Jump to content
Kyrah Abattoir

Why beginners don't learn the basics first?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

A couple of people on this thread have decided to take one sentence out of my original post and use it to accuse me of belittling people. Context matters and some people are unable or unwilling to read for context. Also, apparently, I didn't clearly express the proper level of gratitude for those who have gone "above and beyond what could possibly be expected" of them. 

Here's the thing. I don't follow the history of every single user on this forum. I seldom post anything on it. So, I do not know how much or how little or what forms of assistance people have provided. 

If some of the people on this thread were offended that I didn't know about or give them proper credit for their video-based instruction, then, by all means, provide some links where I can view or at least purchase your courses/videos. 

One thing's been proven to me. Don't post on these forums especially if you disagree with the central thesis of an original post. And, if people want to continue attacking me, I give up. You're right; I'm wrong. We'll just go with the original post. Beginners are lazy and want results without putting in the work. Does that work?

As one of the two people who responded to you, don't worry, I'm not offended! I was only trying to clarify what could've been perceived as belittling. You certainly shouldn't make it sound like you are being attacked, because nobody has even said anything negative about you. The worst that has been said to you is "you are belittling others," which is hardly an attack, a misunderstanding at most.

Text is a mask that you shape with the words you use. Nobody can hear your tone, so a little introspection goes a long way when you receive a response you don't think is warranted. Let me illustrate (not accuse) from your first post:

  • "I often wonder why that's the case and suspect it comes down to one thing: money."
    • This implies that the people with the knowledge are unwilling to share it only because they are greedy.
  • "I'm just annoyed that so many of the "experts" on threads like this one have made little to no effort to do the same."
    • This implies that these ""experts"" you are referring to are either self-proclaimed (which in itself is derogatory) or are in fact just armchair experts, not with legitimate knowledge.
    • It also implies that you don't want and are annoyed by the advice given by these people, because it's not the kind you want.
  • "If it's because  you want to get paid, then create a course for Udemy."
    • This doubles down on your assumption of pure greed, even if you say "We'll pay you!" When in reality there could be a lot of other reasons why these people aren't making videos or even tutorials at all.

These words can shape the mood/tone of your whole post from anything positive to talking down on others and entitlement for not meeting your personal requirements. If none of these things are what you meant, then it can be just a matter of moving on. Whatever the case is, nobody has attacked you. It's just a case of one person's response because they aren't mind-readers.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair, I use this method of jumping in on the deep end and learning from my mistakes. It`s not an efficient way of doing things but I find the most fun and challenging. Some youtubers are quite boring in their delivery of the lesson that I have often fell asleep during the video or just switched it off because it becomes unbearable to listen to. Learning by doing is my preferred way of learning mistakes and all!. 

PS I am simply just answering the question "Why beginners don`t learn the basics first"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RetroGamer78 said:

To be fair, I use this method of jumping in on the deep end and learning from my mistakes. It`s not an efficient way of doing things but I find the most fun and challenging. Some youtubers are quite boring in their delivery of the lesson that I have often fell asleep during the video or just switched it off because it becomes unbearable to listen to. Learning by doing is my preferred way of learning mistakes and all!. 

PS I am simply just answering the question "Why beginners don`t learn the basics first"

That's also because video is a really horrible format for self learning. It's just really easy to make and there is a horde of people who are convinced that it's the only way they will ever learn something.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Once wanted to learn to build myself, Installed blender and was overwhelmed by the options and buttons. I had no prior knowledge of building or graphics but wanted to give it a try and see how it turns out to be. It was around a year back when I was still just few months old and IDK why I didn't took help from any builder back then resulting in getting bored, frustrated and ultimately giving up. I wish I had asked for guidance from some experienced builder back then. Now I will again like to give it a try but my time is limited and can spare 1 to 2 hours per days only. if I do start again I will make sure I take proper guidance and help.

I myself like to start from basics and build strong fundamental and build slowly on that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

That's also because video is a really horrible format for self learning. It's just really easy to make and there is a horde of people who are convinced that it's the only way they will ever learn something.

