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Oct Oyen

Remedies to declining SL?

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Just don't confuse the Baking Powder and Baking Soda! Had someone helping me once mistake the two .... Ended up with inedible pucks.

Edited by Solar Legion
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18 minutes ago, Oct Oyen said:

Does LL read the forums at all?

Yes, from time to time.  I don't think they are able to read 100% all the time but there are several Lindens that read and participate in this forum at least.

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4 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

It is nearing the end of the year and like clockwork yet another doomsayer pretending to give a carp shows up.

What do you do in-world in SL to make it better?

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I read somewhere about how technology is removing incidental human interaction. It said that the small things we have to tolerate, like talking to your neighbor walking by as you check your mailbox, or going to the bank and talking to a bank teller, teach us that we are surrounded by other human beings and we must practice civility and kindness. SL's technology has made it so you need zero interaction with other humans and you don't have to tolerate anyone. It forces you into your own self-chosen cubbyhole. Sure, there are a few people you choose to identify with in your cubbyhole but SL insulates you from everyone else who may be interesting to you but are in their own little world. My point? SL needs to bring back that sense of community. McCuno said it right. SL is too big and the destination links herd you into specific regions. There should be a NEXUS of activity where you can rub shoulders with the goreans, the furries, the clubgoers, the brazilians, and everyone else in SL. A place where you HAVE to go against your will and against what you can tolerate. SL could provide that place of incidental human interactions that we have lost in real life. Wouldn't that be strange? 

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5 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I think part of the problem with retention is that people just trying out SL for the first time have no idea that to enjoy SL you must really invest yourself. You need to know what you enjoy and then go out and find it or make it happen. Too often I hear complaints that SL is too complicated.

It's fine for it to require investment to get the right experience, but you need to get people in here first, and give them enough to be going on, to make them want to make that investment. I'm not technical, as we know, but I was prepared to invest enough in SL to get my experience to the level I wanted it. But if you'd told me from the start that it would take me several months to get to that point, I'd have simply avoided it entirely. I came in because it was new and I was curious. Once inside, there were enough interesting people and enough accessible things to make me want to make more effort. You can't just tell me from the start that it's going to be hard and take ages to get fully into it. You need to give me a bit of a lure and some motivation. 

And if some people say that SL is too complicated to keep them here, then, well, they're right. It's their own experience. It IS too complicated and DOES require too much investment for a lot of people. If those people aren't your target audience, it doesn't matter. If they are, then it's a problem. So who is the target market? And is SL designed for it? Marketed to it?

SL, ideally, should have something for everyone. Different people use it for different things. If I were designing a marketing campaign for it, I'd run a series of ads. I'd have one full of Orcs, fairies, knights and comic book characters saying, "Come for the roleplaying." I'd have one full of technical and completed drawings of different vessels, avatars, buildings and backgrounds, saying. "Come for the creating." Another full of pretty homes, saying, "Come for the property." And so on. And I'd try to find some way of getting noobs into some interesting and accessible areas, at least to start with. It's fine needing some investment but you can't expect people to invest in something when it's not motivating them to do so.
 

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Nostalgia for SL's "good ol' days" masks ways the current environment is superior to all the shady dealings that accompanied the frothy peak. ("Frothy" in a Santorum sort of way.) I remember when a week wouldn't pass without some poor newbie getting scammed by one or another unscrupulous Estate owner, when adfarm scumbags held the Mainland hostage, griefers routinely ravaged the grid crashing sims left and right, and Woodburries and their codependent spandex narcissists battled incessantly for control of Welcome Center incel strongholds.

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

If SL lost some concurrency as a result of all those nitwits drifting elsewhere, SL and its regulars are all the better for it.

