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What are some of your pet peeves?

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40 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

I agree, but we were not talking about abusive relationships, we were talking about unwelcome sexual propositions and whether or not they were the equivalent of sexual assaults.

Oh you are right, its not even close. I just wanted to state that even if no physical harm can be done, this does not mean no harm can be done at all.

 

31 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

That would be Sexual Harassment. Sexual Assault is clearly defined as: n act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.  Making a suggestion for one to have sex with someone, clearly sounds like sexual harassment, not sexual assault.

Maybe if we nitpick on the legal term of "assault", it requires (the threat of) physical harm. But we are on an international forum where use of perfect English language, and US legal terms and such should not be more important than common sense. We can agree that verbal abuse can occur. And if people use the term "verbal assault" for it, it might not be the exact right term, it does not diminish the meaning of what they meant to say.

Edited by Zeta Vandyke
fixing stuffs
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1 hour ago, halebore Aeon said:

Here in Canada, if you are charged with Assault, Assault with a Weapon, Assault causing Bodily Harm, or Sexual Assault. One has to put their hands on the person, or cause physical harm to someone.

Um, not so.

I quote from the Canadian Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46):

Quote

265 (1) A person commits an assault when

(a) without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly;

(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or

(c) while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs.

 

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1 hour ago, kali Wylder said:

that fear is always present, but not in SL.

 

That may be true for you but it is not true for everyone. Just knowing someone can't actually touch you isn't always enough to feel safe. 

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1 hour ago, kali Wylder said:

But I don't think an unwelcome proposition qualifies as an assault. 

Would depend on the way it was worded and the 'tone of voice' used would it not?

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1 hour ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Words can be quite harmful too when directed at someone sensitive to them. Not just saying something nasty, rude or shocking, but on a deeper psychical way. An abusive relationship does not always have to be a physically abusive one.

 

Exactly. The worst kind are the relationships that are physically, emotionally and mentally abusive (verbal abuse/assault) like the one I survived 10 years in.

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I wonder if, to some extent, the focus upon legal definitions rather misses the point? It's too much like building big boxes into which we arbitrarily try to cram a really wide variety of complicated human behaviours.

There's a reason why we have trials, even when a case appears "open and shut": it's an acknowledgment of, among other things, the importance of context.

Just two quick examples from RL:

 

  • A man tries to pick me up in a crowded club at night. In such a case, I'm unlikely to feel threatened unless . . .
  • the same man (or another) follows me outside where there are fewer, or no, other people, and makes the same proposition. In such a case, yeah, there's a reasonable chance I'm going to feel threatened.

 

  • A man who is a colleague or coworker makes a pass at me . . . I can deal with that, unless it turns into continual harassment.
  • A man who happens to be my boss, or my boss' boss, makes a pass at me. That constitutes a potential threat, even if not a physical one

 

There are so many different variables here. What kind of language did the man use? What was his body language? Was I in a place where I might reasonably expect to be hit on? Is the man a stranger? Am I with anyone else (as for example, gfs?) How well lit is the place? Is he standing over me, or sitting?

You know, serious point: I think if more men understood that there are contexts in which they are making a woman feel unsafe, there would be fewer instances of women feeling threatened, because I don't think most men want to be threatening. But I don't think a lot of men "get it." For instance, if you invite me over to your house for drinks, and I accept, it is a reasonable assumption that I might be available for . . . more. That's fine. But don't turn that assumption into action without confirming it in some way. And bear in mind that I need to feel safe to say "no," or my "yes" is going to be at least potentially coerced.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Added emphasis
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2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

An assault literally means, Make a Physical Attack on. No one can Physically hurt you, Verbally. I would say the better word would be, that the person verbally harassed you.

 

 

 

Read #2.

image.png.528dd997661af5584f71fdd1a3ba952c.png

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1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well yes, they are separate crimes, and if you run at someone with your fists raised screaming that you're going to kill them, and then beat them up, you're guilty of both. But you don't need to assault someone to commit battery. When battery results in injury, a choice of charge is available. 

