Whats the best sl viewer?

[Coby Foden]

My personal preference is Firestorm because of its specific multiple handy features of which I use many every day.
On rare occasions I use Black Dragon and LL's viewer.

Black Dragon is nice for snapshots but unfortunately its UI needs heavy learning because it is very different compared to others.
(The developer of Black Dragon claims that the UI is not difficult at all - of course it's not for him - but for any casual user it is a PITA.)

LL's viewer lacks many handy features what Firestorm has. And its UI is not very nice to look at.

[Alyona Su]

2 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

LL's viewer lacks many handy features what Firestorm has. And its UI is not very nice to look at.

This is true about lack of features, though I must admit that the whole idea of "I don't like the UI..." is what gets me every time someone mentioned it.

So that same general UI paradigm that is also used in MS Word, Photoshop, Gimp, Web Browsers and pretty much 90% of all the rest (including on macOS as well as MS Windows) is so bad...why? Because it's LL Viewer? I am seriously and genuinely curious here (and I am directing this at everyone who claims this, not only to @Coby Foden - I quote her as a generic reason for my question (emphasis in that quote is mine)).

What, specifically, is the part of the LL viewer interface that is so bad (considering that it pretty much follows standard-practices for most commercial software)?

I am now and have always been of the impression that people throw that "gripe" out as an additional bullet point for reasoning on their choice of viewers. Which I think is a silly argument. You can still LOVE [name third-party viewer] without HATING on [name ANY other viewer, including LL official).

Hey, some people cannot STAND the color yellow, (as an example,) I get it. It's just funny how so many seem to have the same dislike for something that they face 99% of the time in almost every other app they use.

[Nichole Bergamasco]

Thank you all so much for all the information, it was so helpful.  I think I had Phoenix (firestorm) in the past and it was great.  Have a great day everyone

[Coby Foden]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I am now and have always been of the impression that people throw that "gripe" out as an additional bullet point for reasoning on their choice of viewers. Which I think is a silly argument. You can still LOVE [name third-party viewer] without HATING on [name ANY other viewer, including LL official).

Personally I don't love nor hate any viewer's UI. It's about what I like best and what I don't like so much. Some UIs look better and are nicer and easier to use than some others. Besides that Firestorm has many new Features what other viewers might not have, Firestorm has also handy UI enhancement which make the usage of the common features what all viewers have more fluid and easier. For example in LL viewer some often needed features can be accessed only from the menu or from the preferences window. For some features some other additional window must be opened. In Firestorm UI it's not often necessary to do so.

I even like the Firestorm's chat window better than LL viewer's chat window. In LL viewer the line spacing is too tight. I find Firestorm's chat window text easier to read because the line spacing is not so tight.

Firestorm has included "Contacts" tab in the chat window where you can see list of your friends and list of your groups. In LL viewer you need to open separate window. Small enhancements like that make Firestorm very nice to use.

[ThorinII]

17 hours ago, Linda Reddevil said:

Is that even updated anymore? 

Of course, it is been updated - although the UI still stays the same.

Henri Beauchamp updates their Cool VL Viewer pretty often, every one to two weeks, in order to stay up-to-date with the other viewers and to fix bugs. The latest version (1.26.22.29) was released on Jan 05, 2019.

[ThorinII]

11 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

This is true about lack of features, though I must admit that the whole idea of "I don't like the UI..." is what gets me every time someone mentioned it.

So that same general UI paradigm that is also used in MS Word, Photoshop, Gimp, Web Browsers and pretty much 90% of all the rest (including on macOS as well as MS Windows) is so bad...why? Because it's LL Viewer? I am seriously and genuinely curious here (and I am directing this at everyone who claims this, not only to @Coby Foden - I quote her as a generic reason for my question (emphasis in that quote is mine)).

What, specifically, is the part of the LL viewer interface that is so bad (considering that it pretty much follows standard-practices for most commercial software)?

I am now and have always been of the impression that people throw that "gripe" out as an additional bullet point for reasoning on their choice of viewers. Which I think is a silly argument. You can still LOVE [name third-party viewer] without HATING on [name ANY other viewer, including LL official).