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1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

I read somewhere about how technology is removing incidental human interaction. It said that the small things we have to tolerate, like talking to your neighbor walking by as you check your mailbox, or going to the bank and talking to a bank teller, teach us that we are surrounded by other human beings and we must practice civility and kindness. SL's technology has made it so you need zero interaction with other humans and you don't have to tolerate anyone. It forces you into your own self-chosen cubbyhole. Sure, there are a few people you choose to identify with in your cubbyhole but SL insulates you from everyone else who may be interesting to you but are in their own little world. My point? SL needs to bring back that sense of community. McCuno said it right. SL is too big and the destination links herd you into specific regions. There should be a NEXUS of activity where you can rub shoulders with the goreans, the furries, the clubgoers, the brazilians, and everyone else in SL. A place where you HAVE to go against your will and against what you can tolerate. SL could provide that place of incidental human interactions that we have lost in real life. Wouldn't that be strange? 

Well if you want to drive people away sure go with this. I spend all day everyday having to rub shoulders with people I would rather not. I come to SL to relax. Forcing me to spend time with even more idiots than I already have to merely by visiting places where most people are the sort of people I interact with would make me decide that sl is worthless

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1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said:

But if you'd told me from the start that it would take me several months to get to that point, I'd have simply avoided it entirely.

Is it possible that had you had a bit of forewarning that it's not going to be easy, but there are lots of people waiting to help you make the adjustment, that you might have had a better experience? You had the fortitude to stick it out but many do not. I'm just thinking if people had a better understanding of what they will be getting into they wouldn't jump ship so easily.

I agree with prior posts that say there's not one magic bullet that will be the cure all. It certainly takes studying your target market and very precise ad campaigns to get those people to give it a try. Regardless of the approach, there's nothing about SL that's easy. :) 

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

Is it possible that had you had a bit of forewarning that it's not going to be easy, but there are lots of people waiting to help you make the adjustment, that you might have had a better experience? You had the fortitude to stick it out but many do not. I'm just thinking if people had a better understanding of what they will be getting into they wouldn't jump ship so easily.

I agree with prior posts that say there's not one magic bullet that will be the cure all. It certainly takes studying your target market and very precise ad campaigns to get those people to give it a try. Regardless of the approach, there's nothing about SL that's easy. :) 

If it had been sold to me, before I set foot in the place, as being difficult, complicated and requiring a lot of time investment, I simply wouldn't have bothered at all. I'm not a gamer, not technical and I didn't feel any need to "escape RL", which is a very common reason for coming on to SL. I was curious. Immersive online experiences were still very much a novelty back then, and I was intrigued as to what a user-built virtual world would be like. What, I wondered, do people do when they're anonymous and can do anything? The very fact that SL appeared to be a place for anyone and any imagination was what interested me. If I'd been told it was exclusive and you had to earn your wings to enjoy it, I'd have stayed away.

Once inside, I did find it interesting enough to stick around, even with a hot mess of an av. It was RP that hooked me and motivated me to go on the real learning curve. Had I not found that, I'd have disappeared fairly quickly. The number of sex places struck me, at the time, as totally pathetic and quite depressing in a world of infinite possibility, and almost drove me away. (As I got more into RP, I also moved into adult role-play, but I still don't have any time for all the sex clubs and so on.)

I wouldn't use the word "fortitude" about it. To my mind, that and the "have you got what it takes" marketing idea imbue SL residency with a moral value that I simply don't feel it possesses. I don't think it's a character failing to decide that SL is boring, too complicated or too full of weird digital sex places and to invest your time elsewhere. It may be a failing of the game; depends on who it's trying to attract. Who IS the target market?

I got very engaged in SL when my life took a turn that meant I had the time to invest. It hurts to say it, but there CAN be a leeeeetle bit of truth in the "RL loser" stereotype. If you're full of hobbies and places to go and people to see in RL, you are likely not to have the time necessary to invest in SL to make it worthwhile. Now I know the ropes more (except for mesh), I don't need as much time to get something out of it, but my current project of mainland exploration is something I can dip in and out of as I like. It suits my sporadic time inworld.

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Small additional thought: generally, when you're selling something, you don't start with the negatives. You start with the positives and get someone excited and interested enough so that the price feels worth it. They need to know what's in it for them before they're going to consider what they'll pay for it.

For some people, a challenging user experience is a positive, but this seems at odds with SL's inclusive "your world, your imagination" tagline. 

