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6 hours ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Ah but you are forgetting about Brats

I am not forgetting about brats at all. A brat can stretch the boundaries all they like, they can even poke their toes over the line swearing black and blue that they are - in fact - on the correct side, but doing that they should realise they won't get away with it and (to my original point) if they push it too far then they don't deserve a dominant and will likely be released.

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Or, if not, can we at least add a big warning pop-up, requiring anybody who blocks attachments to confirm that they surrender all rights to ever again complain about their own lag and accept responsibility for everybody else's problems? Because yeah, it's true, we let all kinds of crappy scripts loose on the grid--more's the pity--but wouldn't it at least be better if they came with warning labels?

I'd hazard a guess that the bulk of vanilla people wear their body alpha huds and head animation HUDs all the time Qie. in fact I'd also suggest that most don't even realise this feature exists.

I'd also say that most people in the affected cohort would be mindful of their script load as well as needing every attachment point they can get hold of. #RLV/.outfits are a valid replacement in this case.

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1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

I'd hazard a guess that the bulk of vanilla people wear their body alpha huds and head animation HUDs all the time Qie. in fact I'd also suggest that most don't even realise this feature exists.

I think that's true, and we have good reason to believe that this is a significant contributor to the increase in sim lag directly attributable to scripts, especially on regions with relatively light static script load but a lot of avatars coming and going. This is a real trend that's happening on the grid, so if folks are going to be able to tolerate the lag in six months it'll be because something changes. If it's possible to educate product users and encourage adoption of this feature, it's by far the least intrusive step I see that might make a difference.

On the plus side, some of the big mesh product makers seem to at least recognize the problem, so for example Catwa separates their animation HUD from their "master" HUD, so if folks know about the Favorite Wearables feature, they have a way to cut their script load (and HUD texture size) that's painless enough they might actually do it.

I'm actually fine with folks wearing a head animation HUD, given the nature of mesh heads; it's a script that actually serves a purpose, even if it burns some script time. There are a hell of a lot of other scripts that are completely quiescent but still Running, and those contribute to those big teleport-in spikes even if they haven't processed an event in months, literally. That's a rich vein to mine for savings, and that includes BDSM attachments. Above I cited cuff scripts particularly, but honestly the approach I'm suggesting could peel a bunch of scripts from a refactored collar, and for that matter shrink everything from tails to (especially) resizers and texturizers -- but only if the script-pushing scripts can themselves be readily added and removed, which means adoption of that feature gates this whole class of further improvements.

Edited by Qie Niangao

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7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay. But again, about how RLV{a} can block viewer control of attachment points, defeating even Quick Preferences:Folder / Favourite Wearables, is there some practical use for that, outside of kink? If it's really all about the D/s thing, is there some substitute that would make everybody feel adequately D/s'd or whatever while still allowing just this specific feature to instantly add/remove scripted attachments? 

Or, if not, can we at least add a big warning pop-up, requiring anybody who blocks attachments to confirm that they surrender all rights to ever again complain about their own lag and accept responsibility for everybody else's problems? Because yeah, it's true, we let all kinds of crappy scripts loose on the grid--more's the pity--but wouldn't it at least be better if they came with warning labels?

As someone who does understand scripts, I can understand your concern about this and your worry about the script load and possible lag it might cause by not being able to remove certain things. Thus possibly negatively affecting sim performance and affecting others enjoyment of the sim. But that is part of the D/s relationship giving up that choice if was so agreed to at the time of starting the relationship.

For those who do not like that being done, well they need to discuss it with their Dom/me before getting into the relationship of either not blocking inventory or not locking attachments. Make it a limit to what is accepted in the relationship. communication is key here.

As toward does it have a use outside of kink yes. it could be used by a parent to punish a child for misbehaving, locking the inventory and blocking attaching of items as a form of keeping the child from playing with their toys. It's not just about keeping the sub naked and thus limited to only 'A' rated sims.

Such a warning is sort of pointless for not everyone would ever read it and would just hit ok. And a lot of those within the D/s do know about the scripts in the items and wearing a lot might cause lag issues for themself or others. Not everyone no, but those who have been doing it for a while do and often take the time to limit the impact as best as possible. Yet you will find those that don't care and never will. So the warning would mean nothing to them.

