Whats the best sl viewer?

[Conifer Dada]

I use the standard SL viewer and have done for ages.  Now I have a good computer and internet connection it works well and hardly ever crashes.  I have Singularity to log in to my OpenSim standalone or to OSGrid occasionally but I don't normally use it for SL.  I've had Firestorm in the past and it was useful for when the LL viewer was going through a bad patch.  But Firestorm had its 'bad patches' too and now that the LL viewer works OK for me I don't see any reason to change.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Conifer Dada

[Coby Foden]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

If you prefer [unnamed viewer] or, as in my case, [unnamed viewer] or another then that's great. That doesn't mean the others are "bad" in any way.  There is no reason to feel a need to "legitimize" your choice to anyone other than yourself.

I replaced the viewer names above with [unnamed viewer].

I have just shown some comparisons why I prefer some [unnamed viewer] over some other [unnamed viewer]. That's all.
There is no need for me to "defend" or "legitimate" any viewer. It's just that some viewer works for me better than some other viewer. 🙂
There are some viewers which suit me well and some others which don't. In that respect all viewers are not equally *great* viewers.

P.S.
Maybe we shouldn't mention the names of the viewers at all? Just talk about features of [unnamed] viewers?
 

Edited January 10, 2019 by Coby Foden

[Alyona Su]

20 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

I have just shown some comparisons why I prefer some [unnamed viewer] over some other [unnamed viewer]. That's all.

Certainly and that's fair.

Though my question isn't why you *do* prefer a particular viewer, it's why do you *bash* on another viewer (always the Official viewer from what I've seen)? In this thread there are many responses to the OP, some more useful and on-topic than others, and (as always seems to be the case in these subjects) there are those who, either directly or ambiguously through innuendo, bash on the Official viewer.

So, I am asking the question why? What exactly is it about the Official viewer that makes it *bad* or so *horrible* to you? So far, I've not seen a single justifiable response. LOL And to be clear: *I* believe all viewers are excellent viewers; they all do an excellent job of displaying and allowing us to interact with the in-world content, some differently than others, but in the end: all doing so.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Ichi Rexen]

17 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Certainly and that's fair.

Though my question isn't why you *do* prefer a particular viewer, it's why do you *bash* on another viewer (always the Official viewer from what I've seen)? In this thread there are many responses to the OP, some more useful and on-topic than others, and (as always seems to be the case in these subjects) there are those who, either directly or ambiguously through innuendo, bash on the Official viewer.

So, I am asking the question why? What exactly is it about the Official viewer that makes it *bad* or so *horrible* to you? So far, I've not seen a single justifiable response. LOL And to be clear: *I* believe all viewers are excellent viewers; they all do an excellent job of displaying and allowing us to interact with the in-world content, some differently than others, but in the end: all doing so.

Just because you don't feel like it's justified it doesn't mean that's the case. When it comes to viewers it's all about personal preference. My preferences are Firestorm or as of late The Cool Viewer. I don't hate the official viewer per say as it's a very stable viewer but it's not one I'm the most fond of particularly because...

1. I find it very limiting in terms of features offered compared to third party alternatives and options right in front of you beat messing around with the XML files for the average user.

2. I can't stand how IM, Group and Local chat is handled with all the pop in and pop out windows. Much prefer how Firestorm and TCV handle it.

3. It's not THE most intuitive viewer even if it is simplified compared to others. You may think it is but let's compare Firestorm vs Official chat. Want a local chat bar in Firestorm? It's already there waiting. Want one in the Official viewer?. Open chat, pop out local chat, click button to minimise tip part of local chat, move local chat box down to bottom left, close down main chat window, chat box vanishes (-_-), hit enter to bring chat box back and finally it stays put. THAT is not intuitive.

4. Chat (see 3), Inventory, whatever else. To do something seems to involve more work than is needed. Overall the viewer feels like a chore.

now, for me those are justified reasons to not use it. For you, you might feel different. It's personal preference and nothing more.

[Alyona Su]

16 minutes ago, Ichi Rexen said:

Just because you don't feel like it's justified it doesn't mean that's the case. When it comes to viewers it's all about personal preference. My preferences are Firestorm or as of late The Cool Viewer. I don't hate the official viewer per say as it's a very stable viewer but it's not one I'm the most fond of particularly because...

1. I find it very limiting in terms of features offered compared to third party alternatives and options right in front of you beat messing around with the XML files for the average user.