"Assault" is usually used in place of "battery" in everyday parlance here, but legally they are different things. How it works elsewhere, I couldn't say. 

It's a bit of a moot point within the context of SL, but I'm just making the point that, here at least, assault doesn't actually mean what many people think it does.

IN the US you can be charged with both. Battery and assault. It's an actual criminal charge on law books.

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16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

if more men understood that there are contexts in which they are making a woman feel unsafe, there would be fewer instances of women feeling threatened, because I don't think most men want to be threatening. But I don't think a lot of men "get it." 

A lot of men don't get it. Some never will because they just can't make that necessary POV shift that they think is a threat to their manhood. They're so afraid 'thinking like a woman' is going to damage them somehow and they will become less of a man. Doesn't make sense but there it is.

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15 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

A lot of men don't get it. Some never will because they just can't make that necessary POV shift that they think is a threat to their manhood. They're so afraid 'thinking like a woman' is going to damage them somehow and they will become less of a man. Doesn't make sense but there it is.

Sure. There is certainly a subset of men -- I think a shrinking subset, happily -- who need to feel physically threatening in order to be turned on. There is doubtless a big overlap here with that other subset of men who believe women -- all women -- want to be "forced" physically or through intimidation into sex. (Hello, rape myths!)

But I think that this is a shrinking subset, precisely because we are getting much better, and much louder, at articulating our need to feel that consent isn't coerced by intimidation, threats of physical violence, or other forms of retribution. There will undoubtedly always be men who get off on being physically intimidating, but I honestly believe that we are making progress in communicating to other men, who are capable of change, that change needs to happen.

Unfortunately. it's a slow and painful process, and there is still a trail of damaged women who need to be cared for.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And bear in mind that I need to feel safe to say "no," or my "yes" is going to be at least potentially coerced.

   To most people, it should appear obvious - but there are cases where people have been unable to read a situation properly (intoxication, for example) and not realizing that the person with whom they're trying to communicate is feeling unsafe or that their behavior applies any pressure.

   I was hanging out with two female friends a couple of weeks ago, and as they wanted to go out for a smoke I figured I'd tag along and stretch my legs. Whilst outside, a guy begins to converse with my friends and, upon discovering that one of them is Danish, demands that she teach him a Danish phrase. I don't pay it much attention, I perceive him as pretty onward and obnoxious but since my friends showed no signs of discomfort I remained silent. When the guy proceeds to completely butcher the phrase she tries to teach him, they all have a little laugh and he then asks for them to give him a hug. I find his request a bit curious if not out of place, but they both smile and give him a hug, and then we go back inside. For the next few hours, they rant about how men are a bunch of <censored>. I could have squashed the guy like a bug, and wouldn't have hesitated to do so if he tried to force them to do something, and there were several other people around within a few feet who could have stepped in if needed - there was even a uniformed security guard well within hearshot.

   So how far should we go to make women 'feel safe', if figuratively sitting on the lap of an officer of the law isn't enough to turn an unwanted advance down? And yes, that's an anecdotal story, but it's a fairly common situation that I've picked up on several times before and never could understand with my apparent 'guy mind'.

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2 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I was driven off a predominantly male forum once by the endless death and rape threats. Of course none of them could actually rape or kill me but jeez, it's unpleasant and, yes, rather frightening. If they said that they'd rape and/or murder me if they ever got the chance and thought they could get away with it, why shouldn't I believe them? If what they said about themselves was true, they were generally normal people with jobs, relationships and social circles, which is far more terrifying than if they were all easily identifiable by their webbed feet, scales and permanent residence in an underground tavern. It does, after a while, leave you wondering....who?
 

This is so real. I've had a few . . . well, they were couched as "offers," but they were in fact rape threats . . . here in SL. And I've seen women driven from these forums by misogynist harassment, in at least one case by a former lover whose cruelty was unbelievably public. (And, I might note, unpunished: anyone who dislikes the moderation here now should bear in mind what a forum without effective moderation can be like.)

