wonder why LL does not let people use L$ to pay instead of USD. Then you realize they charge the flat rate US$1.49 transaction fee.

[Ethan Paslong]

30 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

Given what was posted about selling L$ to put USD in the account "bank" without a premium account one has to wonder why LL does not let people use L$ to pay instead of USD. Then you realize they charge the flat rate US$1.49 transaction fee.

not thats not the reason. As soon you spend money, and are able to make that real dollars LL has to report to the IRS or your TAX office as soon you pass a certain treshhold ( depending on your country) Thats also the reason you need to give your real life details with proof of identity upon request in this process.

 

53 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

Interesting as I was told by several people you cannot sell lindens for dollars without a premium account... i will look into it. But the use case analysis requires the avatar not be homeless. So, if the avatar without a premium account has no home they are homeless until they earn enough to buy land pay tier and build or buy a house and all its furnishings yes?

I think you should sit down and read everything carefully, because i see now questions come that are answered a few times above already.
Premium is never required to participate in SL's economy or have a home.
Think its pretty safe to state that most people with a home are nót premium for that because they rent on Estates. Those are not LL operated but owned by Residents that rent out parcels or even full sims.

You can rent land without premium. Many landlords also accept paypal or other sources for the rent. Of course you won't get stipend or any of the other benefits for being premium when you choose to rent and keep your account basic.

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

Interesting as I was told by several people you cannot sell lindens for dollars without a premium account... i will look into it. But the use case analysis requires the avatar not be homeless. So, if the avatar without a premium account has no home they are homeless until they earn enough to buy land pay tier and build or buy a house and all its furnishings yes?

"Several people" told you things that are flat out wrong, then.  I have been here for twelve years, have never  been Premium, and have both bought and sold L$ many times.  Premium members get a one-time startup bonus after they have been in SL for 45 continuous days, and they get a L$300/week stipend.  Basic members get no startup bonus and no stipend. 

No matter whether you are a Premium or a Basic member, Linden Lab places a cap on the amount of trading you can do in the LindeX per month, partly as a way to discourage money laundering by short-term account holders and partly to protect new members from spending more money than they should before they understand how SL works.  The caps are rather low at first and increase gradually once you have been in SL for a while and have established a pattern of responsible trading. (No, nobody knows how that pattern is assessed. Linden Lab's security and anti-fraud algorithms are closely held secrets.)

Premium members get a land fee waiver that is applied automatically to cover the monthly fees for the first 1024 sq m of land that they own on the Mainland continent (whether that is in a Linden Home or in land that they have bought outright).  The waiver cannot be used in private estates and does not apply to rented land.  Basic members get no land fee waiver anywhere.

I have also owned a private estate for the past six years.  Before that, I rented in several places, and built homes or shops in each of them. As far as land ownership is concerned, the only difference between a Basic member and a Premium member is that a Basic member cannot own land on the Mainland continent.  Premium members may buy land anywhere, and anyone may rent land anywhere.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

And another thing or two...

I said earlier, "It's not easy to earn enough $L in world to pay for land and a home."  What I meant was, you will find this very hard to do if you stick to things like playing Linden Realms, fishing for $L, or working at jobs like exotic dancer, club host, or escort.  You CAN make enough $L to support your SL habit, though.  I own about 3/4 of a region and manage about 20 rentals there.  The income pays my tier, my annual Premium membership, and supports my shopping habit.

Also, you seem to be interested in trading $L.  Because LL controls the price swings in the $L to $USD exchange rate, the rate fluctuates only in a very narrow range (except for very rare events.  A few years ago, the exchange rate dropped from around $L270/$1 USD to its current $L250:1.  It has not swung back.)  It's theoretically possible to "buy low and sell high", but even if you are successful, you will have to trade really huge sums to show any profit.  That also means you will be tying up significant amounts of real money waiting for that favorable exchange.  You could probably do better by buying lottery tickets in bulk.

 

[Shelenn Ayres]

13 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

not thats not the reason. As soon you spend money, and are able to make that real dollars LL has to report to the IRS or your TAX office as soon you pass a certain treshhold ( depending on your country) Thats also the reason you need to give your real life details with proof of identity upon request in this process.

 

I think you should sit down and read everything carefully, because i see now questions come that are answered a few times above already.
Premium is never required to participate in SL's economy or have a home.
Think its pretty safe to state that most people with a home are nót premium for that because they rent on Estates. Those are not LL operated but owned by Residents that rent out parcels or even full sims.