2. I can't stand how IM, Group and Local chat is handled with all the pop in and pop out windows. Much prefer how Firestorm and TCV handle it.

3. It's not THE most intuitive viewer even if it is simplified compared to others. You may think it is but let's compare Firestorm vs Official chat. Want a local chat bar in Firestorm? It's already there waiting. Want one in the Official viewer?. Open chat, pop out local chat, click button to minimise tip part of local chat, move local chat box down to bottom left, close down main chat window, chat box vanishes (-_-), hit enter to bring chat box back and finally it stays put. THAT is not intuitive.

4. Chat (see 3), Inventory, whatever else. To do something seems to involve more work than is needed. Overall the viewer feels like a chore.

now, for me those are justified reasons to not use it. For you, you might feel different. It's personal preference and nothing more.

/me sighs. My question is not "what is your justification for not using X?". My question is "Why do you bash X?" - you are missing the point entirely. You and I are on the same side here: Glass half-empty or half-full doesn't matter: it's the same glass. But some would say "Half-empty is CRAP and that's why I prefer half FULL!!!" Okay, fine, but why if Half-Empty "crap". Just because Half-Full is superior to half-empty doesn't make half-empty "crap".

This is my point and the question at hand. So when I say your answers don't jive, I am referring to your answers as to why Official viewer is "crap" not why it is inferior, and I don't think you, Ichi, have actually "bashed" the official viewer. My question is for those who have (you all know who you are, I have names! But not allowed to "name and shame" here LOL).

[Coby Foden]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Certainly and that's fair.

Though my question isn't why you *do* prefer a particular viewer, it's why do you *bash* on another viewer (always the Official viewer from what I've seen)? In this thread there are many responses to the OP, some more useful and on-topic than others, and (as always seems to be the case in these subjects) there are those who, either directly or ambiguously through innuendo, bash on the Official viewer.

So, I am asking the question why? What exactly is it about the Official viewer that makes it *bad* or so *horrible* to you? So far, I've not seen a single justifiable response. LOL And to be clear: *I* believe all viewers are excellent viewers; they all do an excellent job of displaying and allowing us to interact with the in-world content, some differently than others, but in the end: all doing so.

Hmm... what exactly it is in the official viewer what I don't like? It's not *horrible* but it's bad for me in some respects.
Let's see... (my personal feelings):

[Begin *bashing*] 😉

• The general look of the UI (even though it follows the general "standard" layout of many other programs) is not very nice.
- - I have never liked pitch black look of the UI in any program (not even in the forums). Dark grey would be lot nicer one.
- - I already mentioned the chat window; the line separation is too tight. Your example to "increase the font size" makes the text and line spacing too big.
• Many things are available only in the top menus where you have to dig what you want. More mouse clicks, slower to use.
• Some important often used features are available only in the big preferences window. Again slower to use.
• And naturally the official viewer lacks many of the handy features what I use daily in other viewer.

Those are the main things what I don't like in the official viewer.

[End of *bashing*] 😃
 

[Phil Deakins]

@Coby Foden The LL viewer does not have a "pitch black" UI. It has exactly what you suggest is much nicer - dark grey (exactly the same as Firestorm) - and that's only in very small parts, much the same as in this Firefox browser I'm using. It has small dark grey bits too. You even showed that yourself in the local chat floaters. It doesn't have a dark feel to it all, let alone a pitch black feel.

The idea that the LL viewer is dark is completely wrong. The V2 was because the darker parts took up way too much of the screen, but not since then.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Phil Deakins

[Alyona Su]

9 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

Hmm... what exactly it is in the official viewer what I don't like? It's not *horrible* but it's bad for me in some respects.
Let's see... (my personal feelings):

[Begin *bashing*] 😉

• The general look of the UI (even though it follows the general "standard" layout of many other programs) is not very nice.
- - I have never liked pitch black look of the UI in any program (not even in the forums). Dark grey would be lot nicer one.
- - I already mentioned the chat window; the line separation is too tight. Your example to "increase the font size" makes the text and line spacing too big.
• Many things are available only in the top menus where you have to dig what you want. More mouse clicks, slower to use.
• Some important often used features are available only in the big preferences window. Again slower to use.
• And naturally the official viewer lacks many of the handy features what I use daily in other viewer.

Those are the main things what I don't like in the official viewer.

[End of *bashing*] 😃
 

NOW we're getting somewhere! Hahaha. Thank you.

As I've said previously: I've always believed there's nothing wrong with outright disliking; nay, even *hating* something, as long as you have a justifiable reason to.

