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Kyrah Abattoir

Why beginners don't learn the basics first?

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I too have learnt a great deal from the people in this forum, even if that's due to my unhealthy obsession.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2019 at 3:38 PM, Fionalein said:

You know that is code for "but failed", right ;) ?

Good point. I suppose it's time to give up then.

Let's face it, the only ones who really can make a difference, are the people at Linden Lab and they're not doing anything at all.

In a recent post at the other forum somebody told how he had once entered an LL held building contest and how Eric Linden had chewed him out for using a 1024 on a house. Back in those days LL was actively working to improve the users' building skills. And they could show what it was all about. Eric was the Conetn Linden Star of course but he was not the ony one. People like Xenon and Alberto - just to mention two - also gave us some great examples to follow. Even some of the non-content Lindens like Ryan and Cory contributed with some excellent work. I think this was one of the key reasons why Second Life became a great place for hobby builders during the first years.

But that was long ago. None of this happened when sculpts and, later, mesh were launched. All LL had to offer were some hidden and poorly written web pages with info full of holes and sometimes downright misleading.

Edited by ChinRey
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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:
6 hours ago, Fionalein said:

You know that is code for "but failed", right ;) ?

Good point. I suppose it's time to give up then.

Rey, you have helped!  More than you know.

I'm sure many people have paid attention to your posts and improved. For myself, I've passed on tips by you to at least 3 people. However, one of them is now no longer my friend due to it  :(  :)    I wonder if I can somehow blame you for that  ;0 

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My big point with low LODs is that they should cover the full area of the model. Large objects should never disappear in the lower LODs. Here's one of my models.

escalatorshighlod.thumb.png.2f86cd8f13a6fc171a4dd4a23eb023df.png

Escalators, highest level of detail. 5644 triangles. 16 LI, including the steps. This is a working escalator; you can ride it. Custom job for a store in New Babbage.

 

escalatorslowlod1.thumb.jpg.6309adef517c0ccba2757b14ae309fcc.jpg

Medium, low, and lowest level of detail. 126 triangles. This is also the physics model. I could have a lower detail model below this, but the escalator is so big that you'd be out of draw distance before it kicked in. You never see the low LOD model in close up like this unless you force the viewer to show it to you.

 

escalatorsmeddist.png.871b9fd6c77f5982de9b014cd36c80a3.png

Escalators at the distance where they switch from the high level of detail model. Still looks like an escalator.

LODs for building-sized objects should be non see through all the way down to lowest LOD. if a building becomes see-through at any distance, it looks awful in a city setting. If your teapot disappears at 50m, fine. But get the big stuff right, please.

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17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Rey, you have helped!  More than you know.

I'm sure many people have paid attention to your posts and improved. For myself, I've passed on tips by you to at least 3 people. However, one of them is now no longer my friend due to it  :(  :)    I wonder if I can somehow blame you for that  ;0 

Nope its causing them trouble even for the good when you change there ways. I only help if they ask for it so they don't get mad. Just keep the laggy mesh they don't care.

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Posted (edited)

Well Kiera, you know what they say about killing the messenger. Especially if that messenger brings a lot of pain and change :(

I have to emphasize though, that most creators I know are open to change -- it was just this one woman who was a problem for me. I had to basically say, in a kind way, "my way or the highway", as I was responsible for the job she was messing up with her faulty LOD mesh. I'm afraid she did not like this limit and so we parted ways. Honestly, I have never heard such excuses as to why a bad LOD should actually be just fine..

Edited by Luna Bliss

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On 3/26/2019 at 1:20 PM, Fionalein said:

You forgot the main reason :

As long as no one cares to compile it into one good howto, it cannot be so important. Sorry, Optimo, but no one with a sane mind is going to hunt down information that has been scattered all over the place... you need a certain unhealthy obsession to do so...

I didn't forget that reason, but this isn't a field where one can claim to have the meal served.

On 3/26/2019 at 1:23 PM, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

The request here, as I understand it, is for some sort of organisation and overview of what's needed. I can see the value in that even if the current population of big guns can't.

I understood that too, Bitsy. I can see the value in that as well, but that's a job that deserves compensation, nobody would do it for free.

On 3/27/2019 at 3:38 PM, Fionalein said:

You know that is code for "but failed", right ;) ?

 

Failing is easy when the counterpart doesn't want to listen and apply the explained knowledge, just keeping their way and grabbing only the bits needed to make it work anyway.

