Fionalein Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: You are misunderstanding me. "...anyone who wears a bikini to a beach, just for an example, that it is basically their fault if they get cat called, hit on, unwanted advances..." no, it's not "their fault" and I am not suggesting that they "cover up". I AM saying that this is human nature, and it's silly to act all offended when it happens. I like looking attractive, in SL and (as far as possible) in RL. I like attention. I expect and require such attention to be polite. If it's not, and the giver doesn't accept my "no", then yes, it is HIS FAULT. "...or even worse, assaulted that its their fault because of what they may or may not be wearing and covering up." It is absolutely NOT their fault, nor did I ever say so. Sadly propositions SL usually are as follows: [t=0]hey babe [t=30s]how R U ? [t=120s]Teleport invite to random Adult venue which is very annoying, or Wouldn't you want to become human and join me on the nude beach? where I do not even know anymore if just way too daring or just socially inept or both... Edited July 12, 2019 by Fionalein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said: Usually, according to the law of averages, in a boring/awkward/rude/ manner, too. The law of averages must have run out for me. I had a drop in today. He got the boot very quickly and I managed to keep from falling off my chair laughing. He had this huge movie camera on his shoulder and was running a humping animation, like he thought he was going to jump my bones and film it at the same time. Guys, you're wasting your time dropping in on me in my skybox. I'm very quick on the ban trigger. Edited July 11, 2019 by Selene Gregoire 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 10 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: In response to all of you (Zeta is just the latest) who are peeved by guys who take sexy clothing/attendance at sex venues/nudity/erotic picture collections as an invitation to proposition them... I am tempted to berate you. All of this has me thinking about a diver who puts chum in the water to attract sharks, and is then surprised when one of them bites his leg off. I mean, you're teasing the wild animals, ladies. You should know better, and you really should be willing to accept at least some of the blame. I actually agree (and emphasis mine). Sure, it gets old extremely fast and it does still irritate me, but I do accept that initial advances are justified, and so I simply politely turn them down. It's not victim blaming to say that dressing or acting provocatively increases your chances of getting hit on. Where I draw the line - and it seems you do too, which is good - is anything beyond that simple pickup line. When propositions turn into entitlement, harassment, abuse or worse, I wash my hands of all blame. No one deserves the kind of abuse I and others regularly get from rejected men and women, nor is persistence after the first "no thanks" my fault. In short; there's no harm in the asking, so long as the no is respected. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Vandyke Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 12 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: In response to all of you (Zeta is just the latest) who are peeved by guys who take sexy clothing/attendance at sex venues/nudity/erotic picture collections as an invitation to proposition them... I am tempted to berate you. All of this has me thinking about a diver who puts chum in the water to attract sharks, and is then surprised when one of them bites his leg off. I mean, you're teasing the wild animals, ladies. You should know better, and you really should be willing to accept at least some of the blame. To a level I agree. I mean, the intention of making erotic "art" (I say art, but I do not consider myself an artist, just the lack of a better word) is first because I enjoy making it myself. And also when publishing it (on Flickr) you want people to enjoy and respond to it, maybe even be aroused by it. Same when dressing very sexy, I can expect a response in a way of a head turning, a look. Perfectly fine IMO. But the level of response makes quite a difference. A compliment on work, a look, all ok. Harassment (in a RL situation) or as here, Hi, you make sexy pics lets f#$k!" is creepy and IMO uncivilized. Or would you consider it perfectly normal and acceptable behavior if makers of erotic movies, or who post for example sexy manga/hentai/whatever pictures on Deviant Art, are being approached by other: Hey you make erotic stuff, lets f^&k? It happens, but that does not make it normal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Vandyke Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said: In short; there's no harm in the asking, so long as the no is respected. If they would say: Hi I admire your work, would you be into bla bla. It would be no problem, and I would politely say no and explain why. But the assumption: "You make sexy stuff, so we should f%6k" is what I find creepy and inappropriate. And that is the kind of stuff that pops up regularly (from both men as women btw) It does not freak me out or gravely insult me, it just annoys me, and that what this topic is about. What are my pet peeves 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelindaN Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 What they just don't seem to understand is its about the chat. The neanderthals are obvious, and can be weeded out