Hey, some people cannot STAND the color yellow, (as an example,) I get it. It's just funny how so many seem to have the same dislike for something that they face 99% of the time in almost every other app they use.

 

To be honest I really don't like that dark theme that's often used now. Black text on a light background is better readable than white text on a dark background. However, and to answer your question:

• Firstly, I strongly prefer the pie menu over the other one, it's way more ergonomic, and more intuitive as well.
• Secondly, those dark opaque windows that clutter the entire view if you open more than one.
• Then, the camera tools (which I often have open) are too big, as well as the build- and inventory windows.
• Fourth: Instead of the Legacy profile, it uses the web profile which is not only slower and less informative but eats up even more space as well - and you don't have easy access to your groups either.
• And fifth, I don't like the vertical stacking of IM's and stuff: I prefer horizontal tabs underneath the chat window. Plus, it takes some time to put all IM's into one chat window, instead of having them in single floaters cluttering the space.

Also, I would rather see the "original" V1.x UI used in Firestorm Phoenix Mode, but I consider Firestorm's Phoenix Mode ("Legacy") UI a good compromise between new and old UI.

[Whirly Fizzle]

10 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

In LL viewer the line spacing is too tight. I find Firestorm's chat window text easier to read because the line spacing is not so tight.

You can actually adjust that line spacing in Firestorm too.
Preferences -> User Interface -> Font -> Chat Line Spacing.

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

@Coby FodenThis is true about lack of features, though I must admit that the whole idea of "I don't like the UI..." is what gets me every time someone mentioned it.

 

I was thinking exactly the same as you when I read your post.

I have both the LL viewer and Firestorm open right now, and there's precious little difference between the look and feel of the UIs. There is one bit where Firestorm is significantly worse, imo - it uses buttons for on-screen one-click TP favourites. LL's viewer is better for that, but that's just a small bit. Where Firestorm is different in its UI is that it has a load of extras, most of which aren't used by everyone, of course, and many of which clutter the menus. Firestorm is undoubtedly better with features, but features are not the UI.

@Coby Foden Sorry, Coby, but I don't agree with you that Firestorm's chat line-spacing is better. For you, no doubt it is, but for me, I don't mind either of them, and I'm perfectly happy with the official viewer's line-spacing.

I suspect that the UI is often stated by people who have seen others say it, and so they repeat it without giving it any particular thought. In other words, it's more of an assumption. That's what I suspect. Or perhaps they mean that there is much more in Firestorm's menus, most of which they don't even use.

The best UI for each of us is the one that we're used to. For me, it's the official viewer because that's what I'm used to. For others it's whatever viewer they are used to. E.g. who had the daft idea to replace 'About Land' in the World menu with 'Parcel Details'? I wasn't used to 'Parcel Details' yesterday so it took a little bit to find what I was looking for in Firestorm's cluttered World menu. What was the point of changing it? It certainly wasn't a change for the better. It was a change 'just because I can'.

[Coby Foden]

44 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

E.g. who had the daft idea to replace 'About Land' in the World menu with 'Parcel Details'? I wasn't used to 'Parcel Details' yesterday so it took a little bit to find what I was looking for in Firestorm's cluttered World menu. What was the point of changing it? It certainly wasn't a change for the better. It was a change 'just because I can'.

In Firestorm you don't even need to go to the World menu to open the "About Land" window.

In Firestorm: Just one click and the "About Land" window is open.
In LL viewer: Click the world menu, move your mouse to "About Land" and click that to open the "About Land" window.

There are also many other features which can be accessed in Firestorm UI with less mouse clicks than in LL's viewer UI.
Because I use lots of the various functions in the viewer the quick and easy access to them in the viewer UI is a big bonus.

[Phil Deakins]

Alright, but changing the words from 'About Land' to 'Parcel Details' in the World menu, was daft, especially as that menu has become quite cluttered.

Your graphic highlights exactly what I said - the best UI for each of us is the one that we are used to. None is better than the other. Even the V2 was good IF it was the first one you used and got used to. I remember some people actually posting that they liked it.