On 3/27/2019 at 6:28 PM, ChinRey said:

Good point. I suppose it's time to give up then.

You did what you could, Rey. Being receptive to something is up to the listener.

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6 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I understood that too, Bitsy. I can see the value in that as well, but that's a job that deserves compensation, nobody would do it for free.

Shrugs. People give away plenty of their time in the forum. If some of that went into a more organised format, it would benefit everyone, aside from people liking to write in forums. An organised format would be a job, answering the same questions over again in the forum is entertainment. Can't compete with that.

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On 3/13/2019 at 3:49 AM, Nextio said:

Blender's documents are usually outdated and explained very poorly.  It also doesn't teach you how to be proficient, which is your original gripe in the first place.  It just teaches the basics on how to use the tool.  It's not going to teach you how to be better.

Not true.

Back to topic. I think ppl just wanna see effects instantly. Learning basics is rly long and borning process. 

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Hi  

I am something of an accomplished animator, and would like to try my hand at making animesh.  I can assume that being proficient in Blender and Avastar is the way to go first.  So, I came across this selection of courses from  Udemy  https://www.udemy.com/topic/blender/

Has anyone here tried them?  or can anyone recommend any on line training in particular? or am I better off sticking with some of the excellent youtube Blender courses like  

the Blender Guru ?    blender Guru   or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4qx4cBQFLA

that are tailored to Second Life?

 

thank you :) 

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On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:32 PM, animats said:

My big point with low LODs is that they should cover the full area of the model. Large objects should never disappear in the lower LODs. Here's one of my models.

escalatorshighlod.thumb.png.2f86cd8f13a6fc171a4dd4a23eb023df.png

Escalators, highest level of detail. 5644 triangles. 16 LI, including the steps. This is a working escalator; you can ride it. Custom job for a store in New Babbage.

 

escalatorslowlod1.thumb.jpg.6309adef517c0ccba2757b14ae309fcc.jpg

Medium, low, and lowest level of detail. 126 triangles. This is also the physics model. I could have a lower detail model below this, but the escalator is so big that you'd be out of draw distance before it kicked in. You never see the low LOD model in close up like this unless you force the viewer to show it to you.

 

escalatorsmeddist.png.871b9fd6c77f5982de9b014cd36c80a3.png

Escalators at the distance where they switch from the high level of detail model. Still looks like an escalator.

LODs for building-sized objects should be non see through all the way down to lowest LOD. if a building becomes see-through at any distance, it looks awful in a city setting. If your teapot disappears at 50m, fine. But get the big stuff right, please.

WOW super cool, the low level one looks like an escalator when it is broken or being serviced LOL 

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On 4/3/2019 at 12:53 PM, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

answering the same questions over again in the forum is entertainment

Especially if we give a different answer each time!

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Posted (edited)

   This is something my husband does. He's an instructional designer and course developer. I do think it would be of benefit for LL to have some kind of centralized, cohesive and quality training people could go through to learn this stuff. But who would create the training? What application(s) would be used? Who would be the SMEs? In what media would such a course compiled and accessed?

   Notwithstanding, there will always be the issue of incentive. People don't do difficult things if they don't have to.

Edited by Ivanova Shostakovich

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17 hours ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   This is something my husband does. He's an instructional designer and course developer. I do think it would be of benefit for LL to have some kind of centralized, cohesive and quality training people could go through to learn this stuff. But who would create the training? What application(s) would be used? Who would be the SMEs? In what media would such a course compiled and accessed?

   Notwithstanding, there will always be the issue of incentive. People don't do difficult things if they don't have to.

The best thing would be for LL to hire someone to make tutorials or ebooks like they did with Strawberry Singh, but someone to just do tutorials.

Honestly, you really don’t need much besides blender and a 2d graphics program to make mesh. But....of course a series could branch out into using other programs.

The problem is whatever someone does is going to be picked apart. There’s a woman that does basic clothes making tutorials from beginning to end. That’s good except there’s a lot to pick apart: she doesn’t use cycles, she uses and old version of blender, she uses an old version of avastar, etc. I wouldn’t call it the best practices but the basic concept is there though.

Having an official LL person for that would go a long way.

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On 3/27/2019 at 5:28 PM, ChinRey said:

Good point. I suppose it's time to give up then.

...

I am always saying to my partner "ChinRey wouldn't like it", when we look at some new item's hideous LI or massive textures.