Towards over use of scripts well that becomes the sim owners responsibility to set what they decide is acceptable limits and then have them enforced in whatever way they see fit. and then the users either comply or get booted and possibly banned and have to go someplace else.

Rlv/a is completely consensual and not everyone in D/s even uses it. Some see it as more a hindrance to the relationship and not an enhancement. For those people this entire topic is moot.

I do have a curiosity to the concern if it's just about the script load or if you are a sub that wears a collar and uses this to get around inventory blocks and now is worried that your owner might learn that they do have a way to prevent it. Because you seem adamant about it not being done, more than just a normal creator or scripter would be.

49 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I am not forgetting about brats at all. A brat can stretch the boundaries all they like, they can even poke their toes over the line swearing black and blue that they are - in fact - on the correct side, but doing that they should realise they won't get away with it and (to my original point) if they push it too far then they don't deserve a dominant and will likely be released.

I'd hazard a guess that the bulk of vanilla people wear their body alpha huds and head animation HUDs all the time Qie. in fact I'd also suggest that most don't even realise this feature exists.

I'd also say that most people in the affected cohort would be mindful of their script load as well as needing every attachment point they can get hold of. #RLV/.outfits are a valid replacement in this case.

It wouldn't say that they don't deserve a dominant, i would say that perhaps the dominant they had was not the right one for them. For there are dominants that would just see this a welcomed challenge by the brat and would find other ways of dealing with it then just releasing them. It becomes more a matter of patience and tolerance of the Dom/me and if they were really the right one for the task of taking on a brat of that caliber. Not every Dom/me is. it takes a special sort of Dom/me to handle a brat like that. One that is willing to put in the time and effort to see to the brats needs and not think that the brat is just there for their needs. To understand why the brat is acting that way and then what needs to be done about it, either more attention or setting some sort of punishment or some sort of task to keep the brat occupied so they won't feel the need to do that to poke at the Dom/me patience. Remember its a two-way street. Saying stop or else attempts to make it a one-way street which often does not end well when dealing with a brat or a willful sub

It really boils down to how well the brat and dominant discussed their relationship on what was acceptable or tolerable behaviours and what would be considered over the limit for either party. A Dom/me that just blocks inventory or locks attachments just because they can may not deserve the brat/sub that they have. communication is the key.

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Just now, Qie Niangao said:

If it's possible to educate product users and encourage adoption of this feature, it's by far the least intrusive step I see that might make a difference.

It's a great feature but it's far from intuitive, not on all viewers and it's well hidden. The toolbar icon isn't even there as a default with FS. But it'sd an amazing feature and when people are taught how to use it there is a benefit to everyone.

I see no problems in having it locked under RLV, and allowing #rlv/.outfits to fill the role. That still needs training though.

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4 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

It really boils down to how well the brat and dominant discussed their relationship on what was acceptable or tolerable behaviours and what would be considered over the limit for either party. A Dom/me that just blocks inventory or locks attachments just because they can may not deserve the brat/sub that they have. communication is the key.

You've totally missed my point. But that's ok. I know you mean well.

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1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

You've totally missed my point. But that's ok. I know you mean well.

If you wouldn't mind clarifying your view it may help me or others that ever read this understand your point and method of thinking about this and maybe see things in a different perspective. I am always open to learn new things. I will admit I can be obtuse about some things at times.

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7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay. But again, about how RLV{a} can block viewer control of attachment points, defeating even Quick Preferences:Folder / Favourite Wearables, is there some practical use for that, outside of kink? If it's really all about the D/s thing, is there some substitute that would make everybody feel adequately D/s'd or whatever while still allowing just this specific feature to instantly add/remove scripted attachments? 

Or, if not, can we at least add a big warning pop-up, requiring anybody who blocks attachments to confirm that they surrender all rights to ever again complain about their own lag and accept responsibility for everybody else's problems? Because yeah, it's true, we let all kinds of crappy scripts loose on the grid--more's the pity--but wouldn't it at least be better if they came with warning labels?