I've found videos easier to learn from when the keystrokes are recorded and displayed. The teacher doesn't need to spell out every hotkey combination and if it's from a menu I can see how to access that menu straightaway. With written tutorials, there was always a time, several usually, when I'd have to stop to look up one of the more basic elements I hadn't yet learned or couldn't recall exactly enough. Maybe that's easy for you or you didn't have to, but it would throw me off track for the one I was working on and hampered my progress.

Also, video tutorials are often project orientated and some of us do better with that. Amongst the disorganised, person talking to himself while he putters along videos, there are many which are well-organised, complete and easy to follow. Finding a series and teacher whose approach works for me (BornCG) helped immensely.

Now that I'm further along, looking up specific bits in written form will often suffice. In theory that's quicker. In practice though, it usually takes me a few tries to figure out the right wording for the search and I end up spending at least as much time in the search as I would watching through part of a good video.

Given the different ways people have of learning (like the visual, audio, kinesthetic model), any one way just isn't going to suit everyone. Please don't disparage those of us who need different approaches than yours. Our needs and ways of doing things are just as legitimate as yours.

Edited by Bitsy Buccaneer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The problem of videos is that they are a non-interactive substitute to an actual teacher, but it only looks like an actual class, and has none of the advantages.

As for preferential learning, yeah I know that it's a thing, you can still learn outside of your prefered learning medium, just not as easily.

 

But back to my issue with videos, it's typically a format that is easy on the teacher and hard on the student because it puts very little constraint on the teacher. That doesn't mean there isn't excellent videos out there.

A video can be great if it is well planned, but 90% of what you find on youtube is some guy trying to talk to a camera about a subject, rather than someone giving a class.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

The problem of videos is that they are a non-interactive substitute to an actual teacher, but it only looks like an actual class, and has none of the advantages.

And for those of us who don't have access to a live teacher for one reason or another, and certainly not one we can ring up at a moment's notice, or can't manage a full class because of health, work, family or other reasons?

In person teaching has its place. It's a fantastic resource when it's available. Well organised and presented videos have their place, including the capacity to repeat sections and revisit it whenever you want. Written forms have their place too.

Isn't it great we have so many different forms to draw on? Then each person can seek out what's going to be most useful for their individual and particular needs in that moment. There is no need to say things like "video is a really horrible format for self learning" or make snide comments about those of us for whom they've proven to be the most suitable format available.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

And for those of us who don't have access to a live teacher for one reason or another, and certainly not one we can ring up at a moment's notice, or can't manage a full class because of health, work, family or other reasons?

I would never like a live teacher because I would feel too much pressure, and the advantage of a video is that it can't hear me cussing   :)       And Blender, if anything, is a great teacher of cussing if one did not already have that attribute.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

There is no need to say things like "video is a really horrible format for self learning" or make snide comments about those of us for whom they've proven to be the most suitable format available.

In fairness, I think you can say "this format is objectively not very good" and yet not denigrate those who prefer it.

Lectures are a disastrous format for learning, and yet universities put thousands on each year. Highlighting books is a terrible way to learn (rather than just looking like you're learning), but it's my first choice, because it forces me to actually read the text and pick out the key parts.

I'm not keen on videos because they're invariably badly subtitled, if subtitled at all. Someone whose hearing is better than their eyesight may well have the opposite opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Ana Stubbs said:

Lectures are a disastrous format for learning, and yet universities put thousands on each year.

If that is your experience , maybe you should have picked a better university.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Isn't it great we have so many different forms to draw on? Then each person can seek out what's going to be most useful for their individual and particular needs in that moment. There is no need to say things like "video is a really horrible format for self learning" or make snide comments about those of us for whom they've proven to be the most suitable format available.

Look I'm sorry okay, I do not intent on making it sound like i'm looking down on people who use videos. There are great videos out there, but everytime I'm looking for a specific information, I'm usually forced to sit through a 20 minutes video of some guy "stumbling" through his explanation and it drives me crazy when that information could have been given to me straight away from a searchable document.

The problem isn't really that videos exist, it's that some informations are only transmitted with videos. A lot of informations about avastar is like that for instance, you either sit through it and hope that the answer you are looking for is covered in there, or... well you just figure it out by yourself.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Look I'm sorry okay, I do not intent on making it sound like i'm looking down on people who use videos. There are great videos out there, but everytime I'm looking for a specific information, I'm usually forced to sit through a 20 minutes video of some guy "stumbling" through his explanation and it drives me crazy when that information could have been given to me straight away from a searchable document.