Only yesterday I checked out the textures on a new boat, there were more than 20, and they were all 1024sq.   "ChinRey wouldn't like it"

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On 1/20/2019 at 1:23 PM, OptimoMaximo said:

- SL should upgrade to the (self proclaimed) "relevant standards" so that we can import anything with no restrictions / what's this BS called optimization

This. I agree. SL is not "optimized" worth a DAMN. LL doesn't care about SL anymore, why else did they make the other crap called Sansar if they've given up hope on SL? Personally i would of helped fund/support SL upgrades/optimize over Sansar funding ANYDAY.

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51 minutes ago, chaosninja7 said:

This. I agree. SL is not "optimized" worth a DAMN. LL doesn't care about SL anymore, why else did they make the other crap called Sansar if they've given up hope on SL? Personally i would of helped fund/support SL upgrades/optimize over Sansar funding ANYDAY.

There is an expression very well known in the programmer world: Garbage in, garbage out.

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1 minute ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

There is an expression very well known in the programmer world: Garbage in, garbage out.

RIGHT. If people don't give time and effort then trash is produced. Time wasted. When i create for SL i make sure to check my stuff and take my time, and if i don't know something then i research.

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Posted (edited)

@chaosninja7 & @Kyrah Abattoir

I don't think that expression quite fits this context at all, lol. (Unless you're referring to some alternative meaning I don't know of. Or you're intentionally re-purposing it.)

As for SL being optimized or not, it's both true and not true. SL is able to run quite well under what should be normal circumstances, but the reality is that even with the import limits that might limit some creativity, people are uploading assets that should never be used for their intended purposes in a real-time environment. This is to say; It's not Second Life itself that's the main problem, it's the users that are using unoptimized assets.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Posted (edited)
On 5/8/2019 at 9:24 AM, anna2358 said:

I am always saying to my partner "ChinRey wouldn't like it", when we look at some new item's hideous LI or massive textures.

I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment. :P

 

7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

This is to say; It's not Second Life itself that's the main problem, it's the users that are using unoptimized assets.

Yes and no. Wagner James Au had an interview with Ebbe Altberg about a month ago and one of the question was about performance. Here's the answer:

Quote

The challenge of improving Second Life performance when user-generated content is often so poorly optimized, it almost becomes (as one Linden vet put it) like a DDOS attack. Ebbe says it's ultimately up to users, not the company, whether they use resource-heavy content. ("Users are going to do what users are going to do.")

This is so right and so wrong at the same time. Yes, it is up to the users to decide but they should be allowed to make informed decisions. How are the average user or hobby builder supposed to know what content causes lag and what doesn't? Even the few professionals often don't realize. One of them once told me that building for SL was pretty much the same as building for any other environment. He was wrong of course. The peculiar LoD system, the physics and - above all - the sheer number of assets we are dealing with here make a huge difference.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment. :P

 

Yes and no. Wagner James Au had an interview with Ebbe Altberg about a month ago and one of the question was about performance. Here's the answer:

This is so right and so wrong at the same time. Yes, it is up to the users to decide but they should be allowed to make informed decisions. How are the average user or hobby builder supposed to know what content causes lag and what doesn't? Even the few professionals often don't realize. One of them once told me that building for SL was pretty much the same as building for any other environment. He was wrong of course. The peculiar LoD system, the physics and - above all - the sheer number of assets we are dealing with here make a huge difference.

Yes I often ask myself “what would ChinRey say?” The answer is not always good. 😿

Re LL contributing to lack of optimization. It seems never at any point to have occurred to them that opening the doors to importation of ready made but  unoptimized models might create a wide range of problems. IMO the resulting messes are all on LL.

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8 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I don't think that expression quite fits this context at all, lol. (Unless you're referring to some alternative meaning I don't know of. Or you're intentionally re-purposing it.)

I thought it was quite appropriate.

If you upload garbage assets, SL will serve garbage assets, it's not magically going to become good assets and there is no automated process in the world that will do that.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, it is up to the users to decide but they should be allowed to make informed decisions. How are the average user or hobby builder supposed to know what content causes lag and what doesn't?

I don't understand what you're attempting to say here. The users are "allowed to make informed decisions." What about the follow-up sentence? What does that imply? Are you saying that users can't make informed decisions? Does that mean the average user shouldn't be allowed to upload mesh into SL?

Edit: Or are you saying LL should be the one to explain what's bad? I would agree with that in principle, but I find it hard to imagine LL has the resources to write out a very long article on what makes a "good model," considering how much of an open platform SL is for different ideas. (As open as the rest of the gaming industry as a whole. More on that below.)

