Full sims - queue?

[Resi Pfeffer]

23 minutes ago, Orwar said:

What about a timer to let the server know you're still there?

Thats exists already at "The Sands", for example.  When the user count hits the limit, a blue menu pops up, where you have to press OK in order not to be temp. kicked to make space for others.

[MBeatrix]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Other than the shaking, this is a pretty straightforward script for an event operator to implement on their own, at least for script-visible "anythings" an idle avatar may fail to do.

It may not be popular with event-goers, though. At first glance, it seems easy enough for a cam-shopper to respond to a pop-up, but presumably they'd get those pop-ups when non-cam-shoppers wouldn't.

I just remember how annoyed I used to get when Netflix would ask "Are you still there?" -- somehow always at the least opportune moment.

No need for popups if you are zooming around or talking with a friend in IM — the viewer "knows" you are not inactive.

[Qie Niangao]

24 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

No need for popups if you are zooming around or talking with a friend in IM — the viewer "knows" you are not inactive.

Zooming around, yeah, that's even visible to the hypothetical script. The "talking with a friend in IM" you rightly identify as a thing the viewer, not a script, could know -- but of course it's also trivial for a viewer to fake, which is a whole other can of worms. (It's a general rule that no policy can be effectively enforced in an open-source viewer. Viewer code can make enforcement more palatable to users, but the actual intervention needs to be determined and executed server-side.)

It suddenly occurs to me that to optimize performance we'd encourage cam-shopping and actively discourage folks from moving around (once they're off the landing zone or entry point or whatever). So there might be adverse effects if a measure actually caused folks to move more.

[MoiraKathleen]

The Shop to Hop event has 5 sims with the stores, yet has 10 surrounding waiting/cam shopping sims - of those 10 at the moment, 6 of those are completely empty and the other 4 have between 1 to 9 avatars in them.  It certainly doesn't look like a situation where anyone would be turned away from any of the cam shopping sims.  I was really glad to see all the additional cam shopping sims available on a big LL event like this one is.  I realize though that not all resident-ran events are going to be able to afford this ratio of additional cam shopping sims, but  there are events that advertise having cam shopping sims available for the event, so perhaps that idea is becoming more popular.  I generally bring the map up for the event sims prior to trying to TP there, to see how full sims are, if there are cam shopping sims, etc. and then choose where to TP to based on the population of the event sims.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

At least some sort of popup on the screen is a better idea that many others for determining if you've simply parked your avi somewhere.  Even with my focus on camming and missing IMs, I do notice popups like that.

But what do you mean exactly? Will it be all sims, that are required to do it? Like if on my home sim, would I have a time limit to be there? I don't get it, and really think going that far, is not the way to go. It should not be put on the shoulders of LL as a whole. It should be done by people who run events, and that being said. Not a lot of people would be happy, having to take a number to get into the sim. I do it a lot for some of the medical places I go to, but to implement it at events. I would have to totally disagree with that, that queue could take days, even weeks, or you could be SOL and not be able to go to the event because you had to take a number. 

[Qie Niangao]

13 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

... that queue could take days, even weeks, or you could be SOL and not be able to go to the event because you had to take a number. 

This is an interesting response, and instructive because I bet there are other folks who also think they'd be better served taking their chances hammering on the teleport button than waiting in queue. Of course, some percentage of the time they'd be correct, on which occasion they'd be making things even worse for those less lucky than themselves.

(More late stage capitalism?)

[Sammy Huntsman]

25 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

This is an interesting response, and instructive because I bet there are other folks who also think they'd be better served taking their chances hammering on the teleport button than waiting in queue. Of course, some percentage of the time they'd be correct, on which occasion they'd be making things even worse for those less lucky than themselves.

(More late stage capitalism?)

No just do what the rest of us does, be patient and wait to get in. Your best bet is to go about a week after the event opens, as the hype dies down. But this is my problem, no one has the patience anymore. They just want instant results, and that is it. Trust me, I want to get into a tonne of events. But I usually wait, and then go and get what I want.