You can rent land without premium. Many landlords also accept paypal or other sources for the rent. Of course you won't get stipend or any of the other benefits for being premium when you choose to rent and keep your account basic.

Because this is a discussion and I want to be sure anyone who responds is acknowledged, I quote each separately. Yes I realize some of the answers given have redundancy (this is a good thing to have concurrence). My comment about being able to pay using Lindens specifically refers to the situation posed by another where a premium account is not used and therefore not related to 1099 reporting requirements. In that comment, we were discussing being able to sell Lindens without having a premium account while my comments back and forth with you are with regard to using a premium account. I found the default sort filter for the forum makes it more difficult to follow the convo so I changed mine to sort by date. Thanks to everyone who participates! I really appreciate the sharing of information and wisdom. I truly did not expect this thread to evolve beyond the three answers I was looking for (yes or no), (numerical L$), (numerical L$) and related followup regarding limits. But it's been a great share of knowledge!

The original three questions have been explained to be part of an analysis to answer the basic question of "What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream." The goal in answering these questions is to present the analysis to new users who do not have the option to leave home to work - specifically, but not limited to, people with disabilities. While it is true that it is possible to earn without buying L$ and eventually have a home, this analysis was based on initial USD investment to bypass the time it takes to earn L$ and have an established revenue stream to pay ongoing fees. I did not go into the details of why I was asking the questions in hopes of avoiding long conversations but c'est la vie  I will engage in the economy but I wanted to do more than that. My plan is to share information with others who are disabled like myself.

 

The research question: What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL.

The original three questions associated with the research question:

1) Will my existing Linden balance before premium account upgrade be included in Lindens that can be cashed out after upgrading to a premium account? Answer: Yes

2) Where is the break even in number of Lindens to build up in my account before upgrading to premium to cover costs? Answer (assume no stipend spending): roughly L$ 18000 to start equivalent to US$72 for best value annual premium fee. 

3) What is the maximum Linden amount I can cash out weekly? Answer: Other than high end producers, most have a limit equivalent to US$1999 daily with the same rolling 30 day limit. (This is per avatar and is not addressing the strategies of some to have multiple avatars earning income.)

Further discussion has led to some further conclusions which can shape a final approach of choices for a new user that has the research question in mind. In a nutshell, we can collectively conclude the following is true to: exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL.

 

To exist in SL, one must:

Create a free account. 

 

To exist and not be homeless in SL one must:

Have a land grant home (this requires ongoing known fees be paid)

Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid)

Be "gifted" a home (someone else is paying unknown fees)

 

To exist, not be homeless, and live (have L$ to pay fees) in SL, one must:

Be gifted L$

Earn or win L$ or

Buy L$

 

There is concurrence that a premium account is not needed to buy and sell L$ because USD can be banked to pay fees. A verified payment method is required to cashout in USD. However, to exist, not be homeless, live, and create an income stream of USD spent outside of SL, one might want to:

Signup for a premium account (best value is annual payment at US$6/mth).

Premium accounts come with L$1300/mth stipend plus a Linden Home where the land it sits on is a "grant" meaning no extra fee. 

 

So, for a premium account, this either requires one to:

Find a way to be gifted, earn, win, or buy around L$18000 as an investment to start then be on the hook to be gifted, earn, win, or buy another L$18000 to cover the upcoming annual fee

or

Invest US$144 then work to be gifted, earn, win, or buy at least L$300/mth to sustain existence with more to live and create an income spent outside of SL

 

All of the comments, feedback, and advice here are valued tyvm! We all have different goals for existence and living in virtual worlds. This was a fun way (for me) to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills. Some of the comments here appear hostile but I believe those to be associated with misunderstandings - no ill will from me.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Shelenn Ayres

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

<snip>

The original three questions have been explained to be part of an analysis to answer the basic question of "What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream." The goal in answering these questions is to present the analysis to new users who do not have the option to leave home to work - specifically, but not limited to, people with disabilities. While it is true that it is possible to earn without buying L$ and eventually have a home, this analysis was based on initial USD investment to bypass the time it takes to earn L$ and have an established revenue stream to pay ongoing fees. I did not go into the details of why I was asking the questions in hopes of avoiding long conversations but c'est la vie  I will engage in the economy but I wanted to do more than that. My plan is to share information with others who are disabled like myself.