[WillowTenage]

On 1/7/2019 at 4:31 PM, norajulian said:

Alchemy is another great option, although I don’t think they’ve upped to Animesh just yet. Granted, I don’t find myself i situations that deem it necessary but I’ll use Alchemy for photos on occasion and frame rates are great. 

OP, as others have said it depends on what you do with your SL and what your goals are. It would also be helpful to see the stats of your particular rig. If you are using Intel graphics, there is a current bug that may be causing your usual SL viewer to bug out. 

After reading your post, I gave Alchemy a try and was very impressed with it.  It was much smoother than Firestorm or the LL viewer on my computer. 

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

The idea that the LL viewer is dark is completely wrong. The V2 was, but not since then.

I suspect, also, that much of the "gripe" about the official LL viewer also stems from this old transition from versions 1 to 2. Even though in my mind, it was a noble and necessary effort by Linden Lab, the change was very *jarring* to everyone who's spent months, even years learning the version 1 UI.

The caveat, I suspect, is that many of those who "despise" the Official viewer still have that bad taste in their mouths and have not bothered to look at and give the current version a fair chance (which to me is spending at least a full three or four days with it for a proper shake-down).  So your comments have given me food-for-thought and this is the conclusion I come to: Those who bash the Official viewer are really bashing the version 2.0 version, and have no clue how much better the current version actually is.

Generally-speaking, of course LOL

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, WillowTenage said:

After reading your post, I gave Alchemy a try and was very impressed with it.  It was much smoother than Firestorm or the LL viewer on my computer. 

I remember Alchemy, I liked it. Though at the time it hadn't been updated in a long time - is it brought up to within the last year? (I consider a year to be "current", anything older is falling into "too old" territory for me).

[Phil Deakins]

@Alyona Su

On the web, we see a lot of people who are anti <the main things>. It's occured with Microsoft for a very long time, and with IE, also for a very long time. Many people tend to bias towards alternatives, just because they are there, and just for the sake of it. And they persuade themselves of compelling reasons to be against <the main things> That bias has nothing to do with which is best. It has everything to do with being different, just for the sake of it. I believe that that applies to the anti-LL-viewer bias - just to be different.

That doesn't apply to everyone, of course. There are some people who find a particular viewer suits their needs the best - photography, building, and inventory management have been mentioned in this thread, for instance. But I believe it does apply to most non-LL-viewer users. That my opinion, anyway

Edited January 10, 2019 by Phil Deakins

[WillowTenage]

11 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I remember Alchemy, I liked it. Though at the time it hadn't been updated in a long time - is it brought up to within the last year? (I consider a year to be "current", anything older is falling into "too old" territory for me).

I just looked at the release notes for the latest viewer I could find, and they are dated as November 15th, 2017.. that is a shame, I really do enjoy the viewer though.

[Alyona Su]

5 minutes ago, WillowTenage said:

I just looked at the release notes for the latest viewer I could find, and they are dated as November 15th, 2017.. that is a shame, I really do enjoy the viewer though.

That's recent enough that I'd give it maybe until the end of the month before I started looking really closely at the TPV list.

I love the inventory management features of Catznip and its release was 12,15,17 - BUT, I also know that they have been testing a beta of the next release for the last couple months, and unlike Firestorm and Linden Lab, a lot of these TPVs are often just *one person* doing them. Maybe two. Though I am the squishy type person, I tend to always give the benefit of doubt wherever I can. LOL

世界上更多的和平与爱，越多越好

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alyona Su

[steeljane42]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Alyona Su

On the web, we see a lot of people who are anti <the main things>. It's occured with Microsoft for a very long time, and with IE, also for a very long time. Many people tend to bias towards alternatives, just because they are there, and just for the sake of it. And they persuade themselves of compelling reasons to be against <the main things> That bias has nothing to do with which is best. It has everything to do with being different, just for the sake of it. I believe that that applies to the anti-LL-viewer bias - just to be different.

That doesn't apply to everyone, of course. There are some people who find a particular viewer suits their needs the best - photography, building, and inventory management have been mentioned in this thread, for instance. But I believe it does apply to most non-LL-viewer users. That my opinion, anyway

Or perhaps, just perhaps, IE was awful since early versions, didn't follow web standards, didn't had any customization options and look where it is now. It's dead. And Edge is pretty much gone too, Microsoft just going to have own browser based on Chromium. Turns out the alternatives were better enough to kill the "original" completely.