[Alyona Su]

14 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

I even like the Firestorm's chat window better than LL viewer's chat window. In LL viewer the line spacing is too tight. I find Firestorm's chat window text easier to read because the line spacing is not so tight.

The feature thing is a given. My question is about whenever "Interface" is brought up. Pie menu notwithstanding (even though it requires two to four times as many clicks to accomplish something) - most of the interface is similar. Your example of the chat box: Here is the Official LL viewer:

With "Expanded view" and default "Medium" font:

And here with the "Compact" view and Large font:

 (Names obscured intentionally if that's not obvious)

So, setting features aside (always the best reason to choose your favorite viewer) - my argument is that the user interface (pie menu notwithstanding) is more often than not a paper tiger argument and a disingenuous "bullet" to add to a list.

[Theresa Tennyson]

56 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

In Firestorm you don't even need to go to the World menu to open the "About Land" window.

In Firestorm: Just one click and the "About Land" window is open.

58 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

In Firestorm you don't even need to go to the World menu to open the "About Land" window.

In Firestorm: Just one click and the "About Land" window is open.
In LL viewer: Click the world menu, move your mouse to "About Land" and click that to open the "About Land" window.

 

 

You don't need to use the World menu in the Linden Lab viewer either - you can either right-click the ground or, if you use "About Land" as much as I do, you can put a button to open that menu with one click where you want it.

[Alyona Su]

5 hours ago, ThorinII said:

To be honest I really don't like that dark theme that's often used now. Black text on a light background is better readable than white text on a dark background. However, and to answer your question:

• Firstly, I strongly prefer the pie menu over the other one, it's way more ergonomic, and more intuitive as well.
• Secondly, those dark opaque windows that clutter the entire view if you open more than one.
• Then, the camera tools (which I often have open) are too big, as well as the build- and inventory windows.
• Fourth: Instead of the Legacy profile, it uses the web profile which is not only slower and less informative but eats up even more space as well - and you don't have easy access to your groups either.
• And fifth, I don't like the vertical stacking of IM's and stuff: I prefer horizontal tabs underneath the chat window. Plus, it takes some time to put all IM's into one chat window, instead of having them in single floaters cluttering the space.

Also, I would rather see the "original" V1.x UI used in Firestorm Phoenix Mode, but I consider Firestorm's Phoenix Mode ("Legacy") UI a good compromise between new and old UI.

I get the pie menu - though it's only intuitive because you've been here since version 1.x. Ergonomic: I'm not so sure. For example, four or five clicks to get to "defender and blacklist" - with pie menu turned off: one click.  

Now, that's all fine, but my questions aren't why do you prefer Firestorm (or any other third party viewer) but, rather, why do you "dislike" the LL Viewer interface, when it pretty much matches every other Windows (or macOS) App?

Dark opaque colors - same as Firestorm, albeit the LL Viewer has a little more blue in it than Firestorm which has more red for a more neutral gray, so I can see your point on this one. As for camera tools, fair enough. Though that would have to do more with your display size, I should presume. Though I agree: that snapshot window should be resizable in LL v iewer1

We Profile is in Firestorm also - and I concur: the "Legacy" style is faster and better, even if depreciated. Catznip also uses the TRUE legacy Profile viewer (the actual design from version 1.x viewer). Most people hate that one. So, the "legacy" profile viewer in Firestorm is a Firestorm-only feature, all other viewers either use the Web or the ancient version. So I'm going to say this one does not count (since many other TPVs also use it).

Agreed, a few viewers offer the choice of verticle or horizontal chat-tab stacking. But again, many viewers do not. So I think this point also shouldn't count as "why Offical viewer is bad) - it is a "Non-Firestorm" is bad.

I reiterate that my question is for those people who claim *Official LL viewer* Interface is the reason they dislike it so much.

[Alyona Su]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I suspect that the UI is often stated by people who have seen others say it, and so they repeat it without giving it any particular thought. In other words, it's more of an assumption. That's what I suspect. Or perhaps they mean that there is much more in Firestorm's menus, most of which they don't even use.

THIS. Exactly this.

