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Daniel Voyager

Sansar is now officially on Steam

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There's not one all encompassing count of all persons logged into Sansar. The numbers are very fragmented depending on what those people are currently doing.

  • You have a number from Steam that shows the people that have logged in through Steam.
  • Then added to that number are all those who have logged in directly to Sansar. (I have a Steam account. I can't see any reason why I would want to use Steam to log in.)

Those who log in directly do not show up in the Atlas unless they are in a published experience. Those who are working in edit mode, doing work in the lookbook, or visiting an unpublished experience DO NOT show up in any numbers except to LL employees. And believe me there are lots of unpublished experiences. 

So no one outside of LL really knows the accurate concurrency numbers.

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45 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

There's not one all encompassing count of all persons logged into Sansar. The numbers are very fragmented depending on what those people are currently doing.

  • You have a number from Steam that shows the people that have logged in through Steam.
  • Then added to that number are all those who have logged in directly to Sansar. (I have a Steam account. I can't see any reason why I would want to use Steam to log in.)

Those who log in directly do not show up in the Atlas unless they are in a published experience. Those who are working in edit mode, doing work in the lookbook, or visiting an unpublished experience DO NOT show up in any numbers except to LL employees. And believe me there are lots of unpublished experiences. 

So no one outside of LL really knows the accurate concurrency numbers.

Kinda what I have said a few dozen times LOL.  Hopefully --- eventually --- it will be clear :D. 

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ALSO  people can be in a PUBLISHED experience that is NOT publicly accessible (I have many of those) and they will not show up in the stats either (except for the all encompassing Linden Lab ones which count EVERYONE EVERYWHERE (this from Ebbe). 

So basically there are a lot more folks in Sansar than there appears to be --- hence those high sales volumes of mostly free items. 

 

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:04 PM, animats said:

But Steamcharts would count them, because those are Steam's statistics. They know when you're running the Steam version of Sansar, but have no idea what you're doing with it. That data is from Valve, not from LL.

A common misconception is that there is a different version of Sansar. There is not. Steam detects you running the client from the Steam launcher. But it merely launches the same exact version of the client if you don't run it from the launcher. Steam seems to only collect that data in their charts. Their data is however all over the place compared to the LL supplied head count data. Sometimes lower sometimes higher. It is a different view of data. So what you have to ask your self is what do I wish to learn from the data? And the general answer that would seem to me to be the most important would be something like: If I went to Sansar how many people would I expect to see at a given point in time or at a given place? For that answer you would most closely find the correct answer in the head count supplied by LL because it counts the number of active people on public places. In other words it excludes anyone in a non-public place. People you would not expect to see if you went there. With the Steam charts you might see the people on public regions plus the people on private regions plus the people sitting at the login screen minus the people that logged in without using Steam. So you can quickly see there why the steam charts are not very relevant for any analysis. That said the data isn't hugely off from the head count from LL overall. That data only points to concurrency. The data we don't have easy access to is sales. For that someone would have to poll data from a large enough sample of users and aggregate it into something meaningful.  You can now see here as the averaging starts to get under way for January that the Steam impact is almost non-existent. But do keep in mind this is a real time running average and it could change he further we move into January. And there may be a lag time from someone's introduction to a platform to their showing up and hanging around too.  61e64100b8894b088f55c99afffc8314.png
https://gyazo.com/61e64100b8894b088f55c99afffc8314

 

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Just wanted to say that even though we have been repeating the same info over and over (yawn) :D, looking at the "concurrency" versus "sales" was a very good exercise for me. It pointed out TO ME clearly how many folks are out there and not obviously using Sansar. This is much the same as in Opensim when the statistics we see most often come from REPORTING GRIDS, and don't count the huge number of people using Opensim software (and buying on Kitely Market) for their personal or educational uses. 

People seem to think that concurrency is some sort of holy grail, when it is actually only ONE part of the picture.