 

The research question: 

<snip>

 

 This was a fun way to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills.

So your opening post was not fully honest in what was prompting the questions.  We were simply being interviewed for your research project.

 

[Rolig Loon]

9 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

To exist and not be homeless in SL one must:

Have a land grant home (this requires ongoing known fees be paid)

Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid)

Be gifted a home (someone else is paying unknown fees)

No, you still have it wrong.  Anyone may rent land anywhere in SL, whether she/he is a Basic or a Premium member.  Anyone who rents land (in fact, many more people rent than are landowners) may build a home. 

You also can not be "gifted" a home.  You either own the land or you do not.  If you own the land, you are responsible for paying the land fees to Linden Lab each month.  If you are renting, you are responsible for paying rent to the landowner, who must pay Linden Lab for the fand fees.  If you are occupying land that you do not rent or own, you are either a guest of the owner, who can let you be there out of the goodness of her heart, or you are squatting on the land.  In that latter case, your days are numbered.  You will be evicted reasonably soon.

And there is no such beast as a "land grant home."  You are referring to Linden Homes.

[Shelenn Ayres]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

That is absolutely not true, not any of it.

You do NOT need a premium account to sell $L.  What you DO need is a valid payment method on file.  If you want to move $USD out of your SL account and back to your pocket, that payment method needs to be a verified PayPal or Skrill account.

You do NOT need a premium account to have a home in SL.  You can rent a home or vacant land on the Mainland, or in any of thousands of private estates.

You do NOT need to "earn enough" $L to buy land and a home.  Most people use a credit card or a verified PayPal or Skrill account to buy $L to pay for their in world expenses, including rent/home ownership.  It's not easy to earn enough $L in world to pay for land and a home.  (It IS possible though; some successful content creators and landlords even use their income from SL to pay their Real Life expenses...SL is their full time job.)

You can participate all you want in the "SL economy" without a premium membership.  You can earn $L, exchange them for $USD, cash out those dollars and buy a Big Mac.  Conversely, you can use your credit card to buy $L and live like a millionaire in SL for about the price of a movie and dinner a month in the real world.

The only thing you need a Premium membership for is for its benefits.  As several people have said, paying for a yearly membership has a very low actual cost, given the value of the benefits.  See my blog post: https://acrossthegridwithlindal.blogspot.com/2018/01/premium-benefits-creep.html

You are waaaaaaay overthinking this, Shelenn.

Part of research analysis is what some call overthinking. I like to consider all the pros and cons of every aspect. The question was not just associated with the things you mentioned but good to know a premium account is not required to cashout. However, there is far more involved in the use case where the benefits of a premium account can be advantageous. No matter what, to do anything in SL other than go to events, explore, build in the SB, or make friends, one needs L$ unless someone else is paying for everything for them. Spending L$ is what I call participating in the economy aka living in SL.

[LittleMe Jewell]

18 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

<snip>

The goal in answering these questions is to present the analysis to new users who do not have the option to leave home to work - specifically, but not limited to, people with disabilities. <snip>  My plan is to share information with others who are disabled like myself.

 

 In a nutshell, we can collectively conclude the following is true to: exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL.

 

To exist in SL, one must:

Create a free account. 

 

To exist and not be homeless in SL one must:

Have a land grant home (this requires ongoing known fees be paid)

Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid)

Be gifted a home (someone else is paying unknown fees)

 

To exist, not be homeless, and live (have L$ to pay fees) in SL, one must:

Be gifted L$

Earn or win L$

Buy L$

 

There is concurrence that a premium account is not needed to buy and sell L$ because USD can be banked to pay fees. However, to exist, not be homeless, live, and create an income stream of USD spent outside of SL, one must:

Signup for a premium account (best value is annual payment at US$6/mth).

Premium accounts come with L$1300/mth stipend plus a land grant home. 

 

So this either requires one to:

Find a way to be gifted, earn, win, or buy around L$18000 as an investment to start then be on the hook to be gifted, earn, win, or buy another L$18000 to cover the upcoming annual fee

or

Invest US$144 then work to be gifted, earn, win, or buy at least L$300/mth to sustain existance with more to live and create an income spent outside of SL

 

<snip>

This was a fun way to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills.

Based on what you have come away with as being "true", I would highly suggest that you avoid trying to help any new users for quite some time.

[Shelenn Ayres]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

So your opening post was not fully honest in what was prompting the questions.  We were simply being interviewed for your research project.