[MBeatrix]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Zooming around, yeah, that's even visible to the hypothetical script. The "talking with a friend in IM" you rightly identify as a thing the viewer, not a script, could know -- but of course it's also trivial for a viewer to fake, which is a whole other can of worms. (It's a general rule that no policy can be effectively enforced in an open-source viewer. Viewer code can make enforcement more palatable to users, but the actual intervention needs to be determined and executed server-side.)

It suddenly occurs to me that to optimize performance we'd encourage cam-shopping and actively discourage folks from moving around (once they're off the landing zone or entry point or whatever). So there might be adverse effects if a measure actually caused folks to move more.

A friend who didn't bother fighting the lag at the Shop & Hop event says the cam shopping worked pretty well for her. I have that experience myself from other shopping events.

Some of the most important shopping events have been using cam sims for quite a while now, and I can testify that even avatar collisions are minimal, as everyone tends to quickly move away from the landing point to the sim border, so they can zoom in to vendors easier.

Despite using virtual bodies and stuff we are still human, so I suppose that most people prefer to walk around if they can. I know I do, especially if the event has buildings at a demo area, which is at the main sim, in a sky platform. Yeah, leasing sims for events costs money, and I believe that cam shopping ones are only useful for the event's first week... After that, attendance usually drops significantly.

Edited December 20, 2018 by MBeatrix
missing word added

[MBeatrix]

1 hour ago, moirakathleen said:

The Shop to Hop event has 5 sims with the stores, yet has 10 surrounding waiting/cam shopping sims - of those 10 at the moment, 6 of those are completely empty and the other 4 have between 1 to 9 avatars in them.  It certainly doesn't look like a situation where anyone would be turned away from any of the cam shopping sims.  I was really glad to see all the additional cam shopping sims available on a big LL event like this one is.  I realize though that not all resident-ran events are going to be able to afford this ratio of additional cam shopping sims, but  there are events that advertise having cam shopping sims available for the event, so perhaps that idea is becoming more popular.  I generally bring the map up for the event sims prior to trying to TP there, to see how full sims are, if there are cam shopping sims, etc. and then choose where to TP to based on the population of the event sims.

It's funny that right now the world map shows 40 avatars at Gilded, 42 at Golden, 40 at Halcyon, 37 at Aurelian and 32 at Tinseled. Of course the numbers aren't accurate, as they depend on the world map updating timings, but I'm sure they won't be far from that. And yes, the cam sims have much, much less avatars.

Edited December 20, 2018 by MBeatrix
typo correction

[Fionalein]

6 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

And yes, the cam sims have much, much less avatars.

Because they are useless... I cannot click anything from them... This event has just too much lag.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Fionalein

[MBeatrix]

4 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Because they are useless... I cannot click anything from them... This event has just too much lag.

Ouch! I have that very same experience being at the main sim too. And also sometimes having vendors not delivering what I paid — the solution is always going to the main store and use the re-delivery terminal (if they have one.)

[Love Zhaoying]

The title containing “Queue” reminds me, once in a college programming class, one guy told the class he liked “Quee’s”. He did not know how to pronounce the word.

[Fionalein]

26 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The title containing “Queue” reminds me, once in a college programming class, one guy told the class he liked “Quee’s”. He did not know how to pronounce the word.

Was he a billard player?

[Love Zhaoying]

38 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Was he a billard player?

I do not know.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

No just do what the rest of us does, be patient and wait to get in. Your best bet is to go about a week after the event opens, as the hype dies down. But this is my problem, no one has the patience anymore. They just want instant results, and that is it. Trust me, I want to get into a tonne of events. But I usually wait, and then go and get what I want.

That's cool. It's just that there's no reason anyone who follows that strategy should ever encounter a queue at all, let alone be inconvenienced by one. I guess I'm having difficulty coming up with a real downside of the queuing approach (other than its benefits maybe not justifying the opportunity cost to implement). It seemed that it might be perceived to delay entry in some cases, but now I'm not sure you were saying that.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Qie Niangao
("it's" != "its")

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's cool. It's just that there's no reason anyone who follows that strategy should ever encounter a queue at all, let alone be inconvenienced by one. I guess I'm having difficulty coming up with a real downside of the queuing approach (other than its benefits maybe not justifying the opportunity cost to implement). It seemed that it might be perceived to delay entry in some cases, but now I'm not sure you were saying that.