In Second Life those folks using sims for their private use and closing them off completely from public access are STILL counted in the concurrency.  They are much like the folks in Opensim and Sansar who are using the software or platform but are not part of a grid and most often NOT counted. The last report I heard from Hypergrid Business suggested that if ALL the people using Opensim software were counted they would be larger than SL.   I have no idea if that is correct or not, just that there is a LOT that we can't see and don't know and we can only guess from bits and pieces of info we garner sometimes haphazardly (not yours Gindipple) and by accident :D.

 

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Steam concurrency numbers come from a neutral party. LL has a tendency to release only numbers that make them look good. They boast about the number of signups Second Life gets, although only a small fraction of the 10,000 signups a day ever show up in world. Many. if not most, probably come from bots making accounts on the web site. LL used to release more statistics about the SL economy, until that started trending down. So LL's own figures have to be viewed with some skepticism. Steam concurrency numbers are available for a huge range of games and services, and the industry accepts them as real.

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1 hour ago, animats said:

Steam concurrency numbers come from a neutral party. LL has a tendency to release only numbers that make them look good. They boast about the number of signups Second Life gets, although only a small fraction of the 10,000 signups a day ever show up in world. Many. if not most, probably come from bots making accounts on the web site. LL used to release more statistics about the SL economy, until that started trending down. So LL's own figures have to be viewed with some skepticism. Steam concurrency numbers are available for a huge range of games and services, and the industry accepts them as real.

Steams numbers would mean something if ... IF everyone had to go through Steam to enter Sansar. They don't, therefore, the info from Steam is very wanting. There are no really good numbers available, period. We don't know how many people are actually logging into Sansar at any given time. I doubt that there's a large number of people logged and not visible, but no one really knows except the Lab and they aren't sharing.

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54 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

 I doubt that there's a large number of people logged and not visible, but no one really knows except the Lab and they aren't sharing.

You KNOW -- that was my assumption also until I put out all my clothes for free and saw folks come out of the woodwork -- names I had never seen before - oh so many names. So I think it is possible that there are more than "I" at least believed.  But yes, I agree we really don't know.

I DO know how many hours I logged in Sansar (a quick estimate looks like well over 700 as I wasn't logged in when I was working in MD except for uploading)  and maybe 30 were counted (Lookbook time doesn't show up except internally). So when you look at the folks that build that we KNOW about, that is a lot of hours that might not end up in the public charts. And yes, I was also in SL answering questions as the need arose :D.  I'mma multitasking gal.

The bottom line is that there are a few new folks coming in from STEAM (we know that from Discord and Twitch also) but not HOARDS.  There have also been some leaving. So it will be difficult to tell the end result for a bit.    

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3 hours ago, animats said:

Steam concurrency numbers come from a neutral party. LL has a tendency to release only numbers that make them look good. They boast about the number of signups Second Life gets, although only a small fraction of the 10,000 signups a day ever show up in world. Many. if not most, probably come from bots making accounts on the web site. LL used to release more statistics about the SL economy, until that started trending down. So LL's own figures have to be viewed with some skepticism. Steam concurrency numbers are available for a huge range of games and services, and the industry accepts them as real.

Normally I'd agree with you on this not trusting the source, but I physically went and compared reported numbers to actual live people on an experience often to make certain that that was not the case. There are a few afk bot like people occasionally, but not enough to consider more than simply someone who logged in and left themselves there and went out for dinner. I'm not saying steam numbers aren't great for some games. But they also aren't perfect by any stretch. Bottom line is know the data you're looking at and make sure you know what that data actually represents instead of making an error and assuming it tells you something that really isn't there. And trust me LL data isn't perfect either, missing from the graphs is the first few months the data was available. It was horribly broke so I don't even consider it worth showing. And there was some code glitches where 50,000 people showed up in one experience. I had to manually go in and correct issues like this to keep the data clean. It is by far the closet representation of active users on public regions there is and there are other people that monitor the same data and theirs compares similar to mine. And I've said before, there could be 1,000 people hiding on private experiences. But I consider this highly unlikely as you would see some bleed over from that at certain events. We seen the most number of avatars on at any given time when they had a comedy even. It peaked at around 100 users. And if there is 1,000 people hermitting on private experiences you have to ask yourself, do they matter? Only if they are spending money. Something we can't so easily track, but we can look at a few users sales data and I did in the past. I seen no real indication that this was the hidden gem. VRChat exploded from a few 100 over night to 20,000 due to some strange circumstances. That could just as easily happen to Sansar, but let's not forget just how bad that was for VRChat too. LL seems to be after SLOW and steady. That's all fine and dandy and can work provided they have a very dedicated source of income. So keep spending them $L and they will get there 😉

