Marketplace Search

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

It was early morning when I posted and now I have a bit more time to elaborate on the boolean thing. I'm no math or logic expert but I've discovered what works for me and so the following is more hypothesis by deductive reasoning (and experimental results) than anything else:

The three boolean operations are, from weakest to strongest: OR, AND, NOT. Think of it the same was as the way permissions work on objects

A modifiable, copyable, transferable object in inventory shows no permissions. Put a not modify object *inside* that full permissions object and now the full permissions object adopts the more restrictive perms from the object inside - the FP object is now no-modify while in inventory. Now put a no-copy object inside the no-modify object inside the full perms object and they each adopt the permissions of the object inside it and so on. Yes, anyone in SL longer than a. month or two knows this, I explain for the new folks.

Now, stacking object permissions is a lot like "stacking" MP Boolean searches. When you create your search, think of the first part as the main full perms object:

Red OR Blue OR Yellow - bring red, blue, yellow, red-and-blue, red and yellow, blue and yellow, blue and red, and blue, yellow, red items.

Or is the softest or weakest of the three, AND will override it:

Red AND Blue OR Yellow - Only items that are both blue AND red or anything yellow. This is like putting a full perms object inside a no-copy object.

The other way around: Blue OR Yellow AND Red will yield the desired result: Blue or Yellow and *must have* Red. Now the no-copy is inside the full perms box.

NOT is the strongest because no matter what you put after it - it will block it:

NOT Blue OR Red AND Yellow - will get you the result of Zero plus Zero minus Zero.

BUT, You can mix and match after the main construct:

Blue OR Red AND Yellow NOT Demo OR Gacha. Now I will get any red or blue items that have yellow and not bother with demos or gachas in the process.

I know LOTSAWORDS LOL But, hopefully, gives food for thought how to better wrangle the MP search.

That might be the way Boolean searches are supposed to work, but apparently not in our MP.  I went to the Real Estate category and entered 'Red AND Blue OR Yellow'.  I received back an item with the following keywords and description.  'Red' is in the item name, but not Blue or Yellow, and neither of those colors are mentioned in the Keywords or Details.  I also checked the Features tab, since that is also part of what gets searched, and there is nothing there.  The only thing in the blacked out sections are the region name, the avatar name, and the email address -- none of which contained Blue or Yellow.

 

It isn't the first time that I've not been able to figure out how a particular item manged to get returned from a Search.

 

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Does MP search respect parentheses for order of operations?

I've never felt the need to try them. But there's one way to find out. How about you let us know what you find.   Bahahahaha

[Alyona Su]

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I went to the Real Estate category and entered 'Red AND Blue OR Yellow'.  I received back an item with the following keywords and description.

It worked exactly like I said it would work under that scenario.

The OR needs to be in front of the AND.

I *do* have this question: How do you get the keywords merchants use? Because sometimes I get results that are so far off I can only presume they are padding with B.S. keywords. But don't know how to see them.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

It worked exactly like I said it would work under that scenario.

You said (and I expected)

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Red AND Blue OR Yellow - Only items that are both blue AND red or anything yellow.

i.e.  It either must have BOTH red AND blue or it must have yellow. 

It has Red but not blue and there is no mention of yellow

[Alyona Su]

Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

You said (and I expected)

i.e.  It either must have BOTH red AND blue or it must have yellow. 

It has Red but not blue and there is no mention of yellow

Yes, okay. That was me shooting from the hip. The point I was trying to make is that it "breaks" the boolean logic or A.I. or whatever it's called Hahahaha! 

/me taps her toes, waiting on the 'how do you show merchant keywords' question. ~harrumphs~

[LittleMe Jewell]

16 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

 

/me taps her toes, waiting on the 'how do you show merchant keywords' question. ~harrumphs~

Got this from Whirly in another post about MP keywords:  http://userscripts-mirror.org/scripts/show/87938  - It needs Grease Monkey or something similar to work.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Does MP search respect parentheses for order of operations?

Since I'm having trouble getting any semi-complex Boolean to work correctly, I'm not sure if my parenthesis don't work because it isn't designed to handle parenthesis or because Booleans are just messed up.

