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Well, if this thread has done nothing else, it has done a good job of where we are as a larger culture in needing to address and take things seriously. A lot of the usual stuff has popped up, like:

15 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

I read an interesting comment piece lately (by a feminist no less)... it suggested that replacing the casting couch of patriachy with the current "destroy the males" of feminism was just "same crap different leader".

A classic nonsequitor since (1) no one was talking about destroying the males, (2) feminism is not about destroying the males, and (3) it's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. But this kind of defensive reaction comes up all the time and makes it darn near impossible to have a serious discussion.

It's more like a bad joke. Sorry, but saying that rape is bad certainly does not destroy men.

And, of course, this type of missing the point:

On 12/24/2018 at 10:37 AM, AyelaNewLife said:

Emphasis mine. No one has ever suggested that anyone should have this done to them without their consent. Indeed there is no mechanical way to force people into this sort of thing, as even with RLV collars you always have the options of logging off and disabling the collar. We're talking about consenting adults that consent to this activity (hint: it's not non-consensual). You're straw-manning a non-existent scenario.

The whole point is that some types of behavior aren't acceptable and people wanting to do it doesn't make it okay.

I'd like to say that only in SL would we see people defending rape. But I've seen and heard enough real life comments about the same to know that there are quite a few people out there who think rape in real life is just fine. Nevertheless, rape is not okay. It is not a game. And transplanting it into SL doesn't make it so.

Merry Christmas to all.

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7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Oh yes, I'm quite aware of that, and I'm also quite aware of exactly who you are referring to, but it's the elephant in the room no one is allowed name, unless they want to be accused of the things I already mentioned.

Merry Christmas Chibiusa, you are one of the few people in here I actually miss in my self imposed exile.

You too! Hope your having an awesome day 😁. I'm watching my niece and nephew open Christmas presents. And yeah, I was thinking the other day that I hadn't seen you in a while. You should come back!!

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IMG-2955.jpg

Totally off topic here. Is it me or does my nephews Stretch Armstrong look how you would imagine a Donald Trump action figure to look 😂😂

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8 hours ago, Garvin Twine said:

I heard that beast play is banned

I searched through the TOS and all linked material and can't find it listed as prohibited.  Like 'rape RP', it might be extremely disgusting, but it does not appear to be against the TOS.  Granted, there are quite a few linked documents, so I may have missed something.

 

 

8 hours ago, Garvin Twine said:

Misogyne clubs and parcels.

Here some other group examples .

The problem with the groups listed is that they are not necessarily advocating for the death of women or violence against women just for being women - i.e they are not necessarily depicting HATRED of the 'gender'.  Instead they are stating that women are of lower status than men - and like it or not, there are still civilizations in this world that believe that.  Are you going to tell someone that they cannot RP their home country, as it exists now?  The posted statements about women in those group descriptions are no different than the actual laws in some countries.  Reality in this world is horrid in some places, but is it reality.  My bet is that is how LL sees it and thus it is not against the TOS.  

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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1 hour ago, Female Winslet said:

The whole point is that some types of behavior aren't acceptable and people wanting to do it doesn't make it okay.

I'd like to say that only in SL would we see people defending rape. But I've seen and heard enough real life comments about the same to know that there are quite a few people out there who think rape in real life is just fine. Nevertheless, rape is not okay. It is not a game. And transplanting it into SL doesn't make it so.

 

And then we better ban all the combat sims, because war is bad.

Seriously, what makes it so difficult for many in this thread to distinguish between reality and play? Or should all roleplay or games in general be cleansed of everything, that would be bad in reality? Should the furry haters get a say in this, too? Because to them, every furry is sexually attracted to animals. So lets ban furries, because real life animal abuse exist and some of them say its okay to get down and dirty with their dog.

 

 

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"A puritan is one who lives in fear that somewhere, somehow, someone may be having fun".  (after H.L. Mencken)

Happy holidays to all.

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4 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Governance is our judge, jury and executioner. All we can do is report specific cases of this when we see it, and accept that the Lab, and not us, have the final word.

I'd say LL do care, they have just placed the bar in a different place to one's own expectations, or more likely the ARs they are getting are low quality, and don't give the Governance Linden much to work on.

Governance is overworked at the best of times, and much of what we report does seem to be ignored. But we don't know the full story, they are over worked, and they are human --- and on top of that we don't know if our poorly written complaint about some incel group is lost in all the he-said-she-said drama that is clogging the queue or just deemed unworthy.