I also knew a young woman in an SL D/s relationship who had to move in RL because her former master traced her down in RL.

So, while it is true that there is relatively little physical threat from toxic interactions here or in-world, it doesn't mean that these are "safe" places.

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2 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   To most people, it should appear obvious - but there are cases where people have been unable to read a situation properly (intoxication, for example) and not realizing that the person with whom they're trying to communicate is feeling unsafe or that their behavior applies any pressure.

   I was hanging out with two female friends a couple of weeks ago, and as they wanted to go out for a smoke I figured I'd tag along and stretch my legs. Whilst outside, a guy begins to converse with my friends and, upon discovering that one of them is Danish, demands that she teach him a Danish phrase. I don't pay it much attention, I perceive him as pretty onward and obnoxious but since my friends showed no signs of discomfort I remained silent. When the guy proceeds to completely butcher the phrase she tries to teach him, they all have a little laugh and he then asks for them to give him a hug. I find his request a bit curious if not out of place, but they both smile and give him a hug, and then we go back inside. For the next few hours, they rant about how men are a bunch of <censored>. I could have squashed the guy like a bug, and wouldn't have hesitated to do so if he tried to force them to do something, and there were several other people around within a few feet who could have stepped in if needed - there was even a uniformed security guard well within hearshot.

   So how far should we go to make women 'feel safe', if figuratively sitting on the lap of an officer of the law isn't enough to turn an unwanted advance down? And yes, that's an anecdotal story, but it's a fairly common situation that I've picked up on several times before and never could understand with my apparent 'guy mind'.

I'm not sure what you want here, Orwar. A bullet-proof "rule book" definition of what should always be read as threatening, and what shouldn't be?

That's not the way that people, and personal interactions work. For instance, we have here, in this thread, a rape survivor who makes the entirely valid point that her experience has left her feeling vulnerable in way that is measurably going to be very different from those who haven't been the victims of sexual assault. Your women friends might not have felt threatened, but maybe others would.

There's no handy one-size-fits-all approach to this: rather, it's about being thoughtful and careful enough to read the situation properly. And that's why we're talking about this here: so that people (mostly but not exclusively men) think about what they're doing.

To most people it should appear obvious that something is threatening or not. But to a lot of people, it doesn't -- and that's why it's important to speak up about this, and educate those who don't understand. The point isn't to codify it . . . it is to make all of us more aware, more conscious, more thoughtful, and more careful.

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9 minutes ago, Orwar said:

  So how far should we go to make women 'feel safe', if figuratively sitting on the lap of an officer of the law isn't enough to turn an unwanted advance down?

Like the ex military sergeant turned police officer taught in his pistol training class, "Whatever it takes." 

Although, like I said in another post, even in a place like SL, knowing you can't be touched physically isn't always enough. You know it isn't possible but you can't stop the reaction. 

The main things to know are patience and time.

 

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7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure what you want here, Orwar.

   I'm not the one trying to find ways to change society- I was trying to ask what you want. In that situation, as well as many others, I don't really see what could be changed. I'm not pointing at you, or anyone else especially, but the argument in these issues almost always go that 'men need to change their behavior towards women' and 'men need to take responsibility for what men do towards women'; wouldn't it all be easier if they could just say no? And how do we empower them with the confidence to say no? I'd very much like to hear a concrete, rational suggestion - obviously a woman who doesn't want physical interaction shouldn't have to endure it, but if they won't even say no, how on earth is any man supposed to know what they want or don't want?

   I know this suggestion might be like, completely out of place - but perhaps if we stopped demonizing men as 'wild beasts' and 'brutes' in media, saying no wouldn't be quite so scary?

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5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I'm not the one trying to find ways to change society- I was trying to ask what you want. In that situation, as well as many others, I don't really see what could be changed. I'm not pointing at you, or anyone else especially, but the argument in these issues almost always go that 'men need to change their behavior towards women' and 'men need to take responsibility for what men do towards women'; wouldn't it all be easier if they could just say no? And how do we empower them with the confidence to say no? I'd very much like to hear a concrete, rational suggestion - obviously a woman who doesn't want physical interaction shouldn't have to endure it, but if they won't even say no, how on earth is any man supposed to know what they want or don't want?

