Second Life on Steam?

[Callum Meriman]

VR in 1938!  

Edited December 16, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Chic Aeon]

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Anyway... it's not that there are no Sansar adopters. They just don't show much hope of becoming profitable. As I mentioned above, Sansar's main attraction seems to be a whole lotta space for free -- sorta OpenSim for head-mounted displays. The economy is supposed to work by folks buying lots of stuff and the Lab taking a cut much larger than in SL. That's a good model -- as long as there are folks buying lots of stuff. But if it's principally populated by non-profits, hard-luck cases, and a few hundred cross-subsidizing Atlas creators, there's just not going to be enough of that buying stuff to keep it afloat. That's not a criticism of the business model, per se, it's more about which adopters it seems likely to attract.

The lab no longer takes a cut from the STORE. Instead they take a larger  cut than before from cashing out. This in effect hurt the content creators.  The dollar ratio went from 100 to 1 to 250 to 1.  Always good to keep apprised :D.

[Chic Aeon]

5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That's another perspective on Sansar's viability of course. If we forget about the SL comparasion and stipulate that the basic idea behind it is sound, there is still not a single thing Sansar can do that Sinespace can't do better, LL has yet to announce a single upgrade to Sansar that Sinespace hasn't already implemented and Sinespace has quite a few rather important features LL doesn't seem to have even noticed yet.

I am not sure that is correct any longer. MUCH has changed in the last few months.  Sinespace doesn't seem to be doing any better. I haven't been in for awhile. I do know that most of the content creators that I know that went over there --- left after a couple of months.   

I will say the LL is definitely not interested in the AVATAR portion of the equation. Maybe eventually but not now. It is NOT that we (almost all) haven't told them how important that it. They just have other priorities.   

There are for sure pluses and minuses in Sansar just like in SL.  Things have REALLY changed a lot though in the lat few months. 

 

[Callum Meriman]

9 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

They just have other priorities.

I wonder what Ebbe's vision is right now! Pewpew might suggest he is hoping people will create games.

Quote

Project PewPew

• This is a whole suite of APIs and features that will allow for creators to explore gun-play in Sansar!
• Scripts can now detect VR inputs, mouse clicks and what the player is targeting when any input is hit.
• Even more script APIs for Ray/shape casting have been added.
• Grab Points can be toggled to stay held when picked up (so you don’t have to hold your pewpewer the whole time)
• Check out the new Game.Gun, Game.Target and Selector simple scripts to add these features to your scene!
• Mouselook mode: allows desktop users to switch to a mode where you do not need to click and hold right-mouse to look around. You can instead hit the ESC key and just move your mouse round.
  • This a toggle-able feature
  • While active it will disable the menu

 

 

[animats]

2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Sinespace doesn't seem to be doing any better.

It's not. I just went over there, which I don't do often. About a dozen users, 10 in the welcome area.

Cloud City. Sinespace's steampunk region. The rendering is good, but the build is not. The build is about the size of one SL region. Nothing works. The closed doors don't open. The buildings with open doors are empty inside. The place has no visible function.

There are some big outdoor builds, but they don't do much. Two racetracks. There's an experimental 5km by 5km outdoor build, but I don't have enough RAM to load it and move around. So Sinespace does not have scale under control.

There's an new form of griefing. The desert racetrack has some blindingly bright object, and the screen will go almost all white if you face it.

I haven't tried the creator tools.

 

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

I wonder what Ebbe's vision is right now! Pewpew might suggest he is hoping people will create games.

 

 

As far as I know that was always the "endgame" so far as The Lab was concerned, so yes, enabling more gaming ability seems to be the main focus for now.

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, animats said:

 

 

Your pants are on back-to-front.

[Qie Niangao]

11 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

The lab no longer takes a cut from the STORE. Instead they take a larger  cut than before from cashing out. This in effect hurt the content creators.  The dollar ratio went from 100 to 1 to 250 to 1.  Always good to keep apprised :D.

Thanks. Huh, I'd have never expected that. So different from the app store model I'd assumed they were following to monetize third-party IP for the platform. (I wouldn't think the exchange rate matters except maybe to a very few who already held the game currency, and I'm not clear why this would be net negative for content creators many of whom presumably never cash out anyway, but I wonder how it benefits the Lab. Something something FinCEN something? It would seem to make hope of profit for the platform operator even more remote than before.)