 

Not true. I personally wanted to know the answers to the three questions for myself as a longtime user of SL planning to participate in the economy. I was looking for 3 answers: yes or no to question 1 and numerical L$ values for questions 2 and 3. But I also do a lot of work in virtual worlds associated with empowering disabled and homebound users in other technologies so it is a natural extension to posit a research question and provide the same analysis for others to benefit from. As an engineer and researcher, analysis is just part of my approach to life  If others can benefit that is a great result IMO.

[Shelenn Ayres]

9 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

No, you still have it wrong.  Anyone may rent land anywhere in SL, whether she/he is a Basic or a Premium member.  Anyone who rents land (in fact, many more people rent than are landowners) may build a home. 

You also can not be "gifted" a home.  You either own the land or you do not.  If you own the land, you are responsible for paying the land fees to Linden Lab each month.  If you are renting, you are responsible for paying rent to the landowner, who must pay Linden Lab for the fand fees.  If you are occupying land that you do not rent or own, you are either a guest of the owner, who can let you be there out of the goodness of her heart, or you are squatting on the land.  In that latter case, your days are numbered.  You will be evicted reasonably soon.

And there is no such beast as a "land grant home."  You are referring to Linden Homes.

You still need L$. When I say gifted I mean someone else is paying the fees. Someone else referred to the home that comes with the premium account as a land grant. Technically, the premium page calls them Linden Homes. I believe the other person used the term land grant correctly because Linden is granting the land these homes sit on and not requiring fees for the land as required elsewhere. Let's not get caught up in semantics  I don't understand the hostility.

[Shelenn Ayres]

The thread is getting out of hand with some hostility and misunderstandings so I am going to post an edited summary here:

I am a long time user of SL but only as one who is just existing in SL not living (having a home and spending). I want to engage in the SL economy. I want to do this in a cost effective manner. Time has value so US$ investments compared to time to earn L$ is a factor in analysis as well as premium account features. Because I intend to cashout, I want to be sure I comply also with all tax and reporting laws and not hold USD in my account "bank" that is unreported. Finally, I want to share the end result of the analysis with others who are disabled or homebound that want to engage in the SL economy in the event they find it helpful.

Crowdsourcing knowledge is how we all learn from and help each other. I believed using this forum would be a good way to do that. So, first I needed to answer three basic questions then a couple of followup questions. I realize now (after reading some of the responses) that some of you who don't know me personally can easily misinterpret my intentions. I could easily have made a couple of calls to LL and gotten answers to my questions. I chose instead to be public and transparent in a reach to the community of users. I don't regret it even if it has taken far more time to do so. Thanks to everyone who participated! Here is the summary edited to include feedback from you up to the time of this post.

 

The personal research question: What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL.

The original three questions I formed associated with my personal research question:

1) Will my existing Linden balance before premium account upgrade be included in Lindens that can be cashed out after upgrading to a premium account? Answer: Yes

2) Where is the break even in number of Lindens to build up in my account before upgrading to premium to cover costs? Answer (assume no stipend spending): roughly L$ 18000 to start equivalent to US$72 for best value annual premium fee. 

3) What is the maximum Linden amount I can cash out weekly? Answer: Other than high end producers, most have a limit equivalent to US$1999 daily with the same rolling 30 day limit. (This is per avatar and is not addressing the strategies of some to have multiple avatars earning income.) Yes I know one must gradually increase to get that limit.

I never intended for the discussion on this thread to include the use case of NOT having a premium account. I welcomed it because I believe everyone's voice has value. Further discussion has led to some further conclusions (thanks for the corrections) which can shape a final approach of choices for a new user that has the research question in mind. In a nutshell, we can collectively conclude the following is true to: exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL.

 

To exist in SL, one must:

Create a free account. 

 

To exist and not be homeless in SL one must:

Have a home provided with a premium account (this requires ongoing known fees be paid)

Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid)

Rent a home (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid) OR

Be "gifted" a home (someone else is paying unknown fees)

 

To exist, not be homeless, and live (have L$ to pay fees) in SL, one must:

Be gifted L$

Earn or win L$ OR

Buy L$

(The premium account stipend (bought by US$) covers most of the cost of a premium account but additional L$ are still needed else more USD must be spent for the premium account.)