 

Yes, anyone that wants to lock an attachment so an item doesn't detach by accident. One example would be vanilla couples that have wedding rings. And No, we (as a community) want the extra step so as to prevent the accidental detachment of items. A quick use pref shouldn't override that functionality. When adding a favorite outfit, it should leave locked items in place and simply add or remove that outfit while leaving locked items alone.

So, now I've given you an example of non-D/s use. Can you give me an example of a script emergency that requires immediate detachment that a simple re-log and turning off RLV or even just waiting on one's home sim to be unlocked wouldn't accomplish?

We don't do it for arc and complexity except for the little 'Your complexity is blah blah blah, some people might not be able to see you now.' There are still people refusing to update their avatars with modern alternatives like that horrible tori tortured prim hair that adds 300k.

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2 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

I do have a curiosity to the concern if it's just about the script load or if you are a sub that wears a collar and uses this to get around inventory blocks and now is worried that your owner might learn that they do have a way to prevent it. Because you seem adamant about it not being done, more than just a normal creator or scripter would be.

I did kinda bury one big reason in a footnote to an earlier post in this thread, and only just referenced it again a few minutes ago: I kinda stumbled on an approach that could very dramatically reduce the script count of non-HUD attachments. But it only achieves real savings if the HUDs that push on-demand scripts to wearables are themselves only attached when the product needs scripted manipulation. And, of course, scripters would need to learn and adopt the approach, which is a bit... intricate.

So that's my "vested interest" (not as if I have a patent or anything, but potentially some bragging rights). The thing is, even if my scheme is never widely adopted and so we don't get its additional benefit, there's already a very substantial win from wider adoption of the rapid add/remove feature.

I've spent a lot of time tracking down script lag in sims lately, and I really don't think we have much calendar left before everybody notices that scripts just aren't responsive anymore.

(Oh, as to your interest in my collar wearing: I did wear one years ago before RLV was a thing, and I'm an owner on a transparent one an alt wears for testing, although I've never cared nor understood RLV enough to test those functions on him.)

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3 minutes ago, Roxy Couturier said:

So, now I've given you an example of non-D/s use. Can you give me an example of a script emergency that requires immediate detachment that a simple re-log and turning off RLV or even just waiting on one's home sim to be unlocked wouldn't accomplish?

I'm not sure why I'm having such a difficult time conveying this. The reason I care about this feature isn't at all related to an "emergency" that an individual may imagine about adding or removing attachments, it's about the ease of doing so leading folks to reduce their average number of attached scripts. If it's not a pain to add them, then they can take them off more of the time. (I don't think I used the word "emergency" but I may have mentioned "crisis" -- which reasonably characterizes the growing problem of "spikey" teleport-in script lag on a whole host of regions that never had it before.)

That said, I do have to think about locking being used to prevent accidental detachment. At first glance, I'd suppose the locking requires some setup -- putting some attached items in a specific folder or somehow designating them as locked -- so whatever that setup involves, couldn't one just not add those designated items to the Favorite Wearables folder? (I guess in Catznip the Quick Preferences: Folder can be user-designated at any time, so... I'm actually not sure that's significant, though.)

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4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm not sure why I'm having such a difficult time conveying this. The reason I care about this feature isn't at all related to an "emergency" that an individual may imagine about adding or removing attachments, it's about the ease of doing so leading folks to reduce their average number of attached scripts. If it's not a pain to add them, then they can take them off more of the time. (I don't think I used the word "emergency" but I may have mentioned "crisis" -- which reasonably characterizes the growing problem of "spikey" teleport-in script lag on a whole host of regions that never had it before.)

That said, I do have to think about locking being used to prevent accidental detachment. At first glance, I'd suppose the locking requires some setup -- putting some attached items in a specific folder or somehow designating them as locked -- so whatever that setup involves, couldn't one just not add those designated items to the Favorite Wearables folder? (I guess in Catznip the Quick Preferences: Folder can be user-designated at any time, so... I'm actually not sure that's significant, though.)