I remember back during the "Windows vs. Mac" wars when Windows users would say "I HATE MAC!" and my reply was always "Have you ever used a Mac?" - answer: "No", then why do you hate it? It's okay to hate it as long as you have a reason to hate. But if you cannot state your reason, then you are full of bull-sh... Yeah. LOL

I actually LIKE the Official LL viewer interface and it isn't very different from Firestorm or Catznip or many of the others. The one and the only reason I don't use it regularly is no RLV (I use CTS Wardrobe to manage my outfits: requires RLV). The *only* reason to use the TPV are the extra features they offer. I use two myself: Catznip for the inventory-management features and, on occasion, Firestorm. Though I'd use the LL Viewer a lot more if only for that RLV.

Ugh, I have to leave for work. Gonna reply to others when I get the change LOL

[Coby Foden]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You don't need to use the World menu in the Linden Lab viewer either - you can either right-click the ground or, if you use "About Land" as much as I do, you can put a button to open that menu with one click where you want it.

But in Firestorm you don't need to put that button on your screen because there is already easy one click access to the "About Land" window. Surely in all viewers we can also click the land (two clicks: right click + left click) to open the "About Land" window. I already have 20 buttons for the most used functions at the bottom on my screen, no need to add one more in Firestorm. What I personally especially like in Firestorm's UI is that many things what I use often are readily available with minimum mouse clicks.

[Phil Deakins]

34 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You don't need to use the World menu in the Linden Lab viewer either - you can either right-click the ground or, if you use "About Land" as much as I do, you can put a button to open that menu with one click where you want it.

You can't click on the ground when you're a few thousand meters in the sky

On the ground, that's what I normally do - click on the ground.

[ThorinII]

47 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Now, that's all fine, but my questions aren't why do you prefer Firestorm (or any other third party viewer) but, rather, why do you "dislike" the LL Viewer interface

Why I dislike the new LL Viewer Interface? It's frigging ugly, too dark, too counter-intuitive, and too kludgy. I really loved the light, less intruding, and more intuitive V1.x interface. And having the choice between viewers with different UI's, I always choose one with a UI that's at least close to V1.x. And with other software, I also don't like their idiotic change from light UIs to dark ones. And no, I'm not willing to re-learn or to just get used to it. I rather install an older version of some software which has a light UI than having my screen darkened because of the UI of its latest version. 👿

However, as much as I loathe the fugly & kludgy UI of the official LL viewer, I always have its latest version on my computer (installed via PlayOnLinux, because LL has no native Linux viewer anymore 😡) so that I can check with that if something's wrong while using a TPV.

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by ThorinII

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 1/8/2019 at 9:43 PM, chibiusa Ling said:

It really was though. 2.0 was horrific and 3.0 is not far off in terms of the UI and its general setup. I think thats part of the reason why Firestorm and Singularity were so popular, they keep in line with the V1.0 style.

I started Second Life when the default viewer was Viewer 2.0 (the actual Viewer 2.0, first release with the sidebar.) I found it pretty simple and easy to use.

Within the first few weeks I was in Second Life I downloaded and installed Phoenix because I was nagged to. I found the user interface to be utter garbage and kicked it to the curb except for testing in short order. To this day I still use the Linden Lab viewer and stack menus on the right-hand side of the screen to mimic the behavior of the sidebar.

Whether you like something is no indication of whether or not it is better than something else using any sort of objective criteria.

I do think that Viewer 2.0 was a bad idea, not because of the UI itself, which I obviously still prefer, but that even if it was objectively better people would naturally still use what they were used to and it created the situation where new users were using a radically different interface than most of the more experienced users. No matter how "intuitive" any sort of interface is put on Second Life it's so complicated that new users would need help, and most of the people who new users would rely on for help would still be using the old interface.

[Phil Deakins]

Theresa's experience does seem to be a very good exmple of what I've said - that the best viewer for each individual is the one that each person gets used to.

55 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

Why I dislike the new LL Viewer Interface? It's frigging ugly, too dark, too counter-intuitive, and too kludgy.