I also think there's a difference between a game that's challenging to play (as in, hard to progress in levels or reach the end), and a game which is hard just to navigate and discover.

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On 22 December 2018 at 11:08 PM, Oct Oyen said:

"SL is dying" is nothing new for those of us who have been around for while.

Then why the hell are you wasting everyone's time telling us again? Unless to boast about how old thus wise you must be for having noticed that it's not 2008 any more and that most of your fellow SecondWave Lastnamers left 10 years ago when they realised they were not going to become RL rich just by playing a "video game".

On 22 December 2018 at 11:08 PM, Oct Oyen said:

I hope to get the conversation started before it's too late.

You are 10 years too late to "remake 2008"...

On 22 December 2018 at 11:08 PM, Oct Oyen said:

What are things LL can do to retain new residents?

A good start wold be to STOP repeatedly telling them that "SL is dying because it's not 2008 anymore"...

On 22 December 2018 at 11:08 PM, Oct Oyen said:

It would be very helpful for LL to create a comprehensive how-to video tutorials.  For building stuff, starting with inworld prims and then move on to open-source software like Blender and Gimp.

What the hell makes you think that there is ANYONE at LL who actually knows all that stuff, let alone has the skills to make worthwhile tutorials about it? Empirical evidence over the last 7 years, based on LL produced content says there isn't.

On 23 December 2018 at 6:09 AM, Oct Oyen said:

historicalconcurrency.png

I notice you don't use the version ofthe chart that shows YOUR generation of SL immigrants arriving, staying for 3 years trying to get rich, then doing SL a huge favour by 90% of them buggering off again...

Probably because the exit of 90% of your peer group dwarfs the figures you do show by more than 5 to 1.

On 23 December 2018 at 5:15 PM, Oct Oyen said:

I believe there's a threshold point, once daily concurrency falls below it. The decline will accelerate exponentially until it bottoms out, if it doesn't bottom through it. It is my hope to get the conversation started and try out different approaches before we hit the threshold point.

Belief has nothing to do with it, the trends in cases like this are well known, and we are NOWHERE near the "threshold" you think exists, as yet, but keep whining about how it's not 2008, and maybe you can scare off a few more people huh?

On 23 December 2018 at 3:13 AM, Oct Oyen said:

I've not been actively participating in SL for some times. Each time I come back from months long break, I notice the world feels a little more emptier.

Awww, poor baby, every time you return from an extended sabbatical, a few more of your old old friends from the old old days are not here, and you NEVER meet anyone under 2 years in SL who isn't an ALT, ewww filthy ALTS, they are not like real people with proper lastnames like you used to get in 2008 when nobody had alts, ever, right?

Meh.

On 23 December 2018 at 3:13 AM, Oct Oyen said:

Anyways, I have no stake in the game. Just hate to see it goes.

Oh? So you DON'T have a store selling stuff on the MP, home & garden mostly, and the complaints that SL doesn't have enough NEW people, wouldn't have anything to do with, oh a drop in the amount of FREE MONEY FROM A VIDEO GAME, that's been coming in recently?

...
 

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Nostalgia for SL's "good ol' days" masks ways the current environment is superior to all the shady dealings that accompanied the frothy peak. ("Frothy" in a Santorum sort of way.) I remember when a week wouldn't pass without some poor newbie getting scammed by one or another unscrupulous Estate owner, when adfarm scumbags held the Mainland hostage, griefers routinely ravaged the grid crashing sims left and right, and Woodburries and their codependent spandex narcissists battled incessantly for control of Welcome Center incel strongholds.

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

If SL lost some concurrency as a result of all those nitwits drifting elsewhere, SL and its regulars are all the better for it.

At least *SOMEBODY* gets it...

(Sorry Ethan... ;) ) 

Most of the Secondwavers, the 90% that all buggered off in late 2008 early 2009, were here for the WRONG reasons, and did us all a favour by leaving.

The biggest problem is it would have been better if 95% of them had left, not 90%. That extra 5% are the ones who desperately try to cling to 2007/2008 and their glory days, the ones still trying to fight the "Parcel Wars", the ones who still make disposable untraceable alts to collect ancient griefer weapons from a prim arsenal on the roof of a semi abandoned skybox over Sansara, and attack ancient enemies from 2007/2008.

