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Emuna Zamani

Is Body-Shaming aThing in SL or Are Some Just Too Sensitive?

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On 1/2/2019 at 1:28 PM, Syo Emerald said:

I know what a thigh gap is, but the connection to this particular shape in SL is very very thin. This shape included multiple attributes, which had nothing to do with the thight gap and the only the only common theme (a gap between the legs) is above and behond anything that would even be possible in RL. Not even plastic surgery could give you the gap those shapes had. Nobody wants to look like that in RL and nobody can. This shape is a made-up construct.

That wasn't what I was saying and it is not thin. Fashion and avatar appearance mimic real life fashion and trends, a few years ago having a thigh gap was a thing in real life and some people in SL mimicked it. So did the frowny, disaffected face too. So some people decided they can move their hip sliders around and thigh gap. Were some of them extreme? Sure. Not all of them were. As the trend died down in real life, it also did in SL. Apparently some people did want to look like that in SL, which was what I was talking about. People did want them, which is why it was a thing. It's not a made up construct, it's SL taking a real life thing and making it it's own, which I said SL tends to do. Some clothing can give you a thigh gap and some poses can also. I'm not talking about how a thing in SL would look in real life, I'm talking about a real life thing in SL. They are not the same. I'm pretty sure not too many people want to actually look like their avatar in real life. I'm talking about people taking their ideal and putting it in SL, since SL is a vehicle to do that.

On 1/2/2019 at 1:28 PM, Syo Emerald said:

Are you kidding me?! Do you even know how those shapes looked like? They didn't look like a real life teen starving to have their legs not touch each other. They got this nickname because they literally looked like their owners were constantly sitting on an invisible pony. It has absolutly zero connection to young girls with eating disorders.

No, I'm not, kidding you. Thigh gaps aren't just a teen thing, there are plenty of grown women that strive for it still. THAT was why I said google it because it relates to body image. This isn't about what it looks like to you, it's what it looks like to them. Plenty of people in SL call it....a thigh gap. Still don't see the connection?

On 1/2/2019 at 1:28 PM, Syo Emerald said:

No, I didn't. Not even in the slightest. That particular shape was a fashion trend in a virtual world. And its save to say the people who used it aren't all teenage girls trying to starve themselves in RL, because Social Media told them a thigh gap is the most important thing.

Way to strawman me again, you skipped over the part where I said it was wish fulfillment when you quoted me. Now we're back to SL mimicking real life fashion and trends. It was a trend in real life and it became a trend in SL. What I'm saying is some people in SL gave themselves a thigh gap because they felt it was desirable. Like I said, not every woman can have it because it's anatomically impossible for every woman to have it. In SL, all you have to do is adjust your sliders and you have it. You said you knew what it was and where it's from, but somehow you can't make the connection between a real life thing and SL wish fulfillment? I said real life weight issues younger girls have, I didn't necessarily mean teens, I meant it in the sense it's a younger thing, though not necessarily. I said wish fulfillment, how some people are linked to their avatars. So yes, people chose to look like that, for a variety of reasons one of them is: They desired to look like that, they desired to have....a thigh gap.

 

On 1/2/2019 at 1:28 PM, Syo Emerald said:

My point still stands: This shape appeared in fashion blogs and on vendors and people copied and brought it. There is absolutly nothing of higher individuality in that. They are an expression of taste. It came and it went away again. Just like everyone being a Neko or everyone being a tan giant with lots of bling jewlery...or all the other bigger and smaller trends SL avatars have seen.

You completely missed the point you made for me.The point was: Taste is relative and some people here made it crystal clear how they feel about certain looks.... a lot. Not everybody logs on here to be an individual and if you believe that, you're deluding yourself. A lot of people come here to belong and to follow trends. You saying things like "If people..."and "SL wouldn't be influenced by trends" shows seem to want to have some sort of control over how people look. It's not about what you want and you can't change people and what they want. It seems to me you want people to want what you want and well if enough people do what you want...it becomes a trend!  Just accept you have no control over how people make their avatars.  Things like "Invisible pony rider hips" is one of them. 