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I still maintain they should have gone down the same road as Sinespace. Whilst still in development and missing some functionality Sinespace is SL 2.0 but on steroids. Using Unity as the base for in world development, whether coding (Lua), modelling, clothing, world design, etc is a dope idea. Especially as you can then import straight into the world itself. Some may disagree with me but I feel Sinespace achieving what LL should have achieved and isn't achieving with Sansar. I mean they launched in November 2016, thats a little over two years and they have pwnd Sansar in terms of features and quality. Sansar released to pubic beta six months after this and its greatest achievement is what...

I was in Sansar the other day and half of the experiences are poorly textured abandoned ass, the most popular hangout zone was some Christmas place with textured block buildings and the ultimate highlights were a good old game of chuck the donut and running.

I appreciate there are some in here who are desperate to defend Sansar until their dying breath but lets face facts here. Its naff. LL need to sit up and look at what these other worlds are doing and how much they are achieving, the way in which they are achieving it and take a good long look at Sansar and give some very serious thought to making some very tough decisions on the current direction of "Project Bottomless Money Pit".

If Sinespace keep going the way they are going. They won't just end up beating Sansar they will pwn SL....having spent time in that world I can tell you quite honestly they are well well well on their way to doing that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chibiusa Ling said:

I still maintain they should have gone down the same road as Sinespace. Whilst still in development and missing some functionality Sinespace is SL 2.0 but on steroids. Using Unity as the base for in world development, whether coding (Lua), modelling, clothing, world design, etc is a dope idea. Especially as you can then import straight into the world itself. Some may disagree with me but I feel Sinespace achieving what LL should have achieved and isn't achieving with Sansar. I mean they launched in November 2016, thats a little over two years and they have pwnd Sansar in terms of features and quality. Sansar released to pubic beta six months after this and its greatest achievement is what...

I was in Sansar the other day and half of the experiences are poorly textured abandoned ass, the most popular hangout zone was some Christmas place with textured block buildings and the ultimate highlights were a good old game of chuck the donut and running.

I appreciate there are some in here who are desperate to defend Sansar until their dying breath but lets face facts here. Its naff. LL need to sit up and look at what these other worlds are doing and how much they are achieving, the way in which they are achieving it and take a good long look at Sansar and give some very serious thought to making some very tough decisions on the current direction of "Project Bottomless Money Pit".

If Sinespace keep going the way they are going. They won't just end up beating Sansar they will pwn SL....having spent time in that world I can tell you quite honestly they are well well well on their way to doing that.

Hello,

It is all true, despite this, I know very well my colleagues created stuffs for Sansar significantly superior to all I seen on Sinespace. I insist about significantly superior, on design, on technology, despite Sinespace uses Unity engine !. That proves one thing : Sansar is an awesome real time 3D engine.

But, oh, there is a but, we can't speak about it or the post or topic will be removed very quickly. Clever! So, nobody will know. And believe me, on Sansar you can have incredible stuffs, animated including avatars and a lot of more. In fact Sansar team is doing an excellent job, but forbids people like us to speak what we can do on Sansar. Clever!

Best Regards, Motoko Oanomochi.

 

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi

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12 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

But, oh, there is a but, we can't speak about it or the post or topic will be removed very quickly. Clever! So, nobody will know. And believe me, on Sansar you can have incredible stuffs, animated including avatars and a lot of more. In fact Sansar team is doing an excellent job, but forbids people like us to speak what we can do on Sansar. Clever!