The ones still bemoaning that there are people in SL who "don't have proper last names", or that there are "too many filthy alts", or that things were better when everyone went to the same jazz club on Nautilus, or that...

"LL are not doing enough to guarantee a steady stream of gullible noobs I can sell my stuff to without logging in, so as to get the amount of FREE MONEY FROM A GAME that *I* believe *I* am entitled to for being here since 2007..."


 



 

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4 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

My point? SL needs to bring back that sense of community.

So YOU think a "community" is being forced to socialise with people you hate, loathe or despise. Hang out with people you have nothing in common with and don't want to have anything in common with...

Force all the Lesbians to stay in "Rapist Thug Alley Urban RP" sims, perhaps?

Send all the Medievalists to CyberGeek SciFi - the Sim for bionic augmentation...

4 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

There should be a NEXUS of activity where you can rub shoulders with the goreans, the furries, the clubgoers, the brazilians, and everyone else in SL. A place where you HAVE to go against your will and against what you can tolerate.

Oh hell no...

I'll tell you plainly, forcing people to hang out with groups they can't abide will certainly drive people away, not encourage them to stay.

Stop trying to remake SL as a "Can't we all get along - Hug the World" Forced Re-education Gulag.

Unless you actually want an angry mob who have decided they hate YOU more than they hate EACH OTHER, turning up at your parcel with a barrel of hot tar, a sack of feathers and a portable gallows...

 

Edited by Klytyna

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3 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

turning up at your parcel with a barrel of hot tar, a sack of feathers and a portable gallows.

Sounds like a normal Saturday night in Liverpool :) 

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4 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Sounds like a normal Saturday night in Liverpool :) 

Two giants, taller than the clouds, walking along on a cloudy day...

Giant #1: "Where the hell are we?"

Giant #2: "Hold on I'll check..."

He reaches down through the clouds, and fumbles around for a minute...

Giant #2:" Paris, I can feel the Tower"

They wander on and...

Giant #1: "where are we now then?"

Giant #2: "London... Big Ben"

They wander onwards...

Giant #1: "where now?"

Giant #2: "Hmmm, Liverpool..."

Giant #1: "What building is that then?"

Giant #2 : "None... Some thieving Scouser's had it away with my watch..."



 

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For what its worth I meet quite a few genuine newbies but then I go out of my way to say hi if I see someone with merely days on their age on radar and try and help. Several of those I have greeted are still around in sl, some leave. From my small sample retention rate seems about 20% which is higher than most claim. Maybe someone experienced willing to spend an hour or so teaching them a few basics helps....just a thought

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8 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

For what its worth I meet quite a few genuine newbies but then I go out of my way to say hi if I see someone with merely days on their age on radar and try and help. Several of those I have greeted are still around in sl, some leave. From my small sample retention rate seems about 20% which is higher than most claim. Maybe someone experienced willing to spend an hour or so teaching them a few basics helps....just a thought

You're right... Mentoring can help a lot, I can second your experience...

But...

Mentoring programs in SL, like RL have always failed...

And for the same reasons, SL as RL.

The problem is MOST volunteers for "mentoring programs" are only interested in being a "mentor" if they get a badge to wear, they crave the social kudos of being OFFICIALLY OFFICIAL Mentors (tm). Mostly they are middle class social worker wannabes, who's determination to "help those poor people" evaporates when it gets annoying or messy.

I remember a member of the failed and discredited "Adult Grid Mentors", let's call her...

Jerkabell Dugout, who "used to be a Duchess at the famous Thelvet Vorn FemDom Sim", as she liked to remind people about 20 times a day.

She was very proud of being a volunteer Mentor, and "helping poor noobs", but, realistically, she only helped about 1 in 40 of those she saw.

Being FemDomme, she tended to ignore female avatars unless they were very noticable out of the ordinary and possibly domme or switch, so unless you'd already helped your self to the point where Jerkabell's friends accused you of being a "filthy alt" on day 1, she wouldn't take any notice of you.