When whoever comes here and ke-ke's about someone having a thigh gap on their avatar forgets is there's a person on the other end of those avatars, even if it's for a moment. It's really amusing to me how people pick and chose when they want to apply "Your world, your imagination". It's one thing to do it in IMs with your friend where nobody but you can see it. It's another thing to post it in a forum where ANYBODY can read it and the way it's talked about it's--shaming.  While I'm sure 90% percent of the people that get made fun of here would tell someone making fun of them how they feel about their opinion and which hole they can stick it in. I'm not talking about them, this topic was never about them. This is about the ones that DO have body image issues or whatever kind of issues they have in real life and log on SL to feel better about themselves.  Then they decide to take a look at the official SL forums and they see a fair bit of opinion about what they may actually look like. Just admit it; it could be hurtful.  

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3 hours ago, Talligurl said:

that means I was a failure at trying to be beautiful. 

No, it means the other person failed as an empathic and compassionate human being.

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Posted (edited)

@janetosilio What we mean by invisible pony rider is no RL thigh gap.. These people set their hip width to max, saddle bags to max, love handles to minimum, Boobs to max, and really looked inhuman.. 

At the time, sadly looking back on it, we would indeed body shame them in the forums. There were dozens of picture threads about it.. I sadly admit to participating. This is an example of what we mean.  

 

invisible pony rider.jpg

 

This is what she would look like IRL...

 

invisible pony rider rl.jpg

Do you see the difference between that and RL thigh gap. I have two daughters, one 14 with thigh gap and one 16 without. Both are beautiful, neither look like that... 

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

What we mean by invisible pony rider is no RL thigh gap.. These people set their hip width to max, saddle bags to max, love handles to minimum, Boobs to max, and really looked inhuman.. 

At the time, sadly looking back on it, we would indeed body shame them in the forums. There were dozens of picture threads about it.. I sadly admit to participating. This is an example of what we mean.  

I get that. I’m just pointing out what it was.

Edited by janetosilio
We don’t need to see the pictures again

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8 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

No, it means the other person failed as an empathic and compassionate human being.

That is not going to be the way it feels to me in the moment though.

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This isn’t really a problem unique to SL; it’s an internet problem.

They way I choose to deal with people who use avatars or body-shapes that fall outside what I find aesthetically-pleasing is to say nothing and let them happily do what gives them joy.

When someone makes what appears to be an innocent mis-statement; I try to let it roll off or perhaps IM them with a gentle “not cool”.

When I run foul of someone who makes the choice to be aggressively hateful; mute and de-render works wonders.

So long as I have 100% control over who I allow into my Second Life; I can afford to be tolerant of people who are a little “different” in their social skills; I won’t have to hear from the mean ones twice 🙂

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Ok, I'm just done with this. I can't deal talking to people that contradict themself from one post to another. I can't deal with the hyproctic behavior spread here and I can't deal with people who put a living human being, that can't "log off" in real life or play with some sliders, to a virtual barbie doll...because that last thing is something I find highly offensive.

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using the term "body shaming" in sl in no way lessens the meaning in rl.

if i start spewing out racist words in sl , does that change how offensive they are in rl?

body shaming in rl or sl comes from the same root cause, people trying to hurt someone else , just because they think they can get away with it.

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4 hours ago, Talligurl said:

That is not going to be the way it feels to me in the moment though.

I apologize for pointing out the fault isn't yours.

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28 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I apologize for pointing out the fault isn't yours.

LOL, no you don't need  to do that,  you are totally right, it is just that I know that in the moment it often doesn't feel that way. Those uncaring guilty people, do cause hurt whether they are body shaming in RL or avatar shaming in SL. No matter what you call it, it happens in SL,  and it can hurt people.