easily. Then it gets harder. The chat can be interesting, but then goes off in various directions. The "tp to my bed after a five minute chat" guys are doomed to fail. Some don't do that but soon make it obvious that they are experienced vets, and their attitude comes across loud and clear. Hard to give an example but I do depend on the vibes I get. The better few percent, don't give any sexual nuances, and seem happy to chat on....... I'm seeing one guy just now who is in that top percent. I met him at the beach. He knows I'm a free spirit here, but he's taken me flying, sailing and horse riding. He's good company, and yeah, we have fun together. But this is so rare in SL in my limited experience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: In response to all of you (Zeta is just the latest) who are peeved by guys who take sexy clothing/attendance at sex venues/nudity/erotic picture collections as an invitation to proposition them... I am tempted to berate you. All of this has me thinking about a diver who puts chum in the water to attract sharks, and is then surprised when one of them bites his leg off. I mean, you're teasing the wild animals, ladies. You should know better, and you really should be willing to accept at least some of the blame. ... Wild animals? I say, were I a more petty-minded individual, I rather might have attempted to claim offense by such bluntness towards my gender. But I agree. If you go to an adult-themed venue wearing a skirt that doesn't even begin to cover your buttocks, you shouldn't be surprised when you draw attention to yourself - and there are many reasons for a person's advances to be perceived as clumsy failures; language barriers, cultural barriers, a lack of etiquette and ignorance of good form. It's not like women are better behaved in such situations either, I've received some pretty outrageous propositions simply for wearing a kilt (and it's even knee-length!), or indeed whilst wearing 'plain' clothes (as if I'd ever wear anything plain, bah - preposterous! But you know, clothes with full body coverage). Besides, quite often when you do read a person's profile and find a Flickr link, you may think you've been accidentally re-directed to a pornography site. There's nothing wrong, in my mind, with artistic nudity or erotic themes as a form of expression (I do that a lot, myself) - but wherever one might draw the line, there's an abundance of unequivocal smut around. It's not an excuse for bad behavior or sexual harassment, but it may well be interpreted as being free-spirited which, to someone 'on the hunt', may indeed seem an appealing trace to follow up. And I get it, the millionth stranger randomly asking 'u wanna bump?' is annoying, but it's either because they're desperate and asking everyone in the room the same thing, in which case it'd be silly to take it personally, or that they find you appealing and simply don't have the capacity to formulate a more interesting or eloquent line to try getting your attention. It's easy enough to say no, or to simply say nothing and let them go away on their own - and if they get pushy, it's easy enough to block people. Besides, most venues frown upon harassment and will be happy to boot someone out of the sim if they're bothering you. Edited July 12, 2019 by Orwar 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, BelindaN said: What they just don't seem to understand is its about the chat. The neanderthals are obvious, and can be weeded out easily. Then it gets harder. The chat can be interesting, but then goes off in various directions. The "tp to my bed after a five minute chat" guys are doomed to fail. Some don't do that but soon make it obvious that they are experienced vets, and their attitude comes across loud and clear. Hard to give an example but I do depend on the vibes I get. The better few percent, don't give any sexual nuances, and seem happy to chat on....... Oh lawd, those types are so obnoxious and transparent. "I've put in enough conversation-coins into this vending-machine-woman, why haven't I received my sex yet?!" Dagger emoji 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 I cannot tell you how annoyed I am at agreeing with @Orwar. @Lindal Kidd as well, though I'm not at all annoyed about that. 😉 I absolutely consider myself a strong feminist, and have argued rather vehemently in other threads about not victim-blaming, but I really think we need to stop conflating being hit on with being assaulted. If some guy comes up to me, anywhere, and says the "U wnt f***?" line, it's annoying, but it's not assault and I'm not a victim. If anything, he's a victim of his abject stupidity. If I say, "Thank you, no," and he persists, that's a different story and all bets are off. I'm also perfectly capable of defending myself in these situations so as not to be victimized by a moron. This isn't a problem at most of the adult beaches I go to. Most of them have a group join fee that tends to weed out the ickier ones. Some slip through, but a quick IM to a mod will usually get them removed. The region owners don't want to be associated with that type of harassment. Women are going to get hit on, sometimes rather vulgarly. Men are, too. We're not victims until the idiots take it way past merely hitting on us. 10 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Hmmm. Apparently verbal assault and verbal abuse don't exist for some people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 36 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Hmmm. Apparently verbal assault and verbal abuse don't exist for some people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just to cover my own ass: 5 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said: Where I draw the line - and it seems you do too, which is good - is anything beyond that simple pickup line. When propositions turn into entitlement, harassment, abuse or worse, I wash my hands of all blame. No one deserves the kind of abuse I and others regularly get from rejected men and women, nor is persistence after the first "no thanks" my fault. I am not one of "some people". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Clutterbuck Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Approaching others in a crude or crass manner is a kind of verbal assault, or at the very least it's rude. There are more delicate ways to 'hit' on others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) I don't think one should be surprised or offended by approaches in response to entering a sex-based sim or publishing erotic/pornographic photographs. But propositions should be respectful and polite, and any refusal should be accepted at once without issue. Edited July 12, 2019 by Amina Sopwith 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: I don't think one should be surprised or offended by approaches in response to entering a sex-based sim or publishing erotic/pornographic photographs. But propositions should be respectful and polite, and any refusal should be accepted at once without issue. If I am going there to do some shopping (which I have done when the store just happens to be on an adult sim but not necessarily an exclusively adult store) no, I don't expect to be accosted. I'm there to shop, not for sex or publishing erotic images that I don't even take. Sex isn't why I joined SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Ah ha, this reminds me of the first time I went to an RL sex club. Some guy old enough to be my grandfather sidled up to me, put his hand on my back and said, in a received pronunciation accent with no irony, "You are such an attractive young lady. Would you do me the honour of going doggystyle with me?" No, but I love your manners, sir! (And he left me alone with no issues at all when I declined. Sex clubs have far more respect for consent than ordinary ones.) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Haven't we just had this conversation? I agree with most of what has been said above by Amina, Beth, Keira, Ayela, and others, although there are some nuances of difference. I do wonder -- I'm not sure of my own views on this to be honest -- if producing erotic/pornographic pics is quite the same as wearing something that more-or-less announces that you are sexually available? Clothing is a personal statement about your identity, mood, etc. Does "art" or photography, in a similar way? If I write an erotic poem, does that mean that I'm announcing to the world that I'm ready to go? I'm not sure that I think it does. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 I’m not surprised or offended when I get hit on anywhere in SL. That’s why I post the dumbest stuff in the “Lines that annoy you the most” thread. What I’m not buying though is because I’m at some venue the way I’m dressed should dictate how much or the way I get hit on. I mean, if I’m at a beach wearing a bikini, um, me wearing a bikini is appropriate. If I’m at a dance club, I’m probably going to be wearing a freakum dress. How much freak is in the freakum is debatable, but it’s certainly not anymore revealing than something you would see at a real life club or bar. If you want to say “Well everybody knows beaches and clubs are pickup spots in SL” that would actually be more acceptable than, “It was the way you were dressed.” 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Haven't we just had this conversation? I agree with most of what has been said above by Amina, Beth, Keira, Ayela, and others, although there are some nuances of difference. I do wonder -- I'm not sure of my own views on this to be honest -- if producing erotic/pornographic pics is quite the same as wearing something that more-or-less announces that you are sexually available? Clothing is a personal statement about your identity, mood, etc. Does "art" or photography, in a similar way? If I write an erotic poem, does that mean that I'm announcing to the world that I'm ready to go? I'm not sure that I think it does. No, it doesn't. Not any more than running around half naked in your own bedroom is an open invitation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 43 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: Approaching others in a crude or crass manner is a kind of verbal assault, or at the very least it's rude. No, it's not a verbal assault to approach another in a less than charming manner. If you threaten someone, or if you refuse to back off when rejected, it may be perceived as sexual harassment or verbal assault, if your initial pick-up line is in extremely poor taste (i.e. overtly sexual or obscene in nature) it may be deemed lewd or lascivious conduct. What people think people should and shouldn't do isn't law, it's social convention. Looking at it rationally, sure, a person who's rude to strangers probably won't have much luck with making friends - but then again, it's not that uncommon for people to dig the 'bad boy' stereotype, and some perceive such behavior as confidence, risk-taking and stubbornness - in fact, studies show that male psychopaths, narcissists and machiavellians are the most successful archetypes of men seeking short-term sexual relations. Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: I do wonder -- I'm not sure of my own views on this to be honest -- if producing erotic/pornographic pics is quite the same as wearing something that more-or-less announces that you are sexually available? Compare it to people working in the adult entertainment industry. If you come across your favorite porno actor/actress in the street, would you presume that they would be open to a lewd invitation from you, based on that they do that for a living? Rationally, probably not - but that doesn't stop people from approaching them (so much so that it's commonly brought up as a major issue in the business). We're human beings, and unfortunately we aren't always entirely rational creatures - we're impulsive and largely act on instinct. Whilst I'd love to live in a perfect world where no one is ever rude to each other, that's just not going to happen in this world anytime soon. Sometimes we just have to deal with the world we live in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Orwar said: Rationally, probably not - but that doesn't stop people from approaching them (so much so that it's commonly brought up as a major issue in the business). We're human beings, and unfortunately we aren't always entirely rational creatures - we're impulsive and largely act on instinct. Understanding that people will do something is not the same as finding it acceptable, or simply shrugging one's shoulders about it. We can agree that people will steal stuff, assault people, start wars, etc., while still condemning those kinds of behaviours, and working to find ways to make them at least somewhat less common. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Isn’t this a pet peeve thread? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: Understanding that people will do something is not the same as finding it acceptable, or simply shrugging one's shoulders about it. We can agree that people will steal stuff, assault people, start wars, etc., while still condemning those kinds of behaviours, and working to find ways to make them at least somewhat less common. Quite right, but we've got to draw a line somewhere of what's condemned by social convention and what's condemned by law. People are very quick to pull the sexual harassment card, and rely on the law to back them up - which you simply shouldn't have to. Should being bad at flirting be illegal? Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? Should one formally turn over a written declaration of intent to the guardian of whomever they seek to woo? Should you be incarcerated for trying to compliment someone if they take offense by it? What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a rational solution to curing people of acting irrationally - and I don't think using law is a suitable means of drawing a line in verbal human interaction, beyond what we already have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Just now, Orwar said: Quite right, but we've got to draw a line somewhere of what's condemned by social convention and what's condemned by law. People are very quick to pull the sexual harassment card, and rely on the law to back them up - which you simply shouldn't have to. Should being bad at flirting be illegal? Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? Should one formally turn over a written declaration of intent to the guardian of whomever they seek to woo? Should you be incarcerated for trying to compliment someone if they take offense by it? What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a rational solution to curing people of acting irrationally - and I don't think using law is a suitable means of drawing a line in verbal human interaction, beyond what we already have. Has anyone here suggested that any of this be governed by legislation or law? If they have, I've missed it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Orwar said: Should we put flirting on the curriculum to ensure that everyone is taught a respectable way of trying to get attention from someone? ...points to her forum signature. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Clutterbuck Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, Orwar said: 1 hour ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said: Approaching others in a crude or crass manner is a kind of verbal assault, or at the very least it's rude. No, it's not a verbal assault to approach another in a less than charming manner. If you threaten someone, or if you refuse to back off when rejected, it may be perceived as sexual harassment or verbal assault, if your initial pick-up line is in extremely poor taste (i.e. overtly sexual or obscene in nature) it may be deemed lewd or lascivious conduct. Not really talking about the law here, but yes at least in my country a fear of bodily harm must be present for a verbal assault to legally occur. However, if some stranger walks up to me and says "Wanna Go F" I actually do feel bodily harm could be immanent, because when someone is lacking in boundaries and social graces to that degree who knows what they might do! Obviously they are not right in the head in major ways. Of course, in SL, I just roll my eyes and TP away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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