What are you talking about? I talk about Sansar a lot and I've never been sanctioned. 

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

What are you talking about? I talk about Sansar a lot and I've never been sanctioned. 

We tried only to show what Sansar is able to do. I ensure you, all was removed on this forum.

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1 minute ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

We tried only to show what Sansar is able to do. I ensure you, all was removed on this forum.

Were you advertising products you sell in the store? 

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We tried to show some video, the magic side of 3D is when stuffs are animated. Of course, it is impossible to make completely anonymous the show.

Are designers here are hidden their names ? Do they can ? It seems, depend of your name or brand name, you can do indirect AD or not here. The fact is more a designer is trying to show innovation on Sansar and more the designer is "pushing out".

So we got it, and "hourra" for rippers :) they have all the little market for them self. At least, Sansar marketplace is filled by stuff coming for free 3d market place more or less legally. But that provides lot of free stuffs, lot of low cost stuffs. Nothing is truly designed for Sansar, but who cares ?

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

We tried only to show what Sansar is able to do. I ensure you, all was removed on this forum.

Iv seen a lot of what Sansar offers. Iv seen individuals like Medhue and others exhibiting different things you can do in Sansar as well as having explored it myself. I stand by my opinion, Sinespace is better. If they continue playing their cards right they will take the crown on this one. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Iv seen a lot of what Sansar offers. Iv seen individuals like Medhue and others exhibiting different things you can do in Sansar as well as having explored it myself. I stand by my opinion, Sinespace is better. If they continue playing their cards right they will take the crown on this one. 

I can say, we done a lot of work to create bridges between 3D CAD software and Sansar, and for sure Sansar is better. And as I can't show it here, nobody or almost nobody, will see it. Now, I agree with you, Sinespace are going in a better way. Better communication, better marketing and less snub.

An evidence ? we can speak freely about Sinespace and not about what we can do on Sansar :)

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi

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28 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

Nothing is truly designed for Sansar, but who cares ?

 

That is so VERY not true.  I have six open (public) experiences in Sansar. In FIVE of them, I made EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE EXPERIENCE; the other used some plants from a Sansar template.   That is a LOT of things DESIGNED FOR SANSAR and I am certainly not alone. 

 

You have said a lot of confusing things on this thread with no backup. I asked what your experiences were (either here or on Discord, I can't remember now) and never received an answer.  They don't just take down posts without a reason. Take a few screenshots without any signage and SHOW us what you are taking about. OR post them on DISCORD for folks to see. Many of the people in this thread are also on DISCORD. 

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16 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

I can say, we done a lot of work to create bridges between 3D CAD software and Sansar, and for sure Sansar is better. And as I can't show it here, nobody or almost nobody, will see it. Now, I agree with you, Sinespace are going in a better way. Better communication, better marketing and less snub.

An evidence ? we can speak freely about Sinespace and not about what we can do on Sansar :)

The reasons I think it's better are the ones iv mentioned and also that I feel they are creating the right kind of hybrid between SL and Sansar as well as doing their own thing. It's what LL should have done as it caters to the experience creator who wants to make a whole entire world within a world in the same way Sansar wants you to be able to but also maintains a lot of the community developmental feel and features that SL has. At the end of the day it's going to be a case of personal preference on which world you prefer BUT....if we look at it in terms of what the community actually wanted compared to what was delivered and what will attract users from both sides of the fence SL / Outside Developers and Users and what it offers in terms of features and ease of use and collaborative potential..Sinescape wins. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

That is so VERY not true.  I have six open (public) experiences in Sansar. In FIVE of them, I made EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE EXPERIENCE; the other used some plants from a Sansar template.   That is a LOT of things DESIGNED FOR SANSAR and I am certainly not alone. 