   I know this suggestion might be like, completely out of place - but perhaps if we stopped demonizing men as 'wild beasts' and 'brutes' in media, saying no wouldn't be quite so scary?

It's almost impossible for me to comment in any sort of an intelligent way on the anecdote you've provided: I don't know what the women were thinking, or what he was. Although you yourself suggest his request for a hug seemed "odd." And maybe that's all the change that would be required: recognition, on his part, that that's really not an appropriate request in that context, that it's a bit "odd"?

And yes, no one should be demonized. I don't believe men are wild beasts or brutes -- if I did, I wouldn't believe that they can be educated to be more sensitive to how they approach women. THAT would be a more appropriate and constructive thing for the media to focus upon.

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18 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I know this suggestion might be like, completely out of place - but perhaps if we stopped demonizing men as 'wild beasts' and 'brutes' in media, saying no wouldn't be quite so scary?

That isn't the source. The source is men, not how they are portrayed in media.

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3 hours ago, Orwar said:

   To most people, it should appear obvious - but there are cases where people have been unable to read a situation properly (intoxication, for example) and not realizing that the person with whom they're trying to communicate is feeling unsafe or that their behavior applies any pressure.

   I was hanging out with two female friends a couple of weeks ago, and as they wanted to go out for a smoke I figured I'd tag along and stretch my legs. Whilst outside, a guy begins to converse with my friends and, upon discovering that one of them is Danish, demands that she teach him a Danish phrase. I don't pay it much attention, I perceive him as pretty onward and obnoxious but since my friends showed no signs of discomfort I remained silent. When the guy proceeds to completely butcher the phrase she tries to teach him, they all have a little laugh and he then asks for them to give him a hug. I find his request a bit curious if not out of place, but they both smile and give him a hug, and then we go back inside. For the next few hours, they rant about how men are a bunch of <censored>. I could have squashed the guy like a bug, and wouldn't have hesitated to do so if he tried to force them to do something, and there were several other people around within a few feet who could have stepped in if needed - there was even a uniformed security guard well within hearshot.

   So how far should we go to make women 'feel safe', if figuratively sitting on the lap of an officer of the law isn't enough to turn an unwanted advance down? And yes, that's an anecdotal story, but it's a fairly common situation that I've picked up on several times before and never could understand with my apparent 'guy mind'.

I can see why sometimes a woman's response may cause confusion or appear to be mixed signals. I'm not responding directly to your story with this but it made me think about personalities, i.e. I hate how sometimes people sense kindness or niceness as an opportunity to take advantage. Say you're the quiet diligent student in the class and the obnoxious kid "asks" you to do his/her homework. Easy to assume that all that is needed is a reply "no" but take in personalities, situation and context and it's not so simple.

I've been in situations where guys were behaving "oddly" too. I don't know if it was because my friendly and polite demeanour seemed to have invited it but sometimes I feel like guys sense niceness and then choose to push the boundaries rather than respect and appreciate it.

I can't speak for your friends but I can imagine the possibility that they just wanted to be polite and didn't want to feel the awkwardness of declining the hug. Plus not everyone is that great with assertiveness. What would have been ideal is if the dude didn't behave so oddly to put them in that uncomfortable situation in the first place. I mean, asking for a hug out of nowhere?.. come on, that's creepy.

It makes me think about how these days I put on resting b!tch face just so I won't get bothered and I mean in general, not about guys or whatever. Like I find if I'm standing in a queue with RBF, I rarely get people trying to cut in line. It's like.. must we be rude and mean in order to get courtesy from others (in general, not just from men)?

Edit: Sorry when I say "guys", I should really have said "people" but the topic made me refer to guys by default.. but hope you know what I mean :/

Edited by AdminGirl
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Newest pet peeve of mine.