 

Anyways, I prefer FS myself, in FS mode. I gave SL a serious try in 2012 and I did try all viewers that were available back then and after a couple of weeks I settled on Firestorm and use it ever since. So it's not getting used to original UI and not wanting to change, I think what people call v1 was earlier than that.

I like the pie menus and I like options FS has. I hardly can imagine how it's to use SL without area search, be it my own sim or shopping. I like the UI, I like additioal build options, I like LSL bridge functions, I like easy ways to disable/block bunch of things I don't use/don't like (look at, group chats and similar stuff), I like that is has 2GB VRAM buffer for textures instead of 512mb ( that alone would be enough for me to use FS ). For the most part I don't ever crash (except one version in 2016 I believe, which used to crash every couple of weeks), FPS are good, lots of customization options, just how I like it (my web browser is also heavily customized with addons, themes, userstyles and userscripts, makes browsing much more enjoyable).

Edited January 10, 2019 by steeljane42
Typos.

[BelindaN]

My first day with a new laptop and Firestorm after eight months on an old laptop and SL viewer.

The difference is astonishing.  Much greater resolution and much better graphics. Also much faster to rezz on landing in sim.

So I won't be going back. It will take me a while to understand the bells and whistles but I like it a lot.

Edited January 10, 2019 by BelindaN

[Coby Foden]

3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Coby Foden The LL viewer does not have a "pitch black" UI. It has exactly what you suggest is much nicer - dark grey (exactly the same as Firestorm) - and that's only in very small parts, much the same as in this Firefox browser I'm using. It has small dark grey bits too. You even showed that yourself in the local chat floaters. It doesn't have a dark feel to it all, let alone a pitch black feel.

The idea that the LL viewer is dark is completely wrong. The V2 was because the darker parts took up way too much of the screen, but not since then.

Let's start nit-picking are there actually any differences in the darkness of some UI elements in the viewers - or is it just my imagination.
The chat window for example. Brightness measurements show the following in the chat window elements:

Left side:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 17%

Title area:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 21%

Text area:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 21%

So there is a difference, LL viewer is the darker one. And I can see it clearly on my monitor with my eyes.
If you don't see any difference on your monitor then you need to calibrate your monitor.

Now with this evidence I'll stop calling LL viewer "pitch black" (which would have brightness of 0%) and I'll start calling it "the darker" one. 😃
And you should stop claiming that they look exactly the same, (which  they don't are). Thanks. 🙂

Edited January 10, 2019 by Coby Foden

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Coby Foden said:

Now with this evidence I'll stop calling LL viewer "pitch black" (which would have brightness of 0%) and I'll start calling it "the darker" one. 😃
And you should stop claiming that they look exactly the same, (which  they don't are). Thanks. 🙂

He’s literally gaslighting you, it’s too dark for him to tell the difference!

[Coby Foden]

3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Alyona Su

On the web, we see a lot of people who are anti <the main things>. It's occured with Microsoft for a very long time, and with IE, also for a very long time. Many people tend to bias towards alternatives, just because they are there, and just for the sake of it. And they persuade themselves of compelling reasons to be against <the main things> That bias has nothing to do with which is best. It has everything to do with being different, just for the sake of it. I believe that that applies to the anti-LL-viewer bias - just to be different.

That doesn't apply to everyone, of course. There are some people who find a particular viewer suits their needs the best - photography, building, and inventory management have been mentioned in this thread, for instance. But I believe it does apply to most non-LL-viewer users. That my opinion, anyway

Oh Phil. You deserve a hug for those two sentences what I underlined in your post. 😉

[DemeraraGirl]

13 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wait. What's that????

It's an option in the snapshot preview window to freeze the screen/world, that way it's possible to change the angle of the camera before take the snapshot.

In the GIF below, I used Black Dragon viewer. I checked the Freeze World box twice just to show how everything stops moving when it's marked. After that I moved the camera as usual by pressing CTRL+ALT+ mouse left-click. You can see that not just my avatar stopped, but clouds, water, everything around her.

 

And once the world is completely stationary, before take the snapshot, it's possible to change not only the angle, but windlight, DOF, etc.
It's very useful to capture movements, like a party with lots of avatars dancing, where you freeze the world on a certain move and then go to find a perfect angle for a snapshot. Here's a YouTube video about it:

 

In other viewers, the Freeze Frame option seems to never worked well. It's still possible to change the angle after freezing the screen, but it's more complicated to work in my opinion.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, DemeraraGirl said:

It's an option in the snapshot preview window to freeze the screen/world, that way it's possible to change the angle of the camera before take the snapshot.