I was saying that it would turn into, when would I get in? People would be uncertain of when they would be able to get in. That and some people may be SOL even going to the event. A queue, which is a good idea in theory. Would be a terrible idea in practice. Imagine this, if you had to wait, and your waiting time or number was in the high ones, and by the time it got to you, the event you really wanted to go to, was over. Is it too bad so sad, maybe next event? Like I really don't get this whole approach. How would it benefit the event organizers?  The only people who it would benefit were the impatient people.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

That and some people may be SOL

The official name of our star!

[Fionalein]

15 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

Imagine this, if you had to wait, and your waiting time or number was in the high ones, and by the time it got to you, the event you really wanted to go to, was over.

Imagine not being able to teleport into an event until it ended? If your premise of some people having to wait until it ended would be true there must have also been some events you could not enter while they lasted... oh wait - last Linden shopping event almost was - See? Nothing lost with the waiting approach

 

It would also kill TP hammer SPAM - redo the teleport event to actually (re)queue you and the TP hammer would make you keep constantly moving to the end of the line. The Lab introduced the premium perk to stop TP hammer use - but it actually made people hammer more.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Fionalein

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

I was saying that it would turn into, when would I get in? People would be uncertain of when they would be able to get in. That and some people may be SOL even going to the event. A queue, which is a good idea in theory. Would be a terrible idea in practice. Imagine this, if you had to wait, and your waiting time or number was in the high ones, and by the time it got to you, the event you really wanted to go to, was over. Is it too bad so sad, maybe next event? Like I really don't get this whole approach. How would it benefit the event organizers?  The only people who it would benefit were the impatient people.

I'm still not understanding. If the queue was so long that it never got to be my turn, then I couldn't get into the event without a queue either -- except on the chance of sneaking in ahead of somebody less lucky. And anyway, all this is in service of "the impatient people" -- anybody patient enough to wait until the crowds die down will never see a queue at all.

Tangentially, this got me wondering about queues longer than a login session. Say I queued and found it wouldn't be my turn until too late for me to be in-world. Do I get priority place in the queue when I log back in, even though I wasn't present when my turn would have come up, or do I start over at the back of the line? I'm not sure which way would be preferable (but one is sure easier to implement!).

[LittleMe Jewell]

17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Tangentially, this got me wondering about queues longer than a login session. Say I queued and found it wouldn't be my turn until too late for me to be in-world. Do I get priority place in the queue when I log back in, even though I wasn't present when my turn would have come up, or do I start over at the back of the line? I'm not sure which way would be preferable (but one is sure easier to implement!).

This is what I started pondering today.   There would have to be some way to give you a bit of priority if the last time your queue number came up you were no longer online.  A smart system could detect when the avatar came back online and send them a message offering to put them back in the queue at a certain position, but the internal algorithm could get quite interesting.

[Drakonadrgora Darkfold]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:16 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

What’s the definition of AFK in this context? Those of us who disable the “no activity AWAY” feature will be happily running whatever stand / sit animation or AO, and our tag header won’t say “away”.  Will people think we are away/AFK merely because we aren’t moving?

Well, technically there is a way to detect if certain people are afk even if they do that. Within rlv there is a restriction that can disable that ability to disable the afk setting and will basically cause a user to be set as afk after 30 minutes. So anyone with rlv on and wearing a relay or collar that has it set to auto could be forced to reveal they are afk. Any scripter could then perhaps write a script that would then use that force tp them out through their collar or relay at that point too.

So all someone would need is rlv control zone like object that applies that setting to anyone with an auto-collar/relay. Meaning any sub that cannot turn of their relay in their collar because their owner doesn't allow it would be ejected for being afk.

On 12/19/2018 at 10:43 AM, MBeatrix said:

But doing it on the client's side would involve a more complicated process to trick the system. Something like an auto typer or whatever.

 

Actually, you would not need an auto typer at all. You could simply run a macro that repeats itself every so often with the sl window in focus. like using an old autoit script macro. It could either type a response and never post it, or just inch the avatar in a random direction every few minutes.

Now toward the original topic, I think such a queue would be a great thing especially if it requires user interaction to keep their place or they lost it and were moved further down in the queue. I think it would be beneficial to any kind of sim and not just shopping or event sims.