It's definitely not ugly - except in your eyes, of course, but so is Firestorm in your eyes. I know that becuase they are both the same by default. At its edges, it's probably darker than the V1 was, but it's darkness is identical to Firestorm, and neither of them have a 'dark feel' about them (like the V2 had) because the darker bits are only on the narrow edges. I don't know what you mean by "kludgy", but, imo, it's definitely not what I think of as kludgy.

Anyway, it's each to his/her own. What I think about each viewer is absolutely correct ....... for me! And the same applies to everyone else. There is no "best viewer", as such. There are viewers that are best for individuals, for a variety of reasons, but that's as far as it goes. The best for being bang up to date is the LL viewer. The best for extra features are TPVs, and those are broken down into which features an individual wants. From what I've read here, there are best viewers in terms of graphics, FPS, etc. etc. Someone suggested trying them all to see which suits you (whoever you are ), and I agree.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Phil Deakins

[Alyona Su]

52 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

It's frigging ugly, too dark, too counter-intuitive, and too kludgy.

Okay, serious question: Regarding too kludgy and counter-intuitive, do you feel that way about almost every other single app on all computer platforms? Because they all pretty much use a similar paradigm in UI. As for the too dark: many prefer a "dark mode" (many use it on the new version of macOS and Windows 10) and there was even a lot of requests for these very forums to have a dark mode (which they now do and I use myself).

I do agree: the color-scheme, though a better design to put the focus on the in-world content, (this is common with most photo editors and manager apps,) it should have an option to switch to a brighter scheme. Though, Firestorm and most others also use a "dark mode" color scheme, unless you choose to change it (when that option exists). So I am going to have to disagree with you on these points, meaning to say that I don't think you've answered my question in a way that legitimises the argument.

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Coby Foden said:

But in Firestorm you don't need to put that button on your screen

This is a disingenuous perspective. No one "needs" to do anything. You are debunking one "easy way to do it" with another "easy way to do it". The wonderful thing about ALL SL viewers, and most apps, in general, is that there are multiple ways to do *everything* and  not one way is the "correct" or "better" way.

~Now speaking in general~

This is exactly the kind of comment that brings my curiosity in *why* do you (general "you,") feel the need to defend something that doesn't need defending?

I know why: because (as I've learned in my communications studies) people feel a need to know that the choice they have made are the right ones, and will look for any reason to help justify or legitimize those choices.

Steve Jobs once said: "MS Windows does not have to lose for us to win" - Which was and still is true. It is a zero-sum argument: All SL Viewers are *great* viewers, including the Official LL Viewer.

If you prefer the Firestorm or, as in my case, Catznip or another then that's great. That doesn't mean the others are "bad" in any way.  There is no reason to feel a need to "legitimize" your choice to anyone other than yourself.

[Alyona Su]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

because I was nagged to

This has always been my personal belief why so many people use it. Almost everyone that I've personally asked, their answer was generally this. They don't even use (and many unaware of) the advanced Firestorm features, the very reason to use it. I'm not bashing Firestorm - it's an excellent Viewer. Though, for me, it's a pig in a poke: most features are available in other viewers, albeit firestorm does do a better job of organizing related features together and the new techno-nerd tools are definitely must-haves for creators and builders.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Love Zhaoying]

I only installed FS viewer to block unwanted group chats. I rarely use it, and use LL official instead.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 1/9/2019 at 8:30 AM, DemeraraGirl said:

other useful features for pictures like the freeze screen option

Wait. What's that????

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I only installed FS viewer to block unwanted group chats. I rarely use it, and use LL official instead.

If I could find a way (as HUD or something) that could allow me to web-based-manage my outfits and mix-and-match and easily change clothes, hair, jewelry, *everything and anything* willy-nilly without the need for RLV, then I would probably use the LL Viewer full-time also. The reason is that, FOR ME: the *performance* is better and it just feels "snappier" in things; it feels light-weight and more nimble than other viewers, definitely a better experience (FOR ME) than Firestorm, and though Catznip performs better than Firestorm (FOR ME) - the LL Viewer is still better. FOR ME. LOL

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Wait. What's that????

It's a preference setting that basically updates the screen only when you change camera angles or something or other. I have found it is only useful (for ME) under specific circumstances, otherwise, I find it to be a hindrance and slow things way down.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alyona Su