 

[Alyona Su]

12 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Got this from Whirly in another post about MP keywords:  http://userscripts-mirror.org/scripts/show/87938  - It needs Grease Monkey or something similar to work.

Ahah! Thanks. Though the security in my browser says "Ummm, no." LOL 

[Elvina Ewing]

On 3/13/2019 at 7:18 AM, Candice LittleBoots said:

 

Would it be too outrageous to suggest that the bulk of poor results from searches (using the search box) are down to unscrupulous vendors using spam words in their descriptions. I often get totally irrelevant returns on searches which are categorically outside the parameters which were input.

while this is most likely true, it is not only the naughty vendors' fault. If hypothetically every merchant used only relevant keywords ever, the Search would still be cluttered with irrelevant results. Why i am so sure of this? Because i was shocked to discover this in my own MP store. I have over 1000 items, and i often have to use search to find something in there quickly. Imagine my shock when i saw the results of the search "xmas" in my own store. The topmost 7 results are... fairy flower dresses!! I most certainly did not used the word "xmas" anywhere in those descriptions or keywords! I even went ahead to check the listings - nope, couldn't find any instance of the word "xmas" anywhere. If this is an example of how the Search works in general, it is no wonder that it returns such poor results for anything.

Edited to add:

/me slaps myself on the head. Of course those were topmost results, because my search preference was set on "newest first". duh. But anyway. The point stands: the "xmas" search returns 171 results, half of which are fairy flower dresses, so should not be there at all.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Elvina Ewing

[Fionalein]

5 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

If this is an example of how the Search works in general, it is no wonder that it returns such poor results for anything.

Hurray for machine learning....

[Snickers Snook]

7 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

The point stands: the "xmas" search returns 171 results, half of which are fairy flower dresses, so should not be there at all.

Probably worth reporting to the JIRA as a bug if it's not already there. But in general, SLM search is pretty bad. And don't get me started on stale, useless listings like $1L system bikinis in 200 color ways from the same vendor.

[Halo Minoptra]

One option I'd like to see in Marketplace search is one that would:

- only display one item per vendor until all vendors have displayed one item, and so on

AND

- you can mark vendors to be excluded from the displayed results

Example: You search for "maitreya AND romper" -- a butt-load of results are found, from a total of 30 vendors (in the first 1000 results, say). The first 30 results you'll see are the first results from each of the thirty vendors. The next 30 will be the second results from each of the thirty vendors. If you hit one that is crap, you can mark that vendor to exclude them from the next batches of results.

 

Just incidentally, when I'm searching for something, I usually branch off once I've seen something nice from one or two or three stores, and I dig into those stores and abandon the original search.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Halo Minoptra

[LittleMe Jewell]

I put in a JIRA a while ago requesting the ability to restrict the Search to just the item Name/Title.  Currently the search uses the item Name, the Description, the Features info, and the Keywords.  There are times when I know part of the Name of the item and I really don't need all those extra results that come from picking up words from those other text areas.  Especially since I already know that the AND/OR qualifiers don't always work right.

Of course, like probably 95% of the Feature Requests that we put it, it will likely sit there until the end of SL without ever actually being implemented, even though it shouldn't be that difficult to do.

Once upon a time, the Knowledgebase info on MP Searches also mentioned that if you put a phrase in double quotes, it would do an 'exact phrase' search.  I put in a JIRA last fall when I found out that doesn't work at all.  Rather than correcting the Search issue, they simply removed any reference to that ability from the Knowledgebase page.

[Snickers Snook]

On 3/15/2019 at 4:21 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Once upon a time, the Knowledgebase info on MP Searches also mentioned that if you put a phrase in double quotes, it would do an 'exact phrase' search.  I put in a JIRA last fall when I found out that doesn't work at all.  Rather than correcting the Search issue, they simply removed any reference to that ability from the Knowledgebase page.

I have been told over and over in SL by various friends and acquaintances that are database experts that all of these requests really aren't that hard. It infuriates me that Linden Lab ignores things that have the potential to improve the customer experience exponentially AND increase their own revenues. Improvements to SLM would enhance sales, not subtract from it.