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37 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

LOL, no you don't need  to do that,  you are totally right, it is just that I know that in the moment it often doesn't feel that way. Those uncaring guilty people, do cause hurt whether they are body shaming in RL or avatar shaming in SL. No matter what you call it, it happens in SL,  and it can hurt people.

That's my point. ;)

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Posted (edited)

I didn't read the whole thread, but you cannot body shame in SL because everything about the sl body can be changed instantly. Body shaming is only a thing irl, and that's because you cannot change things about your rl body instantly.

You can make fun of someone's shape, but that's a shape they chose, so you're shaming their tastes more than anything. 

Edited by purrrkitten
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6 hours ago, purrrkitten said:

I didn't read the whole thread, but you cannot body shame in SL because everything about the sl body can be changed instantly. Body shaming is only a thing irl, and that's because you cannot change things about your rl body instantly.

You can make fun of someone's shape, but that's a shape they chose, so you're shaming their tastes more than anything. 

So, because they can instantly change what YOU think is wrong about THEIR body it's not body shaming? What the hell kind of twisted logic is that? 

"I only insulted you and belittled you infront of this crowd because of how you made yourself. If you had made a better body I wouldn't have said anything."

"Well you see, your honor, she was dressed provocatively. If she had been dress modestly i would never have cat called her her." 

Both of those are victim blaming. You are part of the problem. What gives you or anyone the right to say a GAWD DAMN thing about someone else's choices? How bout this, keep your yap shut. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, because they can instantly change what YOU think is wrong about THEIR body it's not body shaming? What the hell kind of twisted logic is that? 

"I only insulted you and belittled you infront of this crowd because of how you made yourself. If you had made a better body I wouldn't have said anything."

"Well you see, your honor, she was dressed provocatively. If she had been dress modestly i would never have cat called her her." 

Both of those are victim blaming. You are part of the problem. What gives you or anyone the right to say a GAWD DAMN thing about someone else's choices? How bout this, keep your yap shut. 

What in the world???

When did I ever say I have ever said anything to anyone about their avatar?

I mind my own business. How someone chooses to look in SL is their choice.

If I like someone's avi, I will compliment them. If I don't like their avi, I don't say anything. 

Genuinely confused as to why I'm getting attacked for something I've never done. 

Edited by purrrkitten
.

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30 minutes ago, purrrkitten said:

What in the world???

When did I ever say I have ever said anything to anyone about their avatar?

I mind my own business. How someone chooses to look in SL is their choice.

If I like someone's avi, I will compliment them. If I don't like their avi, I don't say anything. 

Genuinely confused as to why I'm getting attacked for something I've never done. 

You have difficulty understanding examples? 

You said it's not possible to body shame someone in SL because they can change what the shamer thinks is wrong.. That is flawed logic and blaming the victim. 

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I think some people need to remember that just because something can happen, Doesn't always mean We should do it. Especially regarding the argument that X thing regarding avatar appearance cannot happen because. "You can just change it instantly!"

 

For example, My avatar reflects the type of body I cannot currently physically have,  an Androgynous form that alleviates the Gender Dysphoria I have until I can complete my transition rl-wise. Sure, I could change in order to avoid Crop-top hell(other V-tech/Maitreya users will understand this) and  people who  belittle my sl appearance. But why the heck should I when it reflects who I am and who I want to be perfectly? Especially once I figure out how to get my chubbiness and that look in one avatar.

 

and dang right am I gonna call it bodyshaming and be pissed if some snot decides that this expression of myself is something hideous or other vulgar words just because it doesn't meet their standards. or more commonly: Get harassment for it.

It it looks like a duck, Quack likes a  duck, etc. 

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3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You have difficulty understanding examples? 

You said it's not possible to body shame someone in SL because they can change what the shamer thinks is wrong.. That is flawed logic and blaming the victim. 