The problem isn't really that videos exist, it's that some informations are only transmitted with videos. A lot of informations about avastar is like that for instance, you either sit through it and hope that the answer you are looking for is covered in there, or... well you just figure it out by yourself.

Can you see how different this is from what you wrote earlier?

On 7/21/2019 at 2:15 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

That's also because video is a really horrible format for self learning. It's just really easy to make and there is a horde of people who are convinced that it's the only way they will ever learn something.

Really horrible format. Horde of people who are convinced.

If you didn't mean to make it sound like you're looking down on use, why choose those words? There are other ways to make the point which are more readily understandable, like you'd prefer it if there were more searchable documents and that you find videos too time-consuming and frustrating. If it's related to your preferences and your experiences, it comes across as just that and much less judgemental. When it's phrased more clearly, new approaches become easier to see, like pairing a written summary of steps with a video. Would it be worth asking some of the better Avastar video makers to do that? Or maybe someone else who wants to help but doesn't have the depth of knowledge to write a tutorial from scratch could offer?

I agree that the whole system could use some improvement. Shall we try to brainstorm on how?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

If you didn't mean to make it sound like you're looking down on use, why choose those words?

Because of the amount of people who simply won't bother learning something if their favourite format is not available. I don't like videos but i'll torture myself regardless if that's all I can get my hands on, because I want to learn, and yeah it might take me longer, and yeah it will be frustrating, but I'll get there regardless, as long as it is well made, whether i like the format or not doesn't matter.

You can't really use tactile learning for speech training, or audio learning for blacksmithing.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Because of the amount of people who simply won't bother learning something if their favourite format is not available. I don't like videos but i'll torture myself regardless if that's all I can get my hands on, because I want to learn, and yeah it might take me longer, and yeah it will be frustrating, but I'll get there regardless, as long as it is well made, whether i like the format or not doesn't matter.

You can't really use tactile learning for speech training, or audio learning for blacksmithing.

I don't know about that. I think it's more that the complainers are the vocal ones and the rest of us get on with it more quietly or just ask questions.

As for your examples, those of us with a strong kinesthetic approach to learning would surprise you with what we can do and how we go about it. :) There's always a subtle tactile element to my public speaking and overt ones in my preparation and most definitely in my learning how to do it.

Audio learning as the sole way of acquiring manual skills is a red herring. But some will learn better with a verbal description to accompany their physical efforts and some will learn better from reading first or seeing it done. You always have to do it yourself in the end though.

But all I'm really asking is to just be a bit more careful with how you word things. Given how difficult many people are inclined to make things for themselves, why throw even more obstacles in their way like demeaning a format you find problematic? It might be part of the solution for someone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

blender is a piece of ***** it's user interface is too complicated there's got to be a simpler way to make *****ing mesh objects out there it doesn't cost a fortune or free and crappy

Edited by MaxSilverDragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MaxSilverDragon said:

blender is a piece of ***** it's user interface is too complicated there's got to be a simpler way to make *****ing mesh objects out there it doesn't cost a fortune or free and crappy

I read this thing a long time ago and i think it sums up the situation.

There is 3 options CHEAP, GOOD & FAST, but you can only pick two:

  • if it's CHEAP and GOOD it won't be FAST.
  • if it's CHEAP and FAST it won't be GOOD.
  • if it's FAST and GOOD it won't be FREE.

Blender's interface is something... special, I wouldn't say it's bad, it's very efficient once you understand it and is infinitely customizeable to your workflow. But it also takes a lot of time to learn because it is designed for using, and not so much for (intuitive) learning unfortunately.