 

There is concurrence that a premium account is not needed to buy and sell L$ because USD can be banked to pay fees. A verified payment method is all that is required to cashout in USD. However, to exist, not be homeless, live, and create an income stream of USD spent outside of SL, one might want to (because of its value and instant engagement in the SL economy):

Signup for a premium account (best value is annual payment at US$6/mth).

Premium accounts come with L$1300/mth stipend plus a Linden Home where the land it sits on is a "grant" meaning no extra fee. 

 

So, for a premium account from the original thought, this either requires one to:

Find a way to be gifted, earn, win, or buy around L$18000 as an investment to start then be on the hook to be gifted, earn, win, or buy another L$18000 to cover the upcoming annual fee

OR

Invest US$144 (starting year and upcoming year) then work to be gifted, earn, win, or buy at least L$300/mth to sustain existence with more to live and create an income spent outside of SL

 

Which approach I take is not relevant to any approach another takes. But, since all of this information is not clearly presented on any SL webpage that I could find, I believe the discussion was beneficial because it provides more information for new users to consider and not be dependent on "guessing their way around".

 

All of the comments, feedback, and advice here are valued tyvm! We all have different goals for existence and living in virtual worlds. This was a fun way (for me) to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills. Some of the comments here appear quite hostile but I believe those to be associated with misunderstandings - no ill will from me. Have a great weekend!

[Shelenn Ayres]

1 minute ago, Ethan Paslong said:

as i don't understand why you didn't play it open from the start, all information you need is in the knowledgebase and you pulled it out of us, residents who spend their free time here, as if you can't find it. All answers are patiently given and you keep comming with additional remarks and change of point of view.
We in the Netherlands have a saying.... "there are so many trees here, you even can't see the forrest anymore " ... thats what this thread became.

And finally it's for a project... shakes head...

no you do not need money to have a very good and meaningfull Second Life. It makes it easier, faster and convienent... but not a requirement. There are thousends of people here in SL that never spend a single real dollar.
The same for being Premium, or have a house, it's no to all, you can do without and your SL won't be a lot different than the average premium member with all benefits his subscription brings.

I didn't say anything about a meaningful Second Life - that is outside the scope of the questions. Simply existing in SL surely has meaning. What you are calling a project is me personally - nothing dishonest about that. Wanting to share knowledge with others who might benefit is what you call a project that is fine - but it is a good thing to share with others so they can possibly benefit as well. Perhaps us being from different cultures plays a role in your interpretation of my intent. Have a good day.

[Shelenn Ayres]

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

And another thing or two...

I said earlier, "It's not easy to earn enough $L in world to pay for land and a home."  What I meant was, you will find this very hard to do if you stick to things like playing Linden Realms, fishing for $L, or working at jobs like exotic dancer, club host, or escort.  You CAN make enough $L to support your SL habit, though.  I own about 3/4 of a region and manage about 20 rentals there.  The income pays my tier, my annual Premium membership, and supports my shopping habit.

Also, you seem to be interested in trading $L.  Because LL controls the price swings in the $L to $USD exchange rate, the rate fluctuates only in a very narrow range (except for very rare events.  A few years ago, the exchange rate dropped from around $L270/$1 USD to its current $L250:1.  It has not swung back.)  It's theoretically possible to "buy low and sell high", but even if you are successful, you will have to trade really huge sums to show any profit.  That also means you will be tying up significant amounts of real money waiting for that favorable exchange.  You could probably do better by buying lottery tickets in bulk.

 

I have no interest in trading. Only one reference was made to get yesterday's average exchange rate for the basis of analysis and discussion.

[Ethan Paslong]

7 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

 so I am going to post an edited summary here:

you can summarize everything, but when you keep taking/presenting all what you say as need, must, and have to, you miss the total point of SL ...

[Shelenn Ayres]

9 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

you can summarize everything, but when you keep taking/presenting all what you say as need, must, and have to, you miss the total point of SL ...

This thread is not about the quality of life in SL. It is about the cost where premium accounts are concerned. This is a Linden Dollars forum.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Shelenn Ayres

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

You still need L$. When I say gifted I mean someone else is paying the fees. Someone else referred to the home that comes with the premium account as a land grant. Technically, the premium page calls them Linden Homes. I believe the other person used the term land grant correctly because Linden is granting the land these homes sit on and not requiring fees for the land as required elsewhere. Let's not get caught up in semantics  I don't understand the hostility.