It is not possible to "body shame" in SL, simply because body here is just another piece of clothing or shoes, something you chose to wear based on own choices, tastes or beliefs. Quite different than RL body that nature gave you, don't you think? Now if it's a bad taste to shame someone's clothes is another thing, but it's most certainly not a RL body shaming, not even close. And same valid for lots of other things. Making fun of someone in RL because they are bald after some illness/chemo/etc is pretty low, making a bit of fun of someone who mislicked (or SL did SL things and ghosted attachments on TP) and detached their hair in SL is not even close to that.

 

But yeah, there's a lot of very sensitive people in SL and online in general. Sometimes I wonder how they are able to be online at all, because most of the time nothing and no one stops a random person from another side of the world from telling those people everything they think about them, their family and life choices as well as simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

But there's also a lot of people who like to assume a lot, then put words into your mouth and play the victim role based on that. Just as a recent example of my own: I've been called a racist because I didn't want to interact (aside of chatting) with weird looking green demon avi. After around 10 minutes of random-ish talk he asked if I'd like to do something else, I told him that "I don't play with non-human avis" (literally, word to word). And then it quickly went to how I must be a racist (and how I wouldn't play with him if he was using black or asian avi too), fascist and must be living in my mother's basement, never seen the world etc. Probably more, but I blocked him after 3 minutes of that. It wasn't first and most certainly not the last time someone tried to play the victim card like that on me.

As for this topic in general. I personally never "shame" someone's choices myself, not even because I'm that sweet and nice person, but just because I don't really care about random people, either in RL or in SL. Want to look this or that - by all means, do so, just without me as I have right to not like them based on my own preferences. But if some people insist on knowing why I decided to not interact with them I usually tell them why and yes, in most cases it's because I didn't like their avatar, profile or the way they chat. I'd like to believe I also do it in polite way, but despite asking themselves (in those cases), some people can't take criticism at all and get angry because (oh the horror) someone random didn't approve their choices of body shape, clothes or unreadable unicode font they chose to "communicate" with me.

And yes, I'm well aware my avi/shape/fashion choices are not everyone's cup of tea either and it's fine, only difference is that I don't care what anyone think about my choices, it's their right to like or not like them. So my advice to people who feel bad about such comments - just ignore them. Can't please everyone, nor should you even try to. Most important you should be happy with your choices, look and style. If you want to extend it a bit futher, then take constructive criticism from your close friends or family, but not more than that. Don't let random people to spoil your mood and day, regardless of whatever they think about you.

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3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You have difficulty understanding examples? 

You said it's not possible to body shame someone in SL because they can change what the shamer thinks is wrong.. That is flawed logic and blaming the victim. 

No, I said it's because how you look in SL is 100% your choice, therefore "shaming" shouldn't bother you. If you're happy, why do you care what some random on SL thinks? I never said to change your avi's look for anyone.

I've had people say mean things about my SL fashion choices, but it didn't bother me because that's how I wanted to look and I liked it.

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Posted (edited)

Hi, this was a huge thread, so I did not get to read all of it yet, so in case this was said, I apologise. 

I think that it is not so much 'Body Shaming' as a term if people don't relate as closely to their avatars as others ( I myself scream if I fall off something, so definitely an extension of myself ) as it can sometimes be 'BODIES shaming' I have seen people ask in other places what body to get, what is suggested and it can often lead to at least a dozen or so people reacting in a way that suggests if you do not get the particular type they said you are wrong, ugly, ignorant, insognificant and every other thing they can think of. I have seen group chats do the same where someone that was very happy with her look ended up feeling so beaten down that she went to get a different body to fit in. I have seen people tell people that joining Second Life and not heading straight for the bodies is the wrong thing to do. 

Like in the past when someone would ask you day one how to get a job in SL  and as someone who was not seeking employment here but started working her second day, I would encourage people to not start working straight away, because you miss out on so many new user experiences. The same can be said for your look.