When i post an RP lure in a group and wait on the connected sim, I usually wait around 15 minutes to see if anyone bites, then if they don't I leave and find somewhere else to go. What I've seen a rise of though, is people IMing me asking me why I left, that their sad to see me go or better yet, they start TALKING ABOUT all the things they want to do with me..... like.....

 

WHY DIDN'T YOU ACCEPT THE LURE AND COME ROLE-PLAY WITH ME THEN!?!?!?!

This annoys the sh*it out of me, I put a lot of thought into my emotes, they are usually para style so when people don't come by with a response I already feel frustrated because it was a waste of effort and time, so people getting in my IM's IMMEDIATELY after I leave really rubs me the wrong way

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4 hours ago, Orwar said:

  wouldn't it all be easier if they could just say no? And how do we empower them with the confidence to say no?

That's a tough one. Some women have a real difficulty with saying no, and are easily intimidated not only by men but by other women, who have no intent to intimidate at all. I'm thinking of workplace scenarios here, and how I handled it was to encourage my staff to communicate with me openly and be assured I won't judge them if they ask for help. Still didn't work all the time, but I was a supervisor, not a counsellor, and didn't have the time or skills to address individual problems. Generally it boiled down to individual issues - their own temperaments, family relationships, various traumas they hadn't worked through. It's hard for a colleague or friend to understand all the issues that might be affecting someone's behaviour, let alone a random stranger. The only advice I can give is: if the inability to say no is adversely affecting your life, work through this with a counsellor. There are techniques that can help unpack what's causing it.

now back to our regularly scheduled pet peeves programme .... (I haven't thought of a peeve yet)

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This is sort of a pet peeve, maybe, I dunno. I roll my eyes a little when I see profiles that are over-emphatic in their proclamation of love for their other halves. I mean, why do they feel the need to tell everyone how perfect their relationship is and what are they trying to prove? It almost feels like they're over compensating. But maybe I'm just cynical haha.

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I'm not easily peeved, but I do get annoyed by people who seem proud of being unable to handle mathematics. Women catch a lot of the stereotypical blame for this one, but I have seen plenty of men who can't even add a column of numbers and don't recognize it as a deficiency. I can understand being overwhelmed by differential equations and non-Euclidean geometry. That's the stuff for professionals and true masochists. Basic arithmetic, foundational statistics, and the ability to interpret graphs, though, are everyday survival skills for adult life.  People who can't grasp them are easy prey for con artists, shady accountants, and other purveyors of empty promises. There's no pride in saying, "Oh, I'm just not good at that stuff."

I am convinced that everyone reaches her own level of comfort with math and has trouble with anything more difficult. I certainly know where my own limit is.  What annoys me are people who settle for something far short of the limit and laugh it off -- especially women who reinforce the stereotype that being good with numbers is somehow unfeminine.

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38 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm not easily peeved, but I do get annoyed by people who seem proud of being unable to handle mathematics. Women catch a lot of the stereotypical blame for this one, but I have seen plenty of men who can't even add a column of numbers and don't recognize it as a deficiency. I can understand being overwhelmed by differential equations and non-Euclidean geometry. That's the stuff for professionals and true masochists. Basic arithmetic, foundational statistics, and the ability to interpret graphs, though, are everyday survival skills for adult life.  People who can't grasp them are easy prey for con artists, shady accountants, and other purveyors of empty promises. There's no pride in saying, "Oh, I'm just not good at that stuff."

I am convinced that everyone reaches her own level of comfort with math and has trouble with anything more difficult. I certainly know where my own limit is.  What annoys me are people who settle for something far short of the limit and laugh it off -- especially women who reinforce the stereotype that being good with numbers is somehow unfeminine.

Introduce them to Katherine Johnson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Johnson

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3 hours ago, IvyLarae said:

is people IMing me asking me why I left, that their sad to see me go or better yet, they start TALKING ABOUT all the things they want to do with me..... like.....

 

jrFBPta.png

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