Unfortunately you will encounter those who don't care how their script usage affects others. "its my sl I will do what I want"

There is a nostrip feature that can be used to prevent items from being detached, or if accidently detached on sim tp reattached. and when used with outfits can make items reattach after the outfit is changed. you simply add (nostrip) to the end of the items name if moddable or the end of a folders name with that item in it. it was sort of added to fix traps/devices that would just strip everything, causing the user to default back down to the default naked ll body breaking the immersion of the scene.

depending upon the collar or item used it may even have a .core or .naked or similar named folder that keeps everything in that folder attached on outfit changes and then just adds to those items. allowing full changes of the outfit without affecting the body, hands, feet, hair, alpha or whatever else might want to be kept on all the time of the avatar if is setup correctly.

through the proper use of .outfits or how ever the collar calls it, a user could set up various outfits with and without the scripted items as needed.  but access to that can be blocked by the collar/item by the owner of the collar/item. so again it comes down to communication between the sub and their owner on why access to such items is needed at that time or not. Unfortunately there is a lot of Dom/me's that think it's totally their choice only about what the sub has access too so will block access to the dress feature in the collar/item/device for one reason or another.

44 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I did kinda bury one big reason in a footnote to an earlier post in this thread, and only just referenced it again a few minutes ago: I kinda stumbled on an approach that could very dramatically reduce the script count of non-HUD attachments. But it only achieves real savings if the HUDs that push on-demand scripts to wearables are themselves only attached when the product needs scripted manipulation. And, of course, scripters would need to learn and adopt the approach, which is a bit... intricate.

So that's my "vested interest" (not as if I have a patent or anything, but potentially some bragging rights). The thing is, even if my scheme is never widely adopted and so we don't get its additional benefit, there's already a very substantial win from wider adoption of the rapid add/remove feature.

I've spent a lot of time tracking down script lag in sims lately, and I really don't think we have much calendar left before everybody notices that scripts just aren't responsive anymore.

(Oh, as to your interest in my collar wearing: I did wear one years ago before RLV was a thing, and I'm an owner on a transparent one an alt wears for testing, although I've never cared nor understood RLV enough to test those functions on him.)

but you see an owner could block that hud/attachment from being used. or prefer their sub to use specific other items that might not use your newly considered idea. A lot of Dom/me's do not like complicated or intricate methods of accomplishing things in rlv. So though it might be beneficial not everyone or even a majority will probably ever use it. Not saying you shouldn't still continue with the attempted development of it.  It just make take time before it would be widely accepted as the new norm of doing scripts in items if ever.

yes there is a benefit of the use of the favorites folder, it allows quick add and removal and even I had no knowledge about it and its use for some time until I learned about it by accident. someone should ever make a yt video about it perhaps and describe its location or use in the various viewers that might have the feature so others can learn about it and how to use it besides this post. it was in part the original reason for being included in the post a sort of 'looky here' and then leaving it up to those who wanted to use it or not. it is why I didn't first mention about the way to block it, just that it could be.

unfortunately there will always be lag in sl at certain points and as things become more complex it will only get worse. it would require an entirely new rewrite of the viewer and the sim and how it process's or limits or uses scripts or possibly off-loads some of that process time to the users client, such as how many fps games work. where scripts are run client side for the most part and that information is sent to the server and then shared with all other clients in the server. a form of distributed computing perhaps.for even your idea is just a stop-gap temporary fix at best. but I don't really see that ever happening.

It is sort of interesting that this particular thing is the most talked about from the entire post. just shows how threads evolve over the course of the discussion in them.

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24 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That said, I do have to think about locking being used to prevent accidental detachment. At first glance, I'd suppose the locking requires some setup -- putting some attached items in a specific folder or somehow designating them as locked -- so whatever that setup involves, couldn't one just not add those designated items to the Favorite Wearables folder? (I guess in Catznip the Quick Preferences: Folder can be user-designated at any time, so... I'm actually not sure that's significant, though.)

That would just ensure it's only used in edge case for the RLV-D/s community. We aren't kinky and trussed up all the time. Those big shopping events or vanilla concerts? we already de-script those script heavy items for those, as any other responsible community already does. WE (or at least the people I associate with) actually do pass that information along to new community members when needed.