Not hostility.  What you may sense is a mixture of mild impatience and bemusement at how difficult it seems to be for you to understand some rather basic things about SL.  The "semantics" are significant.  If you are seriously trying to do a research project that will benefit SL newcomers, then you almost certainly don't want to confuse them by ignoring the native language here.  We do not have "land grants" here.  We have Linden Homes. 

In fact, if you were trying to draw a parallel.with the Land Grant program in the US of 1852, it's a poor one, and whoever chose to use the term has misled you. The US Land Grant program involved an outright deed of land -- no house -- by the U.S. government to a settler, to do with as he pleased.  A Linden Homes parcel is an odd duck, owned by the resident who occupies it but really in a role closer to that of a tenant farmer. That is, the resident may exercise the rights of land ownership, but is not allowed to sell the land, remove or replace the home on it, or modify the home except by adding unlinked internal components like walls and decks.  The resident has a Linden Home by virtue of having chosen to use a Premium benefit that he has paid for.  As I explained earlier, he may use that benefit to cover the monthly land fees on either a Linden Home or up to 1024 sq m of land that he owns on the Mainland.  Or he may choose not to use the benefit at all. In any case, he has paid for it.  "Someone else" is not paying the fees. It is not a "grant" but a service that he has paid money for up front.

[MoiraKathleen]

34 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills.

While this is a very admirable goal, I just want to add a cautionary comment, although if you are already a creator or scripter in SL you may already be aware of this.  There is a lot of competition.  The big popular events can be difficult for new creators to initially get into.  Even if someone is very talented, I imagine that it will take both time and a lot of hard work to get noticed and to develop a large enough client base in order to create a worthwhile real income stream.  It's not impossible, but I think it is more difficult for people starting out now than it might have been in the earlier days of SL.   Whatever business endeavors people start up in SL,  they should be doing it initially because they enjoy it, they always wanted to do it, etc., and then if it develops into something that provides then with a real income, that's even better.  I think the love of whatever they're doing will help get them through the hard times of getting the endeavor off the ground.

[Shelenn Ayres]

7 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Not hostility.  What you may sense is a mixture of mild impatience and bemusement at how difficult it seems to be for you to understand some rather basic things about SL.  The "semantics" are significant.  If you are seriously trying to do a research project that will benefit SL newcomers, then you almost certainly don't want to confuse them by ignoring the native language here.  We do not have "land grants" here.  We have Linden Homes. 

In fact, if you were trying to draw a parallel.with the Land Grant program in the US of 1852, it's a poor one, and whoever chose to use the term has misled you. The US Land Grant program involved an outright deed of land -- no house -- by the U.S. government to a settler, to do with as he pleased.  A Linden Homes parcel is an odd duck, owned by the resident who occupies it but really in a role closer to that of a tenant farmer. That is, the resident may exercise the rights of land ownership, but is not allowed to sell the land, remove or replace the home on it, or modify the home except by adding unlinked internal components like walls and decks.  The resident has a Linden Home by virtue of having chosen to use a Premium benefit that he has paid for.  As I explained earlier, he may use that benefit to cover the monthly land fees on either a Linden Home or up to 1024 sq m of land that he owns on the Mainland.  Or he may choose not to use the benefit at all. In any case, he has paid for it.  "Someone else" is not paying the fees. It is not a "grant" but a service that he has paid money for up front.

As I said before. Semantics in this conversation are associated with Linden Labs terminology versus real world terminology. n the real world, if I allow someone to use my land without paying any fee for it, I am granting them that right to do so. So I totally get the other poster's reference to the home that comes with the premium account as a land grant home. I also totally get your preference to use Linden Labs terminology as Linden Home and understand the importance of it. What I eventually share with others elsewhere will have the relevant terminology explanation to avoid confusion. I am not including any information about land costs, tiers, rentals, etc - they are outside the scope of my personal research question.

This thread is supposed to be about the cost of living in SL via a premium account and was such created on a Linden Dollar forum. But all the inputs are valued  I simply dismiss the insults as unintended.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Shelenn Ayres

[Shelenn Ayres]

5 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

While this is a very admirable goal, I just want to add a cautionary comment, although if you are already a creator or scripter in SL you may already be aware of this.  There is a lot of competition.  The big popular events can be difficult for new creators to initially get into.  Even if someone is very talented, I imagine that it will take both time and a lot of hard work to get noticed and to develop a large enough client base in order to create a worthwhile real income stream.  It's not impossible, but I think it is more difficult for people starting out now than it might have been in the earlier days of SL.   Whatever business endeavors people start up in SL,  they should be doing it initially because they enjoy it, they always wanted to do it, etc., and then if it develops into something that provides then with a real income, that's even better.  I think the love of whatever they're doing will help get them through the hard times of getting the endeavor off the ground.