[LittleMe Jewell]

21 hours ago, Snickers Snook said:

I have been told over and over in SL by various friends and acquaintances that are database experts that all of these requests really aren't that hard. It infuriates me that Linden Lab ignores things that have the potential to improve the customer experience exponentially AND increase their own revenues. Improvements to SLM would enhance sales, not subtract from it.

Modifications to search methods can 'sometimes' make things more complicated and it can be difficult to code for in some cases (not only are super complex Booeans often complicated to code, but they can play hell on database reads).  However, in almost all cases, making something "more restrictive" is usually pretty darn easy.

[Cackle Amore]

Would be nice if there was a way to have like a blacklist of stores and/or keywords that automatically get filtered in search without having to rely on NOT in the search bar.

I'd probably use it to filter out gacha named items and resellers the most personally.

[RohanaRaven Zerbino]

On 1/23/2019 at 8:24 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Using Marketplace Search - Sellers

There are 3 direct fields, and 1 additional option, on a product listing that Sellers have complete and total control over when it comes to optimizing their items for the Marketplace Search functions to try to hit their target buyer.  

• Product Listing Title
• Product Listing Keywords
• Product Listing Features

All 3 of the above fields on a Product Listing are included in Marketplace Search.  This means that words and terms in those 3 fields are, in large part, what the Marketplace uses when a keyword search is done. The Marketplace uses other metrics to include, or exclude, items from search, but these 3 fields are the most important ones on a Product Listing, and the ones that sellers should take the most care in using, when creating a Product Listing. 

The last option that sellers control is Marketplace Category Selection.  If you put your items in the wrong category, you will lose views and therefore, will lose sales.

We often hear that “MP search is messed up”. Are search settings of every marketplace merchant just perfectly made? Probably not, I know I am working very hard lately to correct mistakes I’ve made in order to make my search settings better (huge job considering everything that has to be corrected 🤕).

But we have to admit there are some “phantom” search features that we cannot control at all, and they are on the LL side to deal with them. All I can do is to give practical examples, as it is very hard to me to describe them any other way.

SKU example:

I have “Funny Sleeps” theme in my MP shop, categorized under the same SKU.

Search word “bench” will show the results for park bench, flat bench and ALL funny sleeps, even only those suitable for using on bench-like objects do hold word “bench” in keywords field. It is more than obvious that “sleep at the desk” variations of funny sleeps theme do not belong with the chosen search word. The only explanation I have why are they listed as search result at all is in common SKU.

Unexplainable example:

Search word “flat” (as for flat surfaces sits, lays, whatever) is listing “floating ring” theme as well – again, word “flat” is not used anywhere. Is it possible that search system reads “flat” as “float”?

Another mysterious search behavior:

Search word “slave” in General/Moderate maturity level will list washtub baths (please note that anything with the word “slave” will be automatically rated as an Adult item by the system itself in the process of listing item). No word “slave” anywhere in search related fields. There is possibility that I’ve made change in keywords and maturity rating, and removed term “slave” years ago – does that mean search engine somehow remembers all the words ever written in keywords filed, even it doesn’t show them anymore?

Considering all the examples, I really do not feel that I have so much control over search optimizing, even more, I feel system is pretty much doing whatever system wants to do with the search. As much as merchants are responsible for using wrong and inappropriate keywords in Keywords field, please be aware that system is doing the pretty much the same thing, listing the items that have nothing to word used in search, on its own will. Those two together are cluttering marketplace search, making it difficult for reasonable use.

[Dakota Linden]

Hi RohanaRaven Zerbino

There is actually a really simple answer to the issue with the keyword Bench. 

The Non English pages for your item have 'bench' in the keywords. 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/RNP-Funny-Sleep-7FemaleFull-Perm-Animation/6522793

If you edit the listing for this item and then click on the German Language tab, you can see the Item information including the keywords on the listing. 

If you are creating product listings from a Quick Fill template, each language option has to be update, not just the default/English language option. 