In the GIF below, I used Black Dragon viewer. I checked the Freeze World box twice just to show how everything stops moving when it's marked. After that I moved the camera as usual by pressing CTRL+ALT+ mouse left-click. You can see that not just my avatar stopped, but clouds, water, everything around her.

 

And once the world is completely stationary, before take the snapshot, it's possible to change not only the angle, but windlight, DOF, etc.
It's very useful to capture movements, like a party with lots of avatars dancing, where you freeze the world on a certain move and then go to find a perfect angle for a snapshot. Here's a YouTube video about it:

 

In other viewers, the Freeze Frame option seems to never worked well. It's still possible to change the angle after freezing the screen, but it's more complicated to work in my opinion.

Wow. That's a pretty powerful tool!

I mostly use static poses, or AnyPose to disable joints and essentially freeze my avatar where I want her, but I can see lots of potential applications for this. Your point about catching a scene with other avatars in it is a really good one.

Thanks!

[Phil Deakins]

13 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Or perhaps, just perhaps, IE was awful since early versions, didn't follow web standards, didn't had any customization options and look where it is now. It's dead. And Edge is pretty much gone too, Microsoft just going to have own browser based on Chromium. Turns out the alternatives were better enough to kill the "original" completely.

No, IE wasn't awful, and there were no standards for it to follow. If there were any standards, IE made them after it entered the fray. IE became the standard browser through sheer popularity of use. There have always been recommendations from W3C, but they aren't, and never were, standards. And W3C never claimed them to be.

Edge was very late to the party, and from its inception, it would always fight an uphill battle.

You're right about the alternatives being better enough to kill the original though. The original being Netscape, and the alternatives being IE and one or two very small ones, the biggie being IE, of course. Perhaps you were a bit late to the party too

Edited January 11, 2019 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

12 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

Let's start nit-picking are there actually any differences in the darkness of some UI elements in the viewers - or is it just my imagination.
The chat window for example. Brightness measurements show the following in the chat window elements:

Left side:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 17%

Title area:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 21%

Text area:
• Firestorm 24%
• LL viewer 21%

So there is a difference, LL viewer is the darker one. And I can see it clearly on my monitor with my eyes.
If you don't see any difference on your monitor then you need to calibrate your monitor.

Now with this evidence I'll stop calling LL viewer "pitch black" (which would have brightness of 0%) and I'll start calling it "the darker" one. 😃
And you should stop claiming that they look exactly the same, (which  they don't are). Thanks. 🙂

Naa, Coby. Yes, there's a slight difference in the darkness of the darker parts of the 2 chat windows, but it's so slight that the difference wouldn't even be noticed unless you put them side by side - as you did in the graphic you posted. And the difference seen there is so small that it's really not worth mentioning. The difference between pitch black and dark grey is very big, and definitely worth mentioning, except that it simply doesn't apply here.

Sorry Coby, but having the 2 viewers open side by side, there is precious little difference between them, and definitely no difference worth even mentioning in their darknesses - as your nit-picking percentages actually show!

12 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

And you should stop claiming that they look exactly the same, (which  they don't are). Thanks. 🙂

FIFY

Edited January 11, 2019 by Phil Deakins

[Linda Reddevil]

6 hours ago, DemeraraGirl said:

It's an option in the snapshot preview window to freeze the screen/world, that way it's possible to change the angle of the camera before take the snapshot.

In the GIF below, I used Black Dragon viewer. I checked the Freeze World box twice just to show how everything stops moving when it's marked. After that I moved the camera as usual by pressing CTRL+ALT+ mouse left-click. You can see that not just my avatar stopped, but clouds, water, everything around her.

 

And once the world is completely stationary, before take the snapshot, it's possible to change not only the angle, but windlight, DOF, etc.
It's very useful to capture movements, like a party with lots of avatars dancing, where you freeze the world on a certain move and then go to find a perfect angle for a snapshot. Here's a YouTube video about it:

 

In other viewers, the Freeze Frame option seems to never worked well. It's still possible to change the angle after freezing the screen, but it's more complicated to work in my opinion.

Do you recall the windlight you used when you recorded your GIF? 

[Coby Foden]

48 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

FIFY

Aarghh... Phil! Your "FIFY" is against the true fact, and you do know it.
What you did was: "I changed Coby's text to what I think of the matter, because I think Coby is wrong even though the evidence shows that she might be right."