Yes I totally agree. I don't think anyone would venture into virtual worlds unless they enjoyed it. For the case of people who are homebound or disabled to have the opportunity to be in an environment that is empowering is a good thing. There are certainly issues that keep the disabled digitally marginalized within virtual worlds because of software limitations and approaches that builders are not aware they need to take. But that is a different topic I am working on with relevant organizations. But for SL in general, as well as other virtual world technology platforms, the possibility of earning some income to offset their real world costs doing something they enjoy is even better! There are far more things that can be done other than creating things to sell in a highly competitive marketplace.

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, Shelenn Ayres said:

This thread is supposed to be about the cost of living in SL via a premium account and was such created on a Linden Dollar forum. But all the inputs are valued  I simply dismiss the insults as unintended.

Thank you.  If you detected any, they were not in my mind as I wrote here.  

As you have discovered in the many comments here, the economic system in SL is intimately intertwined with land ownership, creative activity, membership status, and a host of other things -- just as it is in RL.  It is not easy to separate economics from the rest of life -- perhaps not even wise.  If there's a common thread to much of what people have said here, it is to that point.  As you correctly noted, you cannot avoid dealing with L$ unless you choose to simply explore, chat with people, and attend events.  Many people do exactly that, of course, but they are outside the scope of your study.  The reverse, however, is not true.  You cannot experience SL by viewing it solely from an financial perspective, and I cannot imagine a SL resident simply as a way of moving L$ from one pocket to another.  If you try, you are missing a lot of what RL economists focus on -- game theory, the motivation behind economic choices, the market forces that affect the flow of assets and services.

One final observation:  Regardless of what a thread may have been as it started, it has a mind of its own.  Once people start adding their own posts, the thread is public, no longer the OP's.  The moderators will terminate a thread if it goes totally off the rails, but they are quite happy to let the community follow its own nose through a topic and any branching topics that may grow out of the conversation. 

[Shelenn Ayres]

39 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Thank you.  If you detected any, they were not in my mind as I wrote here.  

As you have discovered in the many comments here, the economic system in SL is intimately intertwined with land ownership, creative activity, membership status, and a host of other things -- just as it is in RL.  It is not easy to separate economics from the rest of life -- perhaps not even wise.  If there's a common thread to much of what people have said here, it is to that point.  As you correctly noted, you cannot avoid dealing with L$ unless you choose to simply explore, chat with people, and attend events.  Many people do exactly that, of course, but they are outside the scope of your study.  The reverse, however, is not true.  You cannot experience SL by viewing it solely from an financial perspective, and I cannot imagine a SL resident simply as a way of moving L$ from one pocket to another.  If you try, you are missing a lot of what RL economists focus on -- game theory, the motivation behind economic choices, the market forces that affect the flow of assets and services.

One final observation:  Regardless of what a thread may have been as it started, it has a mind of its own.  Once people start adding their own posts, the thread is public, no longer the OP's.  The moderators will terminate a thread if it goes totally off the rails, but they are quite happy to let the community follow its own nose through a topic and any branching topics that may grow out of the conversation. 

Thanks for your thoughts and I do not disagree at all - this applies to all virtual world technology platforms - but many exist just fine without economies. I've been involved in virtual worlds since the inception of the Web3D Consortium long before SL was even a thought in Philip's mind. But the initial questions on this thread were intended to have limited scope associated with the real world costs of living in SL with a premium account hence the reason it was created on a Linden Dollar forum. If there is a way to lock the thread as the creator of the thread, I don't know how to do that or I would just to keep it from going off topic (for those who find it via Googling).

Edited February 2, 2019 by Shelenn Ayres

[bigmoe Whitfield]

On 2/1/2019 at 10:07 PM, Shelenn Ayres said:

Interesting as I was told by several people you cannot sell lindens for dollars without a premium account... i will look into it. But the use case analysis requires the avatar not be homeless. So, if the avatar without a premium account has no home they are homeless until they earn enough to buy land pay tier and build or buy a house and all its furnishings yes?

I do know I sell lindens without a premium account.