 

You have said a lot of confusing things on this thread with no backup. I asked what your experiences were (either here or on Discord, I can't remember now) and never received an answer.  They don't just take down posts without a reason. Take a few screenshots without any signage and SHOW us what you are taking about. OR post them on DISCORD for folks to see. Many of the people in this thread are also on DISCORD. 

We know you have a store, is it indirect AD ? Now the fact you can do it, is something some other can't, it is something you need to understand.

I am not here for this. And I will not mention again something else here, I done it, it was removed. I have no account on discord. I don't even know what it is, I use Skype mainly. I guess it is something like Skype.

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi

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6 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

The reasons I think it's better are the ones iv mentioned and also that I feel they are creating the right kind of hybrid between SL and Sansar as well as doing their own thing. It's what LL should have done as it caters to the experience creator who wants to make a whole entire world within a world in the same way Sansar wants you to be able to but also maintains a lot of the community developmental feel and features that SL has. At the end of the day it's going to be a case of personal preference on which world you prefer BUT....if we look at it in terms of what the community actually wanted compared to what was delivered and what will attract users from both sides of the fence SL / Outside Developers and Users and what it offers in terms of features and ease of use and collaborative potential..Sinescape wins. 

I need to say thank you a lot, because we will make a deep try and see how we can adapt what we done for Sansar, on Sinespace. For some stuffs I have no doubt as we adapted what we done on Sansar, with some constraints, on Second life. Considering the number of users, Sinespace deserves this try.

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I just saw the reply from Motoko Oanomochi.  I am STILL going to paste in what was ready to go public with the send button. You area all smart adults and can do your own research. I am VERY confused still what all this is about with Motoko.

*******************************************

OK, I just looked up Motoko Oanomochi as anyone can do and found out what the product is.

I have visited at least one experience by this creator. Most of you, if you are a H and G creator anyway, will recognize the brand. The experience I visited was a single product installation and it wasn't long after I joined Sansar. I cannot find the product in the store now, but there are LOTS of competing products.  I remember the experience well since this creator and I were actually neighbors in SL at one point. 

I still have NO idea what all the comments are about but obviously I miss a lot of drama -- both here and in Sansar; and that is fine with me. 

Making no comment on the experience that I visited but it did appear to be original :D.

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I want to put a little laughter back into this thread -- it can use some. 

There is REALLY no point in trying to ADVERTISE our Sansar products here even if we could -- simply because (almost?) no one is making much money over there.  I am making about a nickel per hour of time spent working in Sansar. So WHY on earth would I go to a lot of trouble to advertise?  To make a dime an hour? LOL

For MOST of us, it is about creation and honing skills and learning new things --- OMG I can actually RIG NOW!!!! And who would have thought that would EVER happen?  Not I.

Sansar is alive for the moment. We don't know what the future will bring. There aren't many people there.   THOSE are the things we know.   The rest is all about choice. We each get to make our own.

So let's lighten up a little!

 

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41 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I just saw the reply from Motoko Oanomochi.  I am STILL going to paste in what was ready to go public with the send button. You area all smart adults and can do your own research. I am VERY confused still what all this is about with Motoko.

*******************************************

OK, I just looked up Motoko Oanomochi as anyone can do and found out what the product is.

I have visited at least one experience by this creator. Most of you, if you are a H and G creator anyway, will recognize the brand. The experience I visited was a single product installation and it wasn't long after I joined Sansar. I cannot find the product in the store now, but there are LOTS of competing products.  I remember the experience well since this creator and I were actually neighbors in SL at one point. 

I still have NO idea what all the comments are about but obviously I miss a lot of drama -- both here and in Sansar; and that is fine with me. 

Making no comment on the experience that I visited but it did appear to be original :D.

You missed nothing, and visibly you will miss nothing, I just feel the need to thank again an user here to bring us an information very interesting about a new platform.

 

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And while we discuss about concurrent Sansar steam users (these days between 0! and 25), we dont even get an official answer, if there will be a mobile client for Sansar and SL anytime soon. Hard to get what LL is up to at all.

Edited by Resi Pfeffer
typo

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