[Fionalein]

6 hours ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

So all someone would need is rlv control zone like object that applies that setting to anyone with an auto-collar/relay. Meaning any sub that cannot turn of their relay in their collar because their owner doesn't allow it would be ejected for being afk.

Nooo, we don't need that CARP CRAP! stuff. Quite to the contrary. IMHO anyone with a collar should be booted from events ASAP. If you cannot differentiate betweeen your sexual fantasy and shopping at least have the decency not to lag down the rest of us users. Don't wear collars at crowded events - it is a very impolite thing to do!

Edited December 21, 2018 by Fionalein

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

Nooo, we don't need that CARP CRAP! stuff. Quite to the contrary. IMHO anyone with a collar should be booted from events ASAP. If you cannot differentiate betweeen your sexual fantasy and shopping at least have the decency not to lag down the rest of us users. Don't wear collars at crowded events - it is a very impolite thing to do!

Flawed logic. Heavy AO huds (guilty of wearing one myself, firestorm AO just lacks features/options compared to those), some scripted pets/animals people like to wear/have near them so much, certain (but not all) furry/neko/etc attachments, like some older non bento tails for example, tons of other stuff because there's just way too much to list. Don't know what you might have against collars, but modern ones are not any worse scripts count/lag wise, than anything on that list. So unless you want and expect everyone and anyone to strip out of their "heavy" attachments, including those very heavy huds that you can't even check if someone is wearing (mesh body ones, all those slex systems, battle/rp ones that people don't bother to detach and more), your comment was very biased against the certain kind of attachments that might bother you for some other reason.

 

And to the idea of AFK timers someone had earlier. It probably one of the worst ideas for SL I heard this year. It really is.

No idea why some people have issues with cam shopping, though. But when I'm in rush to get into some event asap, then those always worked perfectly for me. Usually I don't mind waiting a few days, though. New items won't go anywhere and 99% of events are easy enough to access after 4-7 days since they started.

[Drakonadrgora Darkfold]

5 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Nooo, we don't need that CARP CRAP! stuff. Quite to the contrary. IMHO anyone with a collar should be booted from events ASAP. If you cannot differentiate betweeen your sexual fantasy and shopping at least have the decency not to lag down the rest of us users. Don't wear collars at crowded events - it is a very impolite thing to do!

It is not about being simple or being polite it is about what their owner allows them to do, and if it's more than just rp to them or not. Some people cannot remove their collars because they are locked on and they have no way to remove them because of rlv and because of obeying their owners commands not to. and will not log out of rlv just to remove the collar because someone doesn't like them wearing them at a shopping event.

There is no difference between someone's sexual fantasy and someone else's shopping fantasy. for everything in sl is just fantasy driven since none of it is real, to begin with. Telling someone not to wear their collar is about as bad as someone telling you, that you are only allowed at that event on mon-wed-friday and only at noon or else you need to be booted asap.

4 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Flawed logic. Heavy AO huds (guilty of wearing one myself, firestorm AO just lacks features/options compared to those), some scripted pets/animals people like to wear/have near them so much, certain (but not all) furry/neko/etc attachments, like some older non bento tails for example, tons of other stuff because there's just way too much to list. Don't know what you might have against collars, but modern ones are not any worse scripts count/lag wise, than anything on that list. So unless you want and expect everyone and anyone to strip out of their "heavy" attachments, including those very heavy huds that you can't even check if someone is wearing (mesh body ones, all those slex systems, battle/rp ones that people don't bother to detach and more), your comment was very biased against the certain kind of attachments that might bother you for some other reason.

 

6

True, so I guess anyone using these should be booted asap because other people often fail to understand what is really causing lag in sims at times. It is not often the users and what they have on that causes it; but all the vendors and the textures or animations in the vendors that lag down the sim for the user there, or going with their settings to high and not being willing to turn them down. "if I want to be on ultra and go shopping it shouldn't be lagged by someone else and what they are using!"

[Fionalein]

58 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Some people cannot remove their collars because they are locked on and they have no way to remove them because of rlv and because of obeying their owners commands not to. and will not log out of rlv just to remove the collar because someone doesn't like them wearing them at a shopping event.

Then stay away, and send your jailer to shop for you, duh!