Kiera Clutterbuck Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Orwar said: Should being bad at flirting be illegal? Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? Should one formally turn over a written declaration of intent to the guardian of whomever they seek to woo? Should you be incarcerated for trying to compliment someone if they take offense by it? Castration is always an option. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: Not really talking about the law here, but yes at least in my country a fear of bodily harm must be present for a verbal assault to legally occur. However, if some stranger walks up to me and says "Wanna Go F" I actually do feel bodily harm could be immanent, because when someone is lacking in boundaries and social graces to that degree who knows what they might do! Obviously they are not right in the head in major ways. Of course, in SL, I just roll my eyes and TP away. As a survivor of rape, anyone approaching me is going to cause immediate fear of bodily harm. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: As a survivor of rape, anyone approaching me is going to cause immediate fear of bodily harm. I’m glad you survived. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Has anyone here suggested that any of this be governed by legislation or law? It has been casually referred to as verbal assault and sexual harassment, which are real criminal offenses. Am I not allowed to push back by taking a stance against legal terms being thrown around haphazardly by expanding the width of the topic to cover the actual meanings of those terms and how the two, in my opinion, should remain separate things? 1 minute ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: However, if some stranger walks up to me and says "Wanna Go F" I actually do feel bodily harm could be immanent, because when someone is lacking in boundaries and social graces to that degree who knows what they might do! I feel the same about people wearing sandals with socks. Seriously though, it's a pretty far step from being rude and lewd, asking a stranger if they want to get intimate, and actually using physical force to enforce it. Depending on the circumstances (and geography), such behavior could be a misdemeanor that might rightly call for correction - and that's fair. But the law can only act on what has been done, or what is beyond any reasonable doubt being prepared to be done; cooking explosives in your bath tub is beyond any reasonable doubt preparation for acts of violence, blurting out a lewd comment to a stranger isn't. 16 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: 24 minutes ago, Orwar said: Should being bad at flirting be illegal? Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? Should one formally turn over a written declaration of intent to the guardian of whomever they seek to woo? Should you be incarcerated for trying to compliment someone if they take offense by it? Castration is always an option. How is it that it's all right to laugh at this, of suggesting mutilating men because they 'scare you'? It's absolutely absurd. How can you possibly expect any man to ever take you seriously about your fears, when you suggest castration as a method of dissuading unwanted verbal interaction? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Clutterbuck Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Orwar said: 30 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: 38 minutes ago, Orwar said: Should being bad at flirting be illegal? Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? Should one formally turn over a written declaration of intent to the guardian of whomever they seek to woo? Should you be incarcerated for trying to compliment someone if they take offense by it? Castration is always an option. How is it that it's all right to laugh at this, of suggesting mutilating men because they 'scare you'? It's absolutely absurd. How can you possibly expect any man to ever take you seriously about your fears, when you suggest castration as a method of dissuading unwanted verbal interaction? That was not a serious post. I was simply upping your hyperbole with even greater hyperbole, as a joke. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 18 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: Depends on the outcome, Love. An attractive woman is going to be propositioned. At this point, there IS no "victim". Women who act as if they are victims in this situation don't get my sympathy. Handle it, dearie, or switch to a Tiny avatar. If she turns him down and he doesn't take "no" for an answer, then yeah, that's on him. In RL? I feel the same way. When I'm in SL and I'm at an adult venue or dressed obviously erotic (sometimes I like to wear lingerie or latex just because), I'm not suprised when men attempt to flirt with me, ask for sex etc. Because I'm in a context, where it fits. Doesn't mean I can't complain about the lazy, disgusting and entitled ways most of them do it. Also doesn't mean that men will not act this way, when I'm just chilling at a beach. Its not my job to have an unattractive avatar, just to scare away the creeps. RL is...more difficult, as I don't have the protection and freedom SL gives me. I can't turn into an adoreable little forest creature and I don't want to be 'doomed' to experiance indecent behavior, because I happen to look average attractive or wear a summer dress in July. I expect men to act like they got a brain. There is behavior, that is simply always unwanted. I don't take a "I couldn't help it" as an excuse. Doesn't mean I curl up in a corner and pity myself (if you associate that with "victim") or that I'm suprised, if men (and women) act in a negative way in certain situations. But at the same time I'm not "asking for it" with how I look like or what I wear and if I feel a comment is nasty and oversteps boundaries, I don't accept that my apperance is used as an argument to why I don't deserve basic manners and respect. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I’m glad you survived. My will to live was just barely enough stronger strong enough than the desire to end the misery. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: In response to all of you (Zeta is just the latest) who are peeved by guys who take sexy clothing/attendance at sex venues/nudity/erotic picture collections as an invitation to proposition them... I am tempted to berate you. All of this has me thinking about a diver who puts chum in the water to attract sharks, and is then surprised when one of them bites his leg off. I mean, you're teasing the wild animals, ladies. You should know better, and you really should be willing to accept at least some of the blame. On the other hand, I have to admit that a lot of the wild animals require absolutely NO encouragement. I have been propositioned while completely and modestly dressed, standing behind a speaker's podium giving a lecture. As long as your avatar is female, you're going to be propositioned in SL. Usually, according to the law of averages, in a boring/awkward/rude/ manner, too. My attitude is, it's always nice to be asked...whether or not you have any intention of accepting is quite another matter. I've quoted this post in full because the rest of it, and your subsequent additions, do something towards mitigating the bolded comparison, which is as insanely offensive as it is tired and overused. Based on how I've seen you post before this, I like to hope that you don't actually really wish to imply that men are stupid, slavering, instinctual beasts who lack agency and aren't fully responsible for their actions if there's a pretty lady involved. (I'll leave the corresponding comparison of women to "chum", or some other type of dead, passive, aromatic meat, aside for the moment.) I also hope that you don't really mean that it's "always" nice to be asked, even if the asking is in a "rude manner". If you've never had a truly rude, graphic, quite disgusting proposition in SL or RL framed as a question (I'm going waaaaay beyond "would you pull me if I'd just thrown up?" territory), then lucky you. I have and I can assure you it wasn't "nice". There are too many people already who claim that sexual harassment and abuse are compliments, and that victims are at least partly responsible for the perpetrators' actions.* If you really aren't one of them, and don't wish to be associated with them, please choose your comparisons more carefully. *I'm fudging this a bit to allow for the fact that there are indeed cases of women harassing and abusing men too, but I think we all know where the gender slope on this generally lies. Edited July 12, 2019 by Amina Sopwith 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: Not really talking about the law here, but yes at least in my country a fear of bodily harm must be present for a verbal assault to legally occur. However, if some stranger walks up to me and says "Wanna Go F" I actually do feel bodily harm could be immanent, because when someone is lacking in boundaries and social graces to that degree who knows what they might do! Obviously they are not right in the head in major ways. Of course, in SL, I just roll my eyes and TP away. That's the main thing, right? There can be no physical assault in SL because we can always get away. That's why I feel so safe in SL. And if verbal assault requires an element of fear of bodily harm, then there can be no verbal assault in SL either. So we can be peeved by crude and rude attempts to initiate virtual sex, but none of it rises to the level of assault. Since it's been established that these crude and rude attempts happen to even the most conservatively dressed avatars, there's no sense in debating whether anyone asked for it or not. A simple no is really all you need to get most of these idiots to back off. If that doesn't work we all know how to mute. Those with land rights can eject and ban as needed. Those without can report to those who do. I would love to see classes offered in basic flirting techniques, there is certainly a need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: And if verbal assault requires an element of fear of bodily harm, then there can be no verbal assault in SL either. It doesn't and yes, verbal assault can occur in SL or anywhere online or RL. Edited July 12, 2019 by Selene Gregoire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) I was driven off a predominantly male forum once by the endless death and rape threats. Of course none of them could actually rape or kill me but jeez, it's unpleasant and, yes, rather frightening. If they said that they'd rape and/or murder me if they ever got the chance and thought they could get away with it, why shouldn't I believe them? If what they said about themselves was true, they were generally normal people with jobs, relationships and social circles, which is far more terrifying than if they were all easily identifiable by their webbed feet, scales and permanent residence in an underground tavern. It does, after a while, leave you wondering....who? Edited July 12, 2019 by Amina Sopwith 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said: As a survivor of rape, anyone approaching me is going to cause immediate fear of bodily harm. I'm also glad you survived. I survived one myself. And I agree, for RL instances, that fear is always present, but not in SL. 6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: It doesn't and yes, verbal assault can occur in SL or anywhere online or RL. I will grant that a verbal assault can occur. But I don't think an unwelcome proposition qualifies as an assault. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Vandyke Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: And if verbal assault requires an element of fear of bodily harm, then there can be no verbal assault in SL either. Words can be quite harmful too when directed at someone sensitive to them. Not just saying something nasty, rude or shocking, but on a deeper psychical way. An abusive relationship does not always have to be a physically abusive one. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: It doesn't and yes, verbal assault can occur in SL or anywhere online or RL. An assault literally means, Make a Physical Attack on. No one can Physically hurt you, Verbally. I would say the better word would be, that the person verbally harassed you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said: An assault literally means, Make a Physical Attack on. No one can Physically hurt you, Verbally. I would say the better word would be, that the person verbally harassed you. In the UK, the legal definition of assault is when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force. In other words, if you act in such a way as to make someone think that you're about to hurt them. Battery is the actual application of force. And hence offences such as assault occasioning actual bodily harm. (Or, as it's known in Gor, foreplay.) In real life everyday terms, we do tend to use assault to mean actual application of force, but legally they do have different meanings. I don't know how it works elsewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: I was driven off a predominantly male forum once by the endless death and rape threats. Of course none of them could actually rape or kill me but jeez, it's unpleasant and, yes, rather frightening. Try playing a machismo, dorito and Mountain Dew code Red fueled game like Call of Duty where just hearing a female voice drives them into a frenzy. God forbid you’re actually good and have good stats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: In the UK, the legal definition of assault is when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force. In other words, if you act in such a way as to make someone think that you're about to hurt them. Battery is the actual application of force. And hence offences such as assault occasioning actual bodily harm. (Or, as it's known in Gor, foreplay.) In real life everyday terms, we do tend to use assault to mean actual application of force, but legally they do have different meanings. I don't know how it works elsewhere. But you really can't call uttering a threat to cause harm as an assault. Words can't hurt someone physically, like a fist to the face. I am not invalidating anyone's harassment/bullying. But you really need to understand, that if I were to assault someone. I am trying to inflict physical harm, or forcefully put my hands on someone. Here in Canada, if you are charged with Assault, Assault with a Weapon, Assault causing Bodily Harm, or Sexual Assault. One has to put their hands on the person, or cause physical harm to someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) to @halebore Aeon I've been misquoted: I didn't say that, I replied to @Selene Gregoire who said that Edited July 12, 2019 by kali Wylder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said: But you really can't call uttering a threat to cause harm as an assault. Well, you can if assault is defined as acting in such a way as to make someone fear immediate violence. In SL, of course, it's not possible to commit actual violence on someone's person, but if this is the definition of assault - and in the English legal system, it is - then yes, threats can be defined as assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: Well, you can if assault is defined as acting in such a way as to make someone fear immediate violence. In SL, of course, it's not possible to commit actual violence on someone's person, but if this is the definition of assault - and in the English legal system, it is - then yes, threats can be defined as assault. I just don't see why that would be called an assault as well, they are two separate crimes. Uttering a threat to cause Harm, and Assault Causing bodily harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said: I just don't see why that would be called an assault as well, they are two separate crimes. Uttering a threat to cause Harm, and Assault Causing bodily harm. Well yes, they are separate crimes, and if you run at someone with your fists raised screaming that you're going to kill them, and then beat them up, you're guilty of both. But you don't need to assault someone to commit battery. When battery results in injury, a choice of charge is available. "Assault" is usually used in place of "battery" in everyday parlance here, but legally they are different things. How it works elsewhere, I couldn't say. It's a bit of a moot point within the context of SL, but I'm just making the point that, here at least, assault doesn't actually mean what many people think it does. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Knoller Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 In the US, the assault definition includes an intentional act that causes another person to fear for his or her safety, even if the person is not physically harmed. Battery is the act of harming. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 57 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said: Words can be quite harmful too when directed at someone sensitive to them. Not just saying something nasty, rude or shocking, but on a deeper psychical way. An abusive relationship does not always have to be a physically abusive one. I agree, but we were not talking about abusive relationships, we were talking about unwelcome sexual propositions and whether or not they were the equivalent of sexual assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Huntsman Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: I agree, but we were not talking about abusive relationships, we were talking about unwelcome sexual propositions and whether or not they were the equivalent of sexual assaults. That would be Sexual Harassment. Sexual Assault is clearly defined as: n act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will. Making a suggestion for one to have sex with someone, clearly sounds like sexual harassment, not sexual assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: Castration is always an option. How about an orchiectomy, instead? Keeping it classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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