And as for male avatars, any that looked like "masta-wannabes" she ignored, and general noob guys, ignored, it was only a small percentage that caught her eye, some noticable effort to improve your avi on day 1, like getting an AO, or finding a free "non PG with painted underwear" skin, etc.

Now, once she'd found a sub guy noob with enough brains to shop the MP for freebies BEFORE logging in for the first time, and smart enough to figure how to unpack, and dress...

Well then she'd LEAP into Mentoring Action, and take them away for 2-4 hours of intense mentoring/power shopping, even contributing a few L$ (under 50 say" for certain essentials, before sending them off to visit "Thelvet Vorn FemDom, where she USED to be a Duchess!"

...

Jerkabell wasn't the ONLY "Adult Grid Mentor" I've met, another was...

Pestos Craptos... A 2nd wave lastnamer Mentor, who was so bloody dim, that I once had to tp halfway across the Feedumb Incontinent's 20 sim island to help him get out of a house he was showing to a prospective tenant, because the prim door was locked, and despite 5 years plus in SL, the dumb sod didn't understand how to cam past the door and double click tp on the prim sidewalk outside...

Mentors...

Me? I've had my share of Padawan in SL, but not because I've been part of any "program".

I bump into somebody new who reminds me of me... 

And I take them as a Padawan Learner, and teach them useful stuff, like advanced object editing, some basic scripting, how to read the unwritten in peoples profiles, dealing with entitled macho asshats, etc., so when I'm gone there will still be others like me, with the same skills, and similar attitudes, in SL.

...

Mentoring can work...

Mentoring Programs do not...
 

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1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said:

For some people, a challenging user experience is a positive, but this seems at odds with SL's inclusive "your world, your imagination" tagline

A large percentage of the current generation of "online gamers who might try Sl" do not in fact, appear to HAVE any "imagination", which is probably why they don't stay...

Nobody is telling them what the "Background Lore for this RP" is with a cool FMV intro, there's no briefings, no missions, no assigned role, they have to "imagine" stuff for themselves, and they can't.

So they sod off again to play "Italian Plumbers vs the Croco-turtles of Doom Episode 27" on their SonTendSoft PlayCubeOne, while screaming "Yeah, mama mia, I R Leet Combat Plumber from Mama Italy... Mom? Can I order takeout pizza please? I'm roleplaying being Italian today and need Italian food!"
 

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5 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Well if you want to drive people away sure go with this. I spend all day everyday having to rub shoulders with people I would rather not. I come to SL to relax. Forcing me to spend time with even more idiots than I already have to merely by visiting places where most people are the sort of people I interact with would make me decide that sl is worthless

 

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

So YOU think a "community" is being forced to socialise with people you hate, loathe or despise. Hang out with people you have nothing in common with and don't want to have anything in common with...

Force all the Lesbians to stay in "Rapist Thug Alley Urban RP" sims, perhaps?

Send all the Medievalists to CyberGeek SciFi - the Sim for bionic augmentation...

Oh hell no...

I'll tell you plainly, forcing people to hang out with groups they can't abide will certainly drive people away, not encourage them to stay.

Stop trying to remake SL as a "Can't we all get along - Hug the World" Forced Re-education Gulag.

Unless you actually want an angry mob who have decided they hate YOU more than they hate EACH OTHER, turning up at your parcel with a barrel of hot tar, a sack of feathers and a portable gallows...

 

It's responses like this that make the idea of a NEXUS even better. It should be a mandatory place you have to pass through every time you log in. You don't need to stop and chat with anybody. Simply log into SL and walk through the nexus to another portal that takes you wherever you want to be. Every other SL resident would be doing the same thing. In that short walk you'll be reminded that there are people,  a lot of people, in SL doing things that you're not doing and maybe they don't want to rub shoulders with you either but at least the sense of community will be felt. It's like an an endless parade of interesting people on display for everyone to watch.

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12 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

In that short walk you'll be reminded that there are people,  a lot of people, in SL doing things that you're not doing and maybe they don't want to rub shoulders with you either but at least the sense of community will be felt.