 

Eh, an overt hate speech group that goes out of its way to make the point that it isn't roleplaying or fantasy doesn't need a beautifully crafted, high-quality AR report. That's a pretty sorry excuse. 

A company the size of LL will find the resources to moderate things that it prioritises, especially over the course of numerous years. Pretty sure it does a fair job of preventing child porn. If it has decided that full on miosgynistic hate speech is fair game, well, I can't change that but that doesn't make it right. Still wonder how long those groups would last if the word "women" was substituted with "blacks" or "Jews".

The world of freedom will not come crashing down around us if LL grew a spine and declared its product a no-platform zone for clear hate speech.

 

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5 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

absurd, the ones that made the protest are totally out of context, didn't and don't understand the origin of zwarte piet, they only use it to spend their empty life on cost of dutch society and making a childrens event to hell for everybody.
Those idiots even promoted action against the official celebrations, publicly calling to make terroristic attacks that kids would be under blood, flesh and bone remains after the event.!

It is clearly completely reprehensible to use such tactics to enforce this change. Surely you don't think anyone on here would disagree? I believe LL is being lazy, cowardly and just plain wrong in not taking action against hate speech groups that have been around for years, but that quite obviously does not give me the right to firebomb its offices.

It doesn't, however, make the racist character/hate speech itself right. Nor does it mean that a private company is obliged to make the doll or give platform to the hate.

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Hmm so instead taking other people's word for it. I decided to go and research Zwarte Piet. Besides the fact that some may find black face offensive. I really don't see anything too racist about the character itself. He was a black guy who depending on which era you look at was considered anything from a saint to a devil. He came from Spain and gave out sweets, helped santa clause deal out the rewards and punishments for good and bad children and is thought to originate from Odins black ravens which is also where they think Santa originated from (Odin). Taking the story in this sense I don't see anything racist really about the character. Dressing up as him with black face....can be taken offensively but I'm not sure that's not the intention. It seems to be to celebrate him rather than insult him. It definitely doesn't seem to have the same intention behind it as say.....those who once donned black face for comical effect. It's a tricky one because the intention in itself doesn't appear to be intended as a racial insult but at the same time due to other incidents in history involving black face it's going to be taken as that. Idk.. 

Edited by chibiusa Ling
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It's my fault that Zwarte Piet has become part of the discussion. I was trying to make the point that a private company is not obliged to host/produce offensive content. I asked whether people would be offended by, for example, a company choosing not to produce a racist doll. Since some people seemed to be offended by the idea of LL removing hate groups from SL, because free speech.

Of course someone thought of Zwarte Piet. I should have realised, especially as I walked out of a cabaret show in Spain earlier this year when a performer came on in blackface. I know it is not seen the same way on mainland Europe as it is in the UK (obviously!), but I don't believe that makes it OK, and I don't wish to participate in it. 

Ultimately, though, Piet is not the issue. Even if one could prove that that particular character is as completely inoffensive as Winnie the Pooh, and every single person who opposes his portrayal is a violent sociopath, and no wider blackface context makes any difference, it's still a separate issue as to whether LL is obliged to host groups that are dedicated to hate speech, not consensual role-play. It is not. Tbh, it's not even obliged to host the RP groups. As a private company, it can choose what it hosts and produces. I realise that it chooses to allow these hate groups to stand, and that I need to accept that if I wish to use SL. But that doesn't mean it's right, or that no distinction can be drawn between hate speech and role-play.

Edited by Amina Sopwith

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49 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

declared its product a no-platform zone for clear hate speech.

Federal laws (since the 1940s) and laws of the state of California have already done that for them. 

All anyone can do is report it to LL when they witness what they believe to be hate speech. It's up to LL to do something about it and avoid criminal and civil courts. 

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1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Federal laws (since the 1940s) and laws of the state of California have already done that for them. 

All anyone can do is report it to LL when they witness what they believe to be hate speech. It's up to LL to do something about it and avoid criminal and civil courts. 

For sure. I just wish that they would.

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The US laws around hate speech vs freedom of speech mostly come down to whether or not someone is inciting violence.  If someone is just running around saying that women, black, jews, whatever group are inferior, they are allowed to do that.  We may not like it, but it is allowed.  How do you think the KKK is allowed to continue their rallies?

Now, LL being a private company can choose to allow or disallow any action or talk that is allowed by RL laws.  They choose to be very, very lenient and mostly hands off primarily because, as others have mentioned, restricting things becomes a very slippery slope.

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3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The US laws around hate speech vs freedom of speech mostly come down to whether or not someone is inciting violence.  If someone is just running around saying that women, black, jews, whatever group are inferior, they are allowed to do that.  We may not like it, but it is allowed.  How do you think the KKK is allowed to continue their rallies?

