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Kyrah Abattoir

Why beginners don't learn the basics first?

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19 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

I’ll just leave this here....

 

73ABF787-1C5B-4A65-B070-F81E73722759.png

Interesting graphic.

I wonder if it would differ for learning, say, technical information vs Philosophy.

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On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 5:14 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

No don't get me wrong I get it, but I have a hard time imagining that a UI change is such a huge deal. Software changes all the time, and we just adapt in the end, it just takes a bit more time for some and a bit less for some others.

I think 2.8 is the biggest change in interface Blender has made (at least in recent times).

I had to go back to 2.79 because I was having such trouble following earlier version tutorials while using 2.8.

From what I see so far though, if you are totally new then 2.8 will be easier to learn as the interface is more intuitive. But, if you're like me, with some knowledge but really still in a more beginner stage, it's a bit too confusing to switch.

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6 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I'd like to point that this graph is for retention rates only.

And It's okay to forget.

Good point...that the graphic is only for retention rates.

Maybe Blender is like some other forms of learning, in that we can't always remember everything, and it's actually more important that we are skilled in looking up what we forgot. I tend to think there's something wrong with me in that I can't remember all those damm Blender shortcuts!

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Good point...that the graphic is only for retention rates.

Maybe Blender is like some other forms of learning, in that we can't always remember everything, and it's actually more important that we are skilled in looking up what we forgot. I tend to think there's something wrong with me in that I can't remember all those damm Blender shortcuts!

Even the best programmers have the book/wiki open at all times.

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2 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Even the best programmers have the book/wiki open at all times. 

Really, well that makes me feel better. I'm not really accustomed to learning highly technical things although I manage to get around in Photoshop a bit, and designed simple websites. I guess I learned the SL building interface well but wouldn't call that highly technical.

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I guess I’m going to have to point out retention is pretty important when you’re trying to teach yourself something, huh?

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1 hour ago, janetosilio said:

I’ll just leave this here....

 

73ABF787-1C5B-4A65-B070-F81E73722759.png

Reminds me of when I was teaching, and would have kids go up to the board to explain something. Sometimes they did not wait for me to invite them but would be so excited they would run up and grab the marker from me. I loved that.

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Yes it is wonderful when witnessing people excited about learning, expanding their mind. A feeling of something catching fire, or a fresh wind suddenly blowing in.

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27 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Reminds me of when I was teaching, and would have kids go up to the board to explain something. Sometimes they did not wait for me to invite them but would be so excited they would run up and grab the marker from me. I loved that.

 

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes it is wonderful when witnessing people excited about learning, expanding their mind. A feeling of something catching fire, or a fresh wind suddenly blowing in.

Watching someone else have an "a-ha!" moment, particularly with your help, can be more pleasurable than having one yourself.

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3 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Even the best programmers have the book/wiki open at all times.

80% of what you need to know is what to ask!

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I just want to add that Second Life has added so much to peoples lives, not just in world but out also. When I started, I could turn on the pc and log in. I started blogging using paint, took pic, cut out shape, done....now I use Photoshop, and use it well, not professional well, but enough to do more than average. I can mesh, cubularly ( I can also make up fancy words) I use spreadsheets for events, create forms etc, bits and pieces of other software, create textures using ps and filterforge etc. Then there is most of you (waves arms around) you mesh, texture, create, release, learn, grow, learn more and so on. Very few came into SL with prior knowledge, those that do often don't use it because they do it rl. Those that do use it, still learn, still grow and probably advance more in rl because of sl. So ....pats everyone on the back, you are all amazing, however you get there, and whatever works for you, because whether doing it right or not right 'yet', it takes a hell of a lot more effort to SL, than to wave a sword around and kill a murlock. 

Edited by Sasy Scarborough
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On 1/30/2019 at 2:34 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Yeah but if a UI change is such a terrifying hurdle, maybe 3D modeling is the least of your problems.

The classic Blender question is "where did feature X go? I saw it in a tutorial but that menu has changed."

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As someone who has recently started looking into making mesh and hasn't touched anything yet, just been reading the forums and websites......

The problem lies with the sheer amount of tutorials out there. Even days after I am no closer to finding a solid starting point nevermind have somewhat of a comprehensive list of things I need to learn, things that apply to SL specifically and things I shouldn't be doing.

The information is all there but it's fractioned and scattered all over the place and how should I, as a complete beginner know what is good info and what is not.
How should I know what a good learning flow would be when nothing is intuitive?

 

If anyone at all would ever take the time to make a comprehensive list of steps to take in order to make good mesh for SL that could be handed out to all those interested in learning you'd not only be a true gem but you would also ensure better mesh within SL.

 

With that said, I'd be the first taker of that list, or any list that would get me started making GOOD mesh in SL from the very start!

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9 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

as a complete beginner know what is good info and what is not.

That's why it's good to learn from people who are actually in SL.

I recommend Blender Benders in SL -- they meet weekly and the teacher plays videos each week that we can watch on our own too, and then we can ask questions if we get stumped. Each class builds on the previous one, so all you have to do is your homework for each class and before you know it you'll be pretty skilled.

Each class goes on for more than a year I think. You are wanting this at just the right time, as the newest "green group" is beginning now (you can choose from 3 times each week). Two of these already met this week, but the 3rd green group starts on Sunday.

I know Builder's Brewery inworld teaches classes too, and I've heard some are great, but I can't personally vouch for any since I never took one.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's why it's good to learn from people who are actually in SL.

I recommend Blender Benders in SL -- they meet weekly and the teacher plays videos each week that we can watch on our own too, and then we can ask questions if we get stumped. Each class builds on the previous one, so all you have to do is your homework for each class and before you know it you'll be pretty skilled.

Each class goes on for more than a year I think. You are wanting this at just the right time, as the newest "green group" is beginning now (you can choose from 3 times each week). Two of these already met this week, but the 3rd green group starts on Sunday.

I know Builder's Brewery inworld teaches classes too, and I've heard some are great, but I can't personally vouch for any since I never took one.

Thank you Luna, I am in that group and I have missed that second first lesson by an hour, perhaps I will be able to join it on sunday.

What I do not like about these classes though is the fact that you have to be commited to them and we all know RL happens.....a lot. So what if I miss out on a class because I can't make it for a week? What if I miss out on more than one class? I'd be lost and left behind.

That is why I think it would be much more important to have a list of tutorials to go through that are listed in a comprehensive way so everyone can go through them and learn it at their own time without having to worry about missing classes due to work/sickness/whathaveyou.

Edit: It wouldn't even have to link to up to date tutorials and be constantly updated. If a step by step guide is jotted down it would be so much easier to google those steps and find up to date tutorials for them. It'd be like a To-Do list really.

Because right now all that is on my To-Do list is 'Figure out the to-do list' and I have been on this for days, asked several people, and it feels like the bits and pieces I have aren't enough and I wouldn't know into which order to put them and just meeeeeeh!

Edited by Syn Anatine
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2 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

What I do not like about these classes though is the fact that you have to be commited to them and we all know RL happens.....a lot. So what if I miss out on a class because I can't make it for a week? What if I miss out on more than one class? I'd be lost and left behind.

That is why I think it would be much more important to have a list of tutorials to go through that are listed in a comprehensive way so everyone can go through them and learn it at their own time without having to worry about missing classes due to work/sickness/whathaveyou.

Personally I liked the pressure of having homework. I'd think "oh wow...class is coming up...I better get my homework done"! lol

I do understand though, as when I first took the class a lot of RL stuff came up and I got so behind that I just gave up. But, I began again during the next round of classes.

The teacher is really good about helping you make up a missed lesson though, even if you miss 2 in a row. You do have to attend the next class however to get your previous 2 missed lessons.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Personally I liked the pressure of having homework. I'd think "oh wow...class is coming up...I better get my homework done"! lol

I do understand though, as when I first took the class a lot of RL stuff came up and I got so behind that I just gave up. But, I began again during the next round of classes.

The teacher is really good about helping you make up a missed lesson though, even if you miss 2 in a row. You do have to attend the next class however to get your previous 2 missed lessons.

You know, if only I had the topic of each class in order they'd be taught in I'd be SET to start. That is exactly what I am looking for. A comprehensive list of things to learn to in the end be able to create good mesh within SL.

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18 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

You know, if only I had the topic of each class in order they'd be taught in I'd be SET to start. That is exactly what I am looking for. A comprehensive list of things to learn to in the end be able to create good mesh within SL.

Once you get past a rudimentary level I'm not sure there's a set way one should progress. I think this is because Blender is so complex, there are many ways to do one task, and every creator/teacher has a different focus.
Once you get past a certain basic ability it branches out in so many directions that as far as I can see it would be at the teachers discretion as to how they would focus the learning or compose the tutorials.

So, I'm not sure there could ever be a "once and for all sequential steps to learn Blender", for all the above reasons and also because of the fact Blender and all 3D software keeps updating...

I needed a path to follow, even if it was another's path. The branching out to find my own way will come later...and already has to a degree. I would never have learned Blender from a Wiki or manual.

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15 hours ago, janetosilio said:

I guess I’m going to have to point out retention is pretty important when you’re trying to teach yourself something, huh?

Yes, but retention is not skill.  Skill involves discretionary use of retained knowledge.  Which is probably why the 'Teach someone else' line is the 90%...

This is kinda encouraging me to think if I should not write the manual I am missing, and as I learn more things add to it.  This is a very encouraging discussion.

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12 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

80% of what you need to know is what to ask!

the other 30%(sic) is 'who to ask'  (or what book to open).

Edit:

2nd thought.  I have a Certificate from Google as an Advanced Searcher.  The course was all about how to ask the right question (unfortunately it didn't cover avoiding the paid-for answers).  All of our wonderful technology for learning depends critically on how to ask.  Just as you say, Wulfie.

Edited by anna2358
2nd thought.

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16 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's why it's good to learn from people who are actually in SL.

I recommend Blender Benders in SL -- they meet weekly and the teacher plays videos each week that we can watch on our own too, and then we can ask questions if we get stumped. Each class builds on the previous one, so all you have to do is your homework for each class and before you know it you'll be pretty skilled.

Each class goes on for more than a year I think. You are wanting this at just the right time, as the newest "green group" is beginning now (you can choose from 3 times each week). Two of these already met this week, but the 3rd green group starts on Sunday.

I know Builder's Brewery inworld teaches classes too, and I've heard some are great, but I can't personally vouch for any since I never took one.

Blender Benders seem to be pretty good, I haven't joined their classes so i'm only seeing things with an outsider's eye.

 

My only recommendation is to take it like you would any class, understand that no matter how good, no teacher is perfect and sometimes they can be wrong.

Thanks to the internet we aren't as constrained as we used to be, explore what you can find around the topics brought in class, if you find something that seem to contradict the teacher or that seem to be missing from the class, don't keep it for yourself, speak up and ask questions about it, maybe you will learn something, maybe they will learn something. It's a win win situation.

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Just keep practising, folks (and teaching others, if you can).

Also, I think there's a strong correlation between steepness of the learning curve on the one hand, and productivity/satisfaction on the other. In simple wording: the harder it is to learn something, the bigger the reward.

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On 1/31/2019 at 2:10 PM, Syn Anatine said:

As someone who has recently started looking into making mesh and hasn't touched anything yet, just been reading the forums and websites......

The problem lies with the sheer amount of tutorials out there. Even days after I am no closer to finding a solid starting point nevermind have somewhat of a comprehensive list of things I need to learn, things that apply to SL specifically and things I shouldn't be doing.

The information is all there but it's fractioned and scattered all over the place and how should I, as a complete beginner know what is good info and what is not.
How should I know what a good learning flow would be when nothing is intuitive?

 

If anyone at all would ever take the time to make a comprehensive list of steps to take in order to make good mesh for SL that could be handed out to all those interested in learning you'd not only be a true gem but you would also ensure better mesh within SL.

 

With that said, I'd be the first taker of that list, or any list that would get me started making GOOD mesh in SL from the very start!

This!!! 
I've got a bookmarks folder with probably hundreds of different Blender and Avastar tutorials saved as well as dozens of Youtube videos on the same topic but like you say, they are all fractured and there is no one singular place to go to learn how to make a good usable mesh that won't cause problems later.
Even the Avastar site and knowledge base, not everything we need to know is there and often the tutorials are out of date, referring to much older versions of a program.

I had bought ZbrushCore over a year ago for if I wanted to dive in and someday sculpt more elaborate (but still properly topo'ed) meshes, but there's so little documentation and instruction for that particular program that it's tempting to give up on the whole thing.
Even questions in the Pixelogic forum will go unanswered and supposedly it's moderated by the experts.

Remember when software used to include a complete manual instructing us how to use every tool in it, thick as a bible? LOL That doesn't seem to exist anymore. I can't even keep track of the number of forums I've joined trying to find answers to what should be basic questions and a good portion of my questions are never answered.

I just want to update all my wings to mesh as that is what SL users prefer now, and ripped off meshes of my designs make it into the Marketplace or Gachas well before I even have one mesh figured out. It's really easy to get discouraged. I would so happily pay for beginning-to-end tutorials of how to make good mesh for SL, hell I'd even pay for just a list of where to go to find them in the order they would need to be learned but I haven't even gotten responses from people I've asked for quotes from.
It's exhausting.

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1 hour ago, Violaine Villota said:

This!!! 
I've got a bookmarks folder with probably hundreds of different Blender and Avastar tutorials saved as well as dozens of Youtube videos on the same topic but like you say, they are all fractured and there is no one singular place to go to learn how to make a good usable mesh that won't cause problems later.
Even the Avastar site and knowledge base, not everything we need to know is there and often the tutorials are out of date, referring to much older versions of a program.

I had bought ZbrushCore over a year ago for if I wanted to dive in and someday sculpt more elaborate (but still properly topo'ed) meshes, but there's so little documentation and instruction for that particular program that it's tempting to give up on the whole thing.
Even questions in the Pixelogic forum will go unanswered and supposedly it's moderated by the experts.

Remember when software used to include a complete manual instructing us how to use every tool in it, thick as a bible? LOL That doesn't seem to exist anymore. I can't even keep track of the number of forums I've joined trying to find answers to what should be basic questions and a good portion of my questions are never answered.

I just want to update all my wings to mesh as that is what SL users prefer now, and ripped off meshes of my designs make it into the Marketplace or Gachas well before I even have one mesh figured out. It's really easy to get discouraged. I would so happily pay for beginning-to-end tutorials of how to make good mesh for SL, hell I'd even pay for just a list of where to go to find them in the order they would need to be learned but I haven't even gotten responses from people I've asked for quotes from.
It's exhausting.

Hello,

A book, a true book with paper, nothing replaces a true book, or at least a book on PDF file and designed to be printed easily.

I purchased this book : Blender Foundations: The Essential Guide to Learning Blender 2.6 , in the past. It is outdated, but maybe there are new books, all I learned about Blender came from this book mainly. I don't use Blender actually, as I develop other 3D tools and softwares, but with a good book and some patience I can say Blender is a true good software.

Best Regards, Motoko Oanomochi.

 

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi
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