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Even the few professionals often don't realize. One of them once told me that building for SL was pretty much the same as building for any other environment. He was wrong of course. The peculiar LoD system, the physics and - above all - the sheer number of assets we are dealing with here make a huge difference.

I don't know how much of that is paraphrased or what they were comparing SL to, but SL is absolutely identical to a regular game development environment. Making LODs and physics models by hand is a real thing -- even if some of it can be automated like in SL -- and other games can easily have thousands and thousands of assets being rendered at once. There is no distinction between SL and any other 3D game when it comes to asset creation.

Paraphrasing these articles:
https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/ModelingOptimizedCharacters.html
https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/HOWTO-ArtAssetBestPracticeGuide.html
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/3d-primer-for-game-developers-an-overview-of-3d-modeling-in-games--gamedev-5704
https://blog.viromedia.com/https-blog-viromedia-com-asset-pipeline-optimizing-3d-models-ar-vr-arkit-arcore-d0fb61627aaf

"Poly-count is important. Keep your model in tris and quads."
"Too many triangles/polys is bad. Reduce them as much as possible while keeping the silhouette intact."
"Remove faces the user can't see."
"Don't remove too many though."
"Use as few materials as possible."
"Make LOD models by simplifying your model or removing parts of it."
"I search for models under 10K triangles." - Viromedia
"For desktop platforms the ideal range is about 1500-4000 polygons. [1500-8000+ triangles] Reduce if necessary." - Unity
"A model needs to be optimized/rebuilt especially when sourced from high-poly applications. [Marvelous Designer, Zbrush, Poser]" - Unity

All of this is the exact same, general advice LL would write on a wiki page. It offers few if any specifics that are highly subjective. And when everybody is making their own highly subjective models that might fit for their needs, we end up with the situation we are in now where someone's wide-spread "art" plagues SL with bad FPS for everyone, even those who don't want to have anything to do with it.

Edit 2: Some "big title" numbers (keep in mind that these are for highly controlled environments with focused efforts) :
https://gematsu.com/2014/12/final-fantasy-xv-detailed-famitsu
"Each character made up of at max 100,000 polygons. The inner hair alone has about 20,000 polygons, which is five times the previous generation."
https://www.technobuffalo.com/horizon-zero-dawn-eyes-on-preview-post-post-apocalyptic
"Thunderjaw is 80 feet long, 33 feet wide, [...] 550,000 polygons."
https://www.dualshockers.com/the-numbers-of-killzone-shadow-fall-revealed-40000-polygons-per-character-683334-building-blocks-and-more/
"Each character was made of about 40,000 triangles, with four times as many vertices and four times as large textures as in Killzone 3."
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/1b2V2
"Highest LOD is 23K triangles."

3 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Re LL contributing to lack of optimization. It seems never at any point to have occurred to them that opening the doors to importation of ready made but  unoptimized models might create a wide range of problems. IMO the resulting messes are all on LL.

Since there is no way to automatically analyze an object and determine if it's "ready-made" or "unoptimized," the best alternative is to -- again -- close to doors on uploading mesh from the vast majority of people, including most of the biggest body/clothing brands on SL. The only other alternative change that makes sense is to make the restrictions even harder. Fewer vertices, lower resolution textures.. there would be a revolt and it could be ultimately worked around anyway, potentially making things even worse.

2 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I thought it was quite appropriate.

If you upload garbage assets, SL will serve garbage assets, it's not magically going to become good assets and there is no automated process in the world that will do that.

Okay, I actually agree. It just woosh'd over my head at first.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
Added some AAA-title examples as well.

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37 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I don't understand what you're attempting to say here. The users are "allowed to make informed decisions." What about the follow-up sentence? What does that imply? Are you saying that users can't make informed decisions? Does that mean the average user shouldn't be allowed to upload mesh into SL?

I'm saying that nobody can make informed decisions unless they have actually been informed.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I'm saying that nobody can make informed decisions unless they have actually been informed.

I just finished adding some example articles to my post that demonstrate what this "information" would look like.

Never mind that when you actually try to talk to the biggest offenders, they scoff at you with "it's MY ART, I decide what's good, I don't care what you think." when their "art" is literally detrimental to everybody's experience, even if those affected don't realize it. They might even be in denial and say something like "I paid for this, it is high quality", "maybe you should just get a better computer then", or "I don't care."

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
I have a terrible habit of editing my posts 100000 times.
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