I have often even before mesh told people that were poking fun at someones bling or flexi or whatever they are wearing that EVERYONE should be able to join Second Life and have their *****ty school girl moment - I completely understand that is not everyones flavour it is a joke, but I mean if my friend who is the type to not leave her platform without earrings on under hair you can't see your ears with, can spend a day running around the grid as a table with a piece of pie on it, then we should all be able to look and feel how we wish. 

Yes I will admit to telling the same earring wearing pie slice that her arms are looking way too skinny (she was seeing her shape different than anyone else and got a bit slider crazy) but that is concern her clothing straps will slide off :) it is not a judgement on her choices.

That is the biggest part of all of this and the hurting part, Second Life and how we look and choose to spend our time here is a bigger and often more rewarding CHOICE! it is something we have constructed, invested in and made decisions to do and be, so when those choices come under ridicule, it can cut deeper than someone picking on us in RL, in RL we don't always have the same control, but if we made these choices and they come under fire, then maybe we don't make good choices, and then that can open a floodgate of feelings on so many things. 

sorry rambled a bit, but yeah be good to one another ♥

Edited by Sasy Scarborough
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Not everyone is as confident about their choices or have as much self-esteem about themselves to just shrug off people taking time out of their day just to be horrible to them without having feelings about it.  It is bullying and bullies often say their victims "are being too sensitive", "it shouldn't bother them" or "they ought to toughen up" to justify their behaviour.  Nobody has a right to tell anyone that they are wrong to have feelings about being bullied.

It's great if you personally feel that it doesn't bother you and you can ignore it but nobody should expect everyone else to feel the same way.

Being horrible to people about their personal choices can certainly invoke feelings of shame in a person for having their preferences.
My vote on the OP is that it is in the broad category of bullying and could be definitely described as "shaming" if it makes you feel that way.

These are our avatars which are our representation in a virtual world, a virtual body, the concept is very well entrenched therefore it is quite reasonable to call it "virtual body shaming" or "body shaming" in the context of the virtual world.

I prefer bullying as the term.

 

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1 hour ago, purrrkitten said:

No, I said it's because how you look in SL is 100% your choice, therefore "shaming" shouldn't bother you. If you're happy, why do you care what some random on SL thinks? I never said to change your avi's look for anyone.

I've had people say mean things about my SL fashion choices, but it didn't bother me because that's how I wanted to look and I liked it.

Yay for you, so glad you can just ignore bullies. Not everyone can. How one looks in RL is also 100% their choice. Diet, exercise, and taking care of yourself are all choices. But people still shame and bully, don't they? Why is it water off a ducks back in SL but not in RL? Bullying is bullying no matter the medium. Should the kids that get bullied so much online that they take their lives have just sucked it up? Stop excusing bullies. It doesn't matter what medium they do it in, it's wrong. 

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11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Yay for you, so glad you can just ignore bullies. Not everyone can. How one looks in RL is also 100% their choice. Diet, exercise, and taking care of yourself are all choices. But people still shame and bully, don't they? Why is it water off a ducks back in SL but not in RL? Bullying is bullying no matter the medium. Should the kids that get bullied so much online that they take their lives have just sucked it up? Stop excusing bullies. It doesn't matter what medium they do it in, it's wrong. 

Excusing bullies? Oh, boy.

I recommend reading comprehension classes...and a therapist.

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I think bullying is a better term too, but there are also different definitions of bullying.

Someone may think an IM from a stranger telling them they have an embarrassing glitch in their appearance is bullying. Someone else may only think it's bullying if it's in open chat in front of others. Plus we really can't tell what people in chat mean - it may be well-intentioned advice badly worded, or language differences.

Anyway, we all know the drill - if it's really bothering us, ignore/mute/report.

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Actually, bullys and their immense lack of self confidence can be very entertaining - The biggest fun i had was "having fun" in a crowded public adult place with a friend who used an old system male avatar. The Xcite and Aeros guys couldnt do nothing but raging about me being with that "noob".

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