[Luna Bliss]

17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Those are definitely very interesting uses for virtual reality in the future and they don't depend on VR headsets either - they are just as interesting for traditional screen viewing. But there are a number of requirements:

• Low hardware requirements. Businesses and institutions don't want to promote their services/products only to the few game/tech/graphics enthusiasts, they want the mass market.
• Cross platform compatibility. For the same reason as above.
• Fast load time. 20 seconds is pushing the limit of potential customers' patience. a minute is way too long.
• No special software. A special browser plugin might be acceptable but anything beyond that - forget it.
• Open access. No need to register an account to join.

Those are absolute requirements and a service that can't meet them all, doesn't chance a chance in this market.

* As to your first point, needing the mass market for success via low hardware requirements, I've wondered if LL is (at times) in a bit of a bubble in terms of appraising how the rest of us live. To many a headset (even at the lowered cost of near $300 usd) is a big expense, not to mention mid-priced PC's over the cheapest. However, prices are coming down. Medium priced PC's these days (800 to 1000 usd) can access VR, and eventually everyone will need to replace their PC -- I do wonder if the VR-ready PC's will eventually be very common or even low-end PC's. But how many of the masses does Sansar need to succeed? Gaming platforms are wildly successful without the masses. Yet "Wordpress for VR" does seem to denote they expect a lot of people doesn't it?
* Fast load time can be important for some, yes. Fortunately I never wait for more than 13 seconds for Sansar Experiences to load so haven't had that frustration, but I know not everyone can afford a high internet speed. However, those who play games @ Oculus, Vive, or Steam are accustomed to very long download times...some of those games @ gaming platforms have taken 5 minutes for me...and it does seem Sansar is basing their decisions on what others who are accustomed to gaming or VR experience vs us SL people, and so don't think download time is really a problem.
* Registering accounts and downloading software are problems for sure that would turn some away. Once again though, people who play games or go to Oculus, Vive, or Steam expect proprietary software. Also,  I imagine if the needed content is part of a school curriculum or training effort this would not be a problem. The casual surfer on the intenet might be put off by that unless it was something they really wanted to experience. SL'rs certainly complain, but they tend to see everything from 'SL eyes'. Once I began to experience the gaming world it changed my perspective on so many issues regarding Sansar.

You mentioned flatscreens could accomplish certain ideas regarding educational/business benefits as well as VR could. Very true in many cases -- I designed a lot of projects for educational purposes as well as sims to enhance various businesses so can see that well. But, in most all cases VR would do it better, even moreso in training applications. But even with an activity like viewing furniture there are micro 3d perspectives that one just isn't able to experience with flatscreen experiences like SL. You would probably have to experience VR to get a better sense of how proprioception can be vital. Have you experienced VR? Oh ChinRey you just HAVE to ;0 Did I mention yet that I love VR? lol

Anyway, it's loads of fun speculating on the future, and will be exciting to see what develops throughout the coming years. Bring on the Minority Report PC's...

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

As to your first point, needing the mass market for success via low hardware requirements, I've wondered if LL is (at times) in a bit of a bubble in terms of appraising how the rest of us live.

It's actually a common problem amongst game devs generally...

See, the "game dev" sits in the office the company provides him with, and in front of him is... his company issue office pc...

A crapton of RAM, a $2000 "dev quality" gfx card, multiple 2 TB drives in a raid array, and a cpu powerful enough to take over NASA.

And software! Visual C-- compilers, multiple $3000 3D modeling and rendering apps, $500 image editor, and so on, all running under the top of the line PRO operating system.

You're sitting at a machine that cost *somebody else* $20,000, and assume that's NORMAL, then you try to decide on "minimum hardware requirements" for the new game.

...

One games company, when designing a space based game, set their "min spec" to a level where, at launch date, only about 5% of PC's in use could run it at more than Minimum graphics settings... It wasn't even a very good game, less than 3 months after launch the $60 game was only to be found in the "3 games for $7.50" bargain bin.

Another more successful game (comparatively speaking) boasted that it fully supported the features of what was at the time, a $1500 Game devs only grade gfx card, however the player base for the franchise, most of whom were using cards in the $100 - $250 range, weren't impressed with the new laggy 'supa kewl grafix', the title in question almost killed off the franchise.

...

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've wondered if LL is (at times) in a bit of a bubble in terms of appraising how the rest of us live.

Of course they are, they still seem to think people will spend vast amounts of money on Vom-Cam to look at Experimental Conceptual Art Installations, and early digital mockups of next year's Mercedes Coupe Concept Car, before a friendly game of "bump the ball" with the other 2 people online...

And the reason LL's vision for Project Stupid has consistently FAILED to appeal to SL users is that LL STILL don't seem to understand who uses SL, what they use it for, or why, even after 15 bloody years.
 