If each language is not updated, then the information on the Product Listing will continue to be from the item in the Quick Fill template that was used to create the new listing. 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

Some creators have decided that they can spam Search via the Features info and probably have less of a chance of getting caught and in trouble.  Most recently by adding any sentence with the word Bellisseria and/or Linden Home in it so that the items - that most definitely are not specific to the new Linden Homes - will come up when residents search for the add-ons that are specifically made for the homes.  Type either of those 2 into Search and it is amazing the things that pop up no.  There are even some that tossed in the sentence 'Perfect for you Bellisseria Linden Home' on the Details page, just to get picked up on those searches.

Edited July 27, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[Cackle Amore]

On 3/13/2019 at 5:12 PM, Alyona Su said:

It worked exactly like I said it would work under that scenario.

The OR needs to be in front of the AND.

I *do* have this question: How do you get the keywords merchants use? Because sometimes I get results that are so far off I can only presume they are padding with B.S. keywords. But don't know how to see them.

Right click on the product page, and pick inspect 

You'll see this pop up

Then just press ctrl+f and a search box will show up in it, type in "keyword" and it'll take ya directly to em.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Digit Gears

[Alyona Su]

21 minutes ago, Digit Gears said:

Right click on the product page, and pick inspect 

You'll see this pop up

Then just press ctrl+f and a search box will show up in it, type in "keyword" and it'll take ya directly to em.

O'wow, thank you!

[arabellajones]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:24 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Using Marketplace Search - Sellers

There are 3 direct fields, and 1 additional option, on a product listing that Sellers have complete and total control over when it comes to optimizing their items for the Marketplace Search functions to try to hit their target buyer.  

• Product Listing Title
• Product Listing Keywords
• Product Listing Features

All 3 of the above fields on a Product Listing are included in Marketplace Search.  This means that words and terms in those 3 fields are, in large part, what the Marketplace uses when a keyword search is done. The Marketplace uses other metrics to include, or exclude, items from search, but these 3 fields are the most important ones on a Product Listing, and the ones that sellers should take the most care in using, when creating a Product Listing. 

 

I tried to set these up on an item today.

It was a semi-historical paint scheme for an aircraft, a small passenger/transport type. Every time I tried to submit the data, something, somewhere, terrified the artificial stupidity system into changing the rating to moderate. Nowhere did the responses point to the offending text, and it seemed to be a word I had used in multiple places: Delete all the text in keywords, and the error report changed to point at another field.

I suppose somebody is going to say that if the system gives any specific information about where some bad word is, it becomes too easy to game. Well, if you're that scared, don't Google for Kenneth Williams singing "The Marrow Song", because I expect that will provoke paroxysms of pearl-clutching all along Battery Street.

 

[Miller Thor]

As we all know, it is more than difficult for us, who belong to the 50+ generation, and also in Second Life we are not afraid to show our age, to find suitable skins or hair, etc. What would you think of a subsection 50+ in the corresponding marketplace sections, or whatever you would like to call it, to set up articles that make it easier to find suitable articles faster? At the moment it often takes days until you accidentally find something that would really fit.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Miller Thor

[Woolfyy]

Hello, Would it be possible for Linden Labs to clean the MP automatically moving the demo items to their correct category ? The MP search ordered by price is polluted by demo items that can't be removed checking the "don't display demo items" ... Thx in advance.

[LittleMe Jewell]

38 minutes ago, Woolfyy said:

Hello, Would it be possible for Linden Labs to clean the MP automatically moving the demo items to their correct category ? The MP search ordered by price is polluted by demo items that can't be removed checking the "don't display demo items" ... Thx in advance.

If you want LL to do something, submit a JIRA:   https://jira.secondlife.com

However, they likely won't do so.  It is too much work to try tracking down all the Demos that are not properly linked to the full version of the item (it is that linking that keeps them from being displayed when you check that 'no demo' box).

Two things you can do: 
- First put "NOT demo" in your search (the NOT needs to be in caps) - you can add more to catch the folks that try to get around this option by using something like "NOT demo AND NOT *demo*".   Yes, it is a total PITA.
- Second, every time you see a Demo item that is not excluded by clicking that 'no demo' box, Flag the item - Select 'Disallowed listing practice' and then 'Demo not linked to full version'.