The only "sense of community" you'd ever get from something like that is...

"The Committee of Right Thinking Concerned Citizens into Activity A, for the Banning of un-citizens into Activity B who strut though the Nexus like they are real People entitled to Rights!"

A whole bunch of unpleasant protest groups, plotting and scheming to try and get all the other groups banned from the Nexus and SL.

16 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

It should be a mandatory place you have to pass through every time you log in. You don't need to stop and chat with anybody. Simply log into SL and walk through the nexus to another portal that takes you wherever you want to be

Dark Gods of the Grid give me strength...

17 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Every other SL resident would be doing the same thing. In that short walk you'll be reminded that there are people,  a lot of people, in SL

...That you want banned from SL for not being...

Just... Like... You...

Think how the Funless-Mental Evade-Genital Cheesus Toast Worshiping Puritan Folk will react to seeing Furry D/s folk walking past in bondage gear... "A-Bumination! Think of the Kiddies! Ban them ALL NOW!"

Your ill-considered, ill-thought out, ill-advised proposal is the very LAST thing SL needs.

In short, your suggestion is a classic example of the unlicenced possession of illegal quantities of WEAPONS GRADE STUPIDITY!
 

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33 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

 

It's responses like this that make the idea of a NEXUS even better. It should be a mandatory place you have to pass through every time you log in. You don't need to stop and chat with anybody. Simply log into SL and walk through the nexus to another portal that takes you wherever you want to be. Every other SL resident would be doing the same thing. In that short walk you'll be reminded that there are people,  a lot of people, in SL doing things that you're not doing and maybe they don't want to rub shoulders with you either but at least the sense of community will be felt. It's like an an endless parade of interesting people on display for everyone to watch.

You mean something like Sansar, where you choose exactly where you want to go and bypass any interaction with anyone except for the people at your destination.  Or someplace that starts you in a central location with a bunch of doors, and you run to the one you want?  I've experienced both, and while there can be downfalls in an open world like SL, the other kinds I hate with a passion.  I enjoy open exploring and have often met some great people just passing them on my walks from sim to sim.

You don't get kindly reminded there are people using a central portal area.  You get reminded that too many people in one area creates mega lag and you just want out.

Edited by Sandy Schnook
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38 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

It's responses like this that make the idea of a NEXUS even better. It should be a mandatory place you have to pass through every time you log in. You don't need to stop and chat with anybody.

What happens if you crash while in the middle of an adult activity. Do you have to log into the common area, naked and aroused, and portal back to your poseballs?

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10 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

What happens if you crash while in the middle of an adult activity. Do you have to log into the common area, naked and aroused, and portal back to your poseballs?

The Extremely Reverend Doctor Neamiah B. Scudder of the 3rd Southern Batbit Funless-Mental Evade-Genital Crutch of Cheesus Toast will loudly state...

""A-Bumination unto the Lard! Think of the Kiddies! Ban them ALL NOW!"
 

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40 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

The only "sense of community" you'd ever get from something like that is...

"The Committee of Right Thinking Concerned Citizens into Activity A, for the Banning of un-citizens into Activity B who strut though the Nexus like they are real People entitled to Rights!"

A whole bunch of unpleasant protest groups, plotting and scheming to try and get all the other groups banned from the Nexus and SL.
 

I get it Klytyna. You don't want it. BUT, in order for this to work you still have to be a part of it. Maybe, all the people who opt-out can walk through a special nexus to the destination portal. It would be a shorter walk than the regular NEXUS walk. Better? It has to be mandatory for the sense of community. Also, to address Callum's concerns, any nudity would be covered with black bars rezzed over you. I think the client viewers can detect if you are naked. They can also detect if you are male or female and put the censorship bars over the right parts of the anatomy. The main reason for my suggestion is to remedy the decline of SL. I think this would promote SL and encourage more people to try it. 

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9 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think the client viewers can detect if you are naked. They can also detect if you are male or female and put the censorship bars over the right parts of the anatomy.

:D Merry Christmas Bree

 

Edited by Callum Meriman

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