[chibiusa Ling]

20 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

before a friendly game of "bump the ball" with the other 2 people online...

Gratz Klytyna you have the great honour of being todays resident that managed to break me with a single sentence. 😂

Edited December 16, 2018 by chibiusa Ling

[chibiusa Ling]

22 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

........

Just a add-on thought. I think you are being very unfair to Sansar...have you forgotten we can now JUMP over there.....shame on you 🤾‍♀️

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

... However, prices are coming down. Medium priced PC's these days (800 to 1000 usd) can access VR, and eventually everyone will need to replace their PC...

Maybe not. The PC market is shrinking as more folks come to rely on phones as their principal computing devices. In fact, most of us rely on our phones for "general computing" only using PCs for specialized tasks -- which was not really the case when the Sansar project started.

Until we all get inexpensive AR contact lenses, it's hard to beat phones as the mass market delivery vehicle for VR. Onboard RAM keeps doubling every few years, graphics power keeps improving... if I had to bet on VR, that's where I'd put my chips.

Sansar could be on Daydream in a month, I suspect. Second Life would take longer--especially since it would take a while to get beyond superstitions and unrealistic expectations of how people actually use VR.

[animats]

10 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Your pants are on back-to-front.

That's what Sinespace gives you as the default avatar.

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

* As to your first point, needing the mass market for success via low hardware requirements,

Yes to all you said, but remember we were talking about 3D demos for commercial RL products here. The general market consumers aren't under any circumstance going to buy any etra hardware just to take a look at a 3D demo of whatever they think of buying.

[Chic Aeon]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Thanks. Huh, I'd have never expected that. So different from the app store model I'd assumed they were following to monetize third-party IP for the platform. (I wouldn't think the exchange rate matters except maybe to a very few who already held the game currency, and I'm not clear why this would be net negative for content creators many of whom presumably never cash out anyway, but I wonder how it benefits the Lab. Something something FinCEN something? It would seem to make hope of profit for the platform operator even more remote than before.)

Quite a few content creators have been cashing out for awhile now.  Not "put the kids through college" amounts I would guess but enough to matter. True, if you never cash out there is no downside but the folks that have been cashing out and even those joining later like me lost about 60 percent on the conversion (this is someone else's figures -- I got lost in the math). But the dollar USED to be 100 to 1 and now (because of STEAM) it is 250 to one. We got "back" the 15% charge. So folks can figure it out for themselves. 

 Not sure of the reasoning but there was much said at the Product meeting after the announcement. 

[chibiusa Ling]

7 hours ago, Klytyna said:

...

I was wrong Klytyna, you can't jump. For some reason i thought i had read somewhere that they had added that capability but apparently not.

I thought i would download it again and see if anything might have changed since i last used it. Well, you can throw a dice now instead of a ball. You can also press space and then click somewhere ahead of you to teleport there. Innovate stuff. Other than that its the same old slog. I tried modifying my outfit which resulted in me waiting nearly 7 minutes for the wardrobe avatar styling panel to load up. Limited amount of starter clothing where half of it doesn't even go together. A further 7 minutes nearly just to save the outfit. Still takes an aeon or two to load each experience. Most experiences are tiny and can be seen in seconds as there is literally NOTHING else to do bar go "Ohhhhhh......Ahhhhhh". Still no option to have your arrow keys turn the avatar instead of strafe, you have to use your right mouse button which is tiresome...especially when you can only turn so far as the mouse itself isnt locked to the program when you are doing this and thus hits the side of the desktop and you stop turning. Is this what LL thinks VR and normal users are wanting, to stand around being amazed by shiny material textures and 10 hour loading screens. I thought there would be more people at least, even if only a few as it was released on steam but nope....14 whole people right now. Its been a couple of years now since Sansar was released you would have thought there would at least be something more to do in that time than just go "Hmmm.....waiting.....waiting.....waiting.......Oh that looks pretty......what else is there.....waiting....waiting.....waiting.....". I am about to go and try out the experience designer again to see if thats improved.....you never know....

Edited December 16, 2018 by chibiusa Ling
Edit note : So far iv been waiting 12 minutes for one experience to load on a 100mb connection....

[KanryDrago]

8 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

I was wrong Klytyna, you can't jump. For some reason i thought i had read somewhere that they had added that capability but apparently not.