The locking is already a function of RLV you don't need to rethink it. You're looking for a tech solution to a social problem.

What I would rather see is FS or one of the TPVs add separate, concurrent AOs to the one they already have. Adding a face and hand AO to cycle through those animations like it does for stands and movement. Then I wouldn't need to wear my Maitreya hud or my head animation hud. I'd only need to wear them when I want to change my look. Due to the built in AO, i don't wear a separate scripted AO anymore. That would decrease script lag across the board.

That's the sort of tech solution we need, ways to no longer -need- the scripty, lag inducing huds.

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21 hours ago, Roxy Couturier said:

You're looking for a tech solution to a social problem.

No kidding. Also, my RL doors have locks. (That response isn't original with me; it comes from when the "tech solutions to social problems rarely work" thing passed through the IETF listserv in 2002. It was self-evidently silly back then, too, but it's still widely repeated, I have no idea why.)

I'll just respond to the AO thing here because it's widely thought that scripted AOs still consume a lot of script resources, but that hasn't really been a major problem (aside from a few very badly scripted exceptions) since the Franimation AO back in the mid-2000s, which was further streamlined in ZHAO-II. Then, in 2013, the Lab introduced llGet-, -Set-, and -ResetAnimationOverride() functions which make AO scripts even lighter weight. In the interim at least one TPV (Firestorm) introduced an unscripted viewer-side AO which still works, but doesn't really make that much difference anymore.

I sometimes still use an old ZHAO-II, from before the -Override() functions were introduced, and I suspect that logic is still used in some current special-purpose animation attachments, so I took some measurements:

μs attachment
16 ZHAO-II
17 CATWA HUD Master M S v3.2
2 CATWA HUD Animations M v3.2
11 CATWA HEAD Dino v3.2
1 CATWA EYES RIG Dino v3.2
7 Slink Physique Male Utilities HUD
37 total of Slink Physique Male body, hands, feet

So, compared to the very efficient CATWA animations HUD, it does seem worth upgrading that old ZHAO-II, but it wouldn't make as much difference as using the quick attach/detach feature to remove that CATWA master HUD (and the Slink Utilities HUD) when not being used.

I was too lazy to find clothing with resizer / retexturizer scripts, and it's not really fair to point to all those Slink mesh attachments because other bodies aren't that fragmented, but those (and the CATWA Head and Eyes themselves) are the kind of items that could have their scripts populated on-demand from HUDs managed by the quick attach/detach viewer feature.

Anyway, a lot more data could be collected, but I kinda doubt anybody in this thread is all that interested.

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

(...)
so any dumbinants that like to
(...)
so any dumbinants that like to
(...)
so any dumbinants that like to
(...)

You used that same phrase three times on your original post, did you just learn the word "dumbinant" by any chance?
All the "exploits" you've mentioned are well know, for many years, not limited to Firestorm and there are a LOT more than those you listed.

Guess what? Nobody cares, they're irrelevant.

It seems to me you come from a place of deep seeded mistrust and very little confidence.
I recommend you find better company or stop being so paranoid what someone else might be doing behind your back, ideally both in either order.

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15 hours ago, Dean Haystack said:

It seems to me you come from a place of deep seeded mistrust and very little confidence.

 

It seems to me that you come from a place where the moon orbits a lot quicker than it does on Earth because this thread was done almost four months ago and here that's a pretty long time.

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Today I learned some people think they can use SL scripts to force compatibility in a relationship.

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I can just remember a few things that RLV made possible which were replaced by other viewer functions. One was a system of photographic filters which now seem to be handled by Windlight.

And, as long as everybody involved is having fun, RLV does have a place in sexual roleplay. I can think of things I would agree to do.

There are a few things I can think of where RLV can usefully automate something, but somebody could do the same thing manually.

What I would run away from, very very fast, would be the sort of guy who can't ask, who can't communicate, and thinks RLV is all that's needed.

It's like the AFK places I see. What's the point? The big feature of SL is being able to communicate with other players. If you don't want to do that, why not download a porn video?

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