Now, LL being a private company can choose to allow or disallow any action or talk that is allowed by RL laws.  They choose to be very, very lenient and mostly hands off primarily because, as others have mentioned, restricting things becomes a very slippery slope.

Precisely. 1sm084thumbsup.gif.970c5ad0e70bebeb2d6327afb7411a0d.gif

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Hoping people did have a nice Christmas, even if you do see me as your enemy which I'm not lol! 

P.s the selective people doing laugh emojis on mine, Seres, and Bliss's posts, and liking each others stuff doesn't bother me nor make me doubt myself lol. Sorry if I burst your bubble(s) on that one. 😊

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8 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Who decides what is acceptable and what is not? I personally think abortion is murder, should simulated abortion be banned based on my opinion that it is wrong? 

Ok your point is understood. But the topic in the first place was about rape rp in SL. There's so many topics that could be had about what we think is wrong or right, likely be never ending though. If you feel abortion rp in SL is a problem then thats fine to speak up. Butt doesn't mean to say we can't keep on topic about this issue? 

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9 minutes ago, SteffiiSugabum said:

Ok your point is understood. But the topic in the first place was about rape rp in SL. There's so many topics that could be had about what we think is wrong or right, likely be never ending though. If you feel abortion rp in SL is a problem then thats fine to speak up. Butt doesn't mean to say we can't keep on topic about this issue? 

The topic wasn't about whether non-consent roleplay is a good thing or not; but whether it should be banned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread has indicated that this kind of roleplay is bad; just most think that people should be allowed to do that bad thing with others that share their interests. Bringing up other things that some people think is bad but most people don't think should be banned is still on topic, it's just an analogy to help you to see their point of view.

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A side note that's related to this topic: the search function incentivises sims to keyword spam to get exposure. That spam usually contains totally irrelevant words that can lead to some pretty hilarious search results; but one thing I dislike is the use of the word "rape" as part of the keyword spam for so many adult sims. Sims that have rules banning non-consent roleplay, yet still use that keyword. It irritates me. It also makes many of the "coping mechanisms" such as searching for "NOT rape" throw out a whole raft of false positives, which is a problem for people with a genuine need to avoid that kind of place. I'd love to see LL's existing false advertising/anti-scam rules (might be MP only) used to crack down on that type of thing, but I doubt it will happen.

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18 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The topic wasn't about whether non-consent roleplay is a good thing or not; but whether it should be banned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread has indicated that this kind of roleplay is bad; just most think that people should be allowed to do that bad thing with others that share their interests. Bringing up other things that some people think is bad but most people don't think should be banned is still on topic, it's just an analogy to help you to see their point of view.

I know what the post was about... I agree that it should be banned even myself. Sorry I didn't meet your standards in my wording lol... Maybe I will try to do all the extreme perfectionism you do yourself. 9_9

Anyway, with both those "topics" then, yeah SL would be a more positive place without these things. Everybody here is aware of what goes on in RL, SL for many is an escape/for entertainment from RL, so with that said, why should something negative be in SL? I can certainly live without it and I'm sure these people "for rape RP" could aswell, and if they can't, that this rape RP is all their SL revolves around, then I don't think its a healthy way to spend time nor is something to turn a blind eye too.

Edited by SteffiiSugabum

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All the victim blamers can ***** off. In the Chicago 1920s sim, they have role play that involved getting gang raped and then getting pregnant and giving birth in a women's shelter. Even choosing not to participate, just checking the thing out, I was subjected to a bunch of abusive language by several male avatars. This should not be allowed just because one has the adult settings on. This should not be part of any "role play" unless it's explicitly spelled out. If they called it "street harassment sim" I wouldn't have a problem. I wouldn't go there. This is a simulation of things that have happened in my real life too many times to count. It's exactly what I come to SL to escape.  I want to know who put this here so I can file a RL restraining order. I did not sit on the pose ball for a second. It's that vile.

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Clearly labeling the sim is one thing that can be done, but if you ask me, these people need to be unmasked. They're worse than all those people who were on Ashley Madison, and they're in the same league as the KKK.

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There are no other role play options available in this historic sim. It's horrible. At least in life there are other options besides being harassed on the street. They're hard to access, but they don't exist in Chicago.

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9 minutes ago, Bliss Rembrandt said:

I want to know who put this here so I can file a RL restraining order.

I'm not sure what you expect to gain from that.  Maybe your lawyer can help you find the correct action for your purpose.

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