I thought i would download it again and see if anything might have changed since i last used it. Well, you can throw a dice now instead of a ball. You can also press space and then click somewhere ahead of you to teleport there. Innovate stuff. Other than that its the same old slog. I tried modifying my outfit which resulted in me waiting nearly 7 minutes for the wardrobe avatar styling panel to load up. Limited amount of starter clothing where half of it doesn't even go together. A further 7 minutes nearly just to save the outfit. Still takes an aeon or two to load each experience. Most experiences are tiny and can be seen in seconds as there is literally NOTHING else to do bar go "Ohhhhhh......Ahhhhhh". Still no option to have your arrow keys turn the avatar instead of strafe, you have to use your right mouse button which is tiresome...especially when you can only turn so far as the mouse itself isnt locked to the program when you are doing this and thus hits the side of the desktop and you stop turning. Is this what LL thinks VR and normal users are wanting, to stand around being amazed by shiny material textures and 10 hour loading screens. I thought there would be more people at least, even if only a few as it was released on steam but nope....14 whole people right now. Its been a couple of years now since Sansar was released you would have thought there would at least be something more to do in that time than just go "Hmmm.....waiting.....waiting.....waiting.......Oh that looks pretty......what else is there.....waiting....waiting.....waiting.....". I am about to go and try out the experience designer again to see if thats improved.....you never know....

dont be unfair its "beta" and they have only been developing it for 5 years or so, just come back in 20 years when its really ready

[Chic Aeon]

From the download page of the Sansar website: 

[KanryDrago]

3 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

From the download page of the Sansar website: 

My specs far exceed those, Sansar is not performant. Every other vr app I run is including dcs, assetto corsa, elite, skyrim and obduction to name a few of the more machine stressing apps. The main issue being the long load times (I have 300mbps down)  and the 2012 graphics quality.

[Chic Aeon]

Have you been to one of MY experiences. Load time is not dependent on the server but on the creator (just like in SL).  While things have improved in that manner greatly this last month or so (new tech) there are still experiences that take forever simply because they were not built "smartly".  Most folks 20 mbps to 50 mbps get into my experiences in about 12 seconds (some 7 seconds a few at 25 seconds). There does seem to be an issue for some non-US folks. 

It is a problem (just like in SL the heavy mesh and textures and gaming the system is a problem). Everyone pretty much agrees on that.  Same here. 

That screenshot wasn't for you btw. 

[chibiusa Ling]

6 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Have you been to one of MY experiences. Load time is not dependent on the server but on the creator (just like in SL).  While things have improved in that manner greatly this last month or so (new tech) there are still experiences that take forever simply because they were not built "smartly".  Most folks 20 mbps to 50 mbps get into my experiences in about 12 seconds (some 7 seconds a few at 25 seconds). There does seem to be an issue for some non-US folks. 

It is a problem (just like in SL the heavy mesh and textures and gaming the system is a problem). Everyone pretty much agrees on that.  Same here. 

That screenshot wasn't for you btw. 

I exceed those stats. By miles for the desktop requirements. Even if your experience loads quicker than most it still doesnt change the fact that Sansar is currently a pretty looking world of vanity projects. I was really hoping when they announced a new world all those years ago that we were getting something truly awesome with features that blew SL out of the water and here we are 5+ years later and we got?. Hopefully it will improve in the distant future but if this is all it does after five years then im not holding my breath.

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, chibiusa Ling said:

Most experiences are tiny and can be seen in seconds as there is literally NOTHING else to do bar go "Ohhhhhh......Ahhhhhh".

 

Just now, chibiusa Ling said:

Still no option to have your arrow keys turn the avatar instead of strafe

I still find that the most amazingly non-conventional (I am being kind) design choice ever. It's like the devs never heard of WASD. This will annoy the flatscreeners more then the obscene lag in moving one's VR hands.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

8 hours ago, Klytyna said:

And the reason LL's vision for Project Stupid has consistently FAILED to appeal to SL users is that LL STILL don't seem to understand who uses SL, what they use it for, or why, even after 15 bloody years.
 

Sansar is not for us,  why wont you get it in your head, sure LL would like some of us to come over and spend time there playing with their new world,  So once again SANSAR, not Stupid,  is for another market,  SL is our market.  LL knows this.  

[KanryDrago]

8 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Sansar is not for us,  why wont you get it in your head, sure LL would like some of us to come over and spend time there playing with their new world,  So once again SANSAR, not Stupid,  is for another market,  SL is our market.  LL knows this.  

So care to tell us who Sansar is for?

Educators are making their own custom apps

Large companies that want vr ads are making their own

Any gamer is going to see the guff that Sansar dishes up as worthless

Plenty of museums and other exhibit types are making their own apps

Social media? Nope those people like vr chat, rec room etc Sansar holds nothing for them either

So you keep telling us Sansar isnt for sl'ers I agree. Now try telling us who is the customer for it