Gacha category? or still just dump everywhere...

[Codex Alpha]

I would just say that when a sub category gets big enough, where the products are actually replicating what is on the marketplace;

Here is a fireplace, now here is a red fireplace, here is a stone fireplace, here is a iron fireplace, here is a TINY fireplace, here is TINY red fireplace, here is TINY stone fireplace, here is a TINY iron fireplace, here is a Gacha fireplace, here is a Gacha red fireplace, here is a Gacha stone fireplace, etc.

Then it needs it's own market at that point to serve that niche directly.

When one arrives as an <ahem> regular-scale fella shopping for a brand new TV, there is no need to be assaulted with Tiny items in the listing. Nor should I have to spend time to set a NOT on my search.

When the numbers of these minority product groups were low, it didnt really matter. But when and if any of these end up going 1:1, then it is time for a market split, and people would essentially go to each market, which in  turn would be more specific to that taste. Tiny Market here, Gacha (flea market) there.

If you were a Gacha or Tiny fan, you would probably be happy about this, as you can spend your searches 100% in the interest of your choice. You could always return to the regular marketplace at any time.

I see we can shop BY COMMUNITY, and that is great for those of those communities. At the least Gacha should be added to it, because not only is it replicating TENFOLD the product listings on the regular market, but they are adding IMAGE SPAM as well (I ranted about this a year or so ago).

Sorting by community does not help the rest of us who  have to wade through listings and products we never use because we are not Tiny or Furry or Gacha Fiends, so we have to see EVERYTHING.

Gacha is a scourge, and has been banned around the world, yet still exists on SL.

The least can be done is to dedicate it's own submarket

gachafiends/marketplace.secondlife.com

[Kyrah Abattoir]

I wonder how gachas fit in the coming ban on lootcrates in games.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:19 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings!

If a Gacha item is in an appropriate category, then we will not be taking any action against the Product Listing.

As an example, if a Gacha item is a Mask, and it is in the Masks category, please do not report the item as we will not be forcing the seller to move the item.

If, however, the item is in the main Avatar Accessories category (ie, NOT in the correct sub-category), then please report the listing and we will action the listing.

This applies to any other type of Gacha items as well. So clothing, jewelry, etc.  Those items must be in the correct sub-categories. So a t-shirt in say, the Mix and Match Ensemble category is already in the wrong category, and if it is flagged, it will be actioned. 

The change now though is instead of advising the seller that the item should be in the T-Shirt category, we are letting them know it should be in the new Gacha category. 

Please do not report items that are in an appropriate category. 

I don't know that your time is well spent on parsing all this, Dakota.

I have had the strangest things removed for "wrong category" and I can't figure out who has the time to report, say, a gatcha fence that was put in "building component" instead of...whatever it was you thought it should be in (still mystified as the flagged item is removed without explanation what's wrong with it).

At one level, everything single thing in SL, bar none, is "Decor". It is only a decoration. It doesn't do the "real" thing, but only the virtual thing. So that is a safe and easy gatcha category I should think, especially because you want, say, "food" put into "recreation" or "celebrations" which is strange, given that, well, nobody really eats food because they don't need food as avatars. They just pretend. You do have "fruits and vegetables" but you don't have something that reflects "a nice prepared home-cooked meal".

I just put a gatcha in "juice" even though you can't even pretend-drink it with anims because it's called "green apple juice" so I thought, oh well...

It would really make life easier to just check GATCHA for EVERYTHING. Selling gatchas is made SO ONEROUS by having to sit and try to figure out which sub-category a thing goes in, so that Lindens don't flag it, or enemies don't abuse-report it as a means of griefing. 

But having trained us so well to fuss with categories, I think we could soldier on, so as to give the buyer some sort of heads-up about the thing.

There's this thought -- I know it's radical -- but you could shift the onus of category-making to creators. That is, when they make -- not just upload to the MP -- a thing, they have to pre-decide a category as a function on the object-menu -- which would need, of course, a whole new coded thingy. Yes, I realize this is radical, life-changing, etc. But it's just a thought. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2019 at 7:31 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I wonder how gachas fit in the coming ban on lootcrates in games.

They're not loot-crates. They are decorations you can buy for your home by looking at pictures and the inside of the machine, even, so you see what you are getting. Yes, there is an element of chance in what you might get, commons or rare, but you see what they are and can try for them. 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/10/2019 at 12:50 AM, entity0x said:

I would just say that when a sub category gets big enough, where the products are actually replicating what is on the marketplace;

Here is a fireplace, now here is a red fireplace, here is a stone fireplace, here is a iron fireplace, here is a TINY fireplace, here is TINY red fireplace, here is TINY stone fireplace, here is a TINY iron fireplace, here is a Gacha fireplace, here is a Gacha red fireplace, here is a Gacha stone fireplace, etc.

Then it needs it's own market at that point to serve that niche directly.

When one arrives as an <ahem> regular-scale fella shopping for a brand new TV, there is no need to be assaulted with Tiny items in the listing. Nor should I have to spend time to set a NOT on my search.

When the numbers of these minority product groups were low, it didnt really matter. But when and if any of these end up going 1:1, then it is time for a market split, and people would essentially go to each market, which in  turn would be more specific to that taste. Tiny Market here, Gacha (flea market) there.

If you were a Gacha or Tiny fan, you would probably be happy about this, as you can spend your searches 100% in the interest of your choice. You could always return to the regular marketplace at any time.

I see we can shop BY COMMUNITY, and that is great for those of those communities. At the least Gacha should be added to it, because not only is it replicating TENFOLD the product listings on the regular market, but they are adding IMAGE SPAM as well (I ranted about this a year or so ago).

Sorting by community does not help the rest of us who  have to wade through listings and products we never use because we are not Tiny or Furry or Gacha Fiends, so we have to see EVERYTHING.

Gacha is a scourge, and has been banned around the world, yet still exists on SL.

The least can be done is to dedicate it's own submarket

gachafiends/marketplace.secondlife.com

I don't agree with banning gatchas or separating them, but I think the bit about the RP categories is spot on.

Why isn't there a category called even just "RP" as a thing? Not community, but thing.

Or say, "elf" or "fairy". So the elven stuff gets marked off with that sticker. I don't get why this isn't on the MP now as it's a huge feature of the market.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/7/2018 at 12:14 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Hi!

So you want to eliminate seeing any and all items that do not have Unlimited Quantities available, regardless of the permissions?

All No Copy items, including Gacha items are Limited Quantity items.  That is what Limited Quantity really means. 

Some template creators/sellers may set a restriction on how many items can be purchased by putting in the number available, which makes them Limited Quantity, even if they are Copy Enabled. items and even when the seller really does have an Unlimited Quantity available, they just choose to allow a restricted number of sales of the item through the Marketplace.

So with asking for a Limited Quantity filter that would already do what you want it to do (hide Gacha items), that can be done by checking the Copy option after a search is done, you are willing to punish sellers by hiding their Full Perm, but restricted sales, items?

 

Yes, this is really the brilliant solution to all those complaining about too many gatchas on the MP. Don't want to see them? Eliminate "copy". To be sure, this will also eliminate beautiful works of art that are in single copies for obvious reasons; specials that some makers have sometimes where they only have X quantity of a thing so as to increase its value, etc. but those are exceptions.

I'm puzzled, BTW, at gatchas somehow cluttering the view. If you put in enough search terms and also specific price, you also get rid of their view LOL.

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 1/19/2019 at 6:07 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

They're not loot-crates. They are decorations you can buy for your home by looking at pictures and the inside of the machine, even, so you see what you are getting. Yes, there is an element of chance in what you