That tend to happen with Open Source software because OSS developpers essentially create the software to suit their own needs. Non-contributing user requirements tend to end up at a low priority since there is effectively no customers to please.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, MaxSilverDragon said:

blender is a piece of ***** it's user interface is too complicated there's got to be a simpler way to make *****ing mesh objects out there it doesn't cost a fortune or free and crappy

Hmmm, I may be wrong butI get the impression you're not too happy about Blender. :P

I think we need a bit of historic perspective here. Blender was made as a special tool for creating animated videos, the kind where you shoot a frame every few minutes. And it wasn't intended as a public software, it was a program made by a Dutch (or was it Belgian?) animation studio for their own use. When the studio went bankrupt, the owner kindly decided to release the software as open source (after raising a considerable amount of crowd funding money). Since then it's been through a lot of updates but the focus is still on its original purpose and like so many other open source programs the user interface has grown rather messy with different people boltinh on different functions wherever they could find space for it. It's not really fair to expect Blender to do well a job it was never meant to do. Let's jsut be grateful that it can do it at all.

Unfortunately none of the other 3D modelling programs were made for game assets creation either. They were all made for CAD (computer assisted design) or some other more common 3D modelling purpose.

The bottom line is that Blender, Maya and Zbrush aren't the most suitable modelling programs for Second Life - they are the least unsuitable ones.

Edited by ChinRey
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can live with Blender. It's been around for over 15 years, and it used to have the user interface from hell. By 2.79, it had achieved the user interface from heck. Haven't tried 2.8 yet, but that's supposed to be better.

My main complaint about SL content creation in Blender is the LOD system. The whole LOD thing needs to be automated, to the degree that it is in Sansar and for prims.

Almost nobody really makes hand-built low-LOD models. Yes. Chin Rey does it. I've done it, and it's too much work.

Open Firestorm. Open the lower right Firestorm menu for Quick Preferences. Set LOD factor to 0. Now you see the lowest LOD model of everything. Go to some shopping area. Look around.

badboats.thumb.jpg.11dfa40dd87dbae8f77325fbbde5765c.jpgThese are good boats with bad LODs. Low-detail, OK. See-through, not OK. Come on, at least give us a textured box for the hull.

See through buildings reduced down to a few random triangles. Concrete ground missing. Aargh. Again, a textured box would be OK.

goodboats.thumb.jpg.1115b6efe288d3431999fb1f7a8d4082.jpg

Same scene,  normal LOD settings.

I don't blame creators for this. I blame LL's tool builders. Fix the tools once, and everybody gets it right. Beats beating on creators.

If you could just create in Blender, and what you did there went in-world with no fuss, creators would have a much easier time.

In the years that SL has had a really crappy LOD system, everybody else in gaming has made progress. There are solutions for this. And LL knows it, because they bought one of them for Sansar.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MaxSilverDragon said:

blender is a piece of ***** it's user interface is too complicated there's got to be a simpler way to make *****ing mesh objects out there it doesn't cost a fortune or free and crappy

 

https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/353364/ubisoft-joins-blender-development-fund-to-support-open-source-animation

Quote :

 " by Ubisoft / July 22, 2019 / 5 minute read

Ubisoft Animation Studio (UAS), the in-house studio of Ubisoft Film & Television dedicated to creating animated films and series, will soon adopt the open-source animation software Blender as its main digital content creation (DCC) tool.

......................................................... "

Edited by Aquila Kytori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Aquila Kytori said:

 

https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/353364/ubisoft-joins-blender-development-fund-to-support-open-source-animation

Quote :

 " by Ubisoft / July 22, 2019 / 5 minute read

Ubisoft Animation Studio (UAS), the in-house studio of Ubisoft Film & Television dedicated to creating animated films and series, will soon adopt the open-source animation software Blender as its main digital content creation (DCC) tool.

......................................................... "

Is there a video of that?  I don't have time to read it....

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the problem right now there is no simple mesh making tools out there

blender has too much features so it's hard to navigate through it to get to the ones you want Maya cost $3,000 3D modeling needs a free program to use or it's easy to pick up we basically need a Unity of 3D modeling make 3D modeling even possible for most people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

That tend to happen with Open Source software because OSS developpers essentially create the software to suit their own needs. Non-contributing user requirements tend to end up at a low priority since there is effectively no customers to please.

That's not a very accurate summary of Open Source at all. I suggest you look into it.

Open-source devs have customers -- everybody using that software. People don't (usually) create complex programs and just let it loose to never make money off it. They often get paid to fix problems or teach others to use it, among many other ways. Even Blender does this. They have a subscription service called Blender Cloud (which is making at least $46k/mo), which includes training, movies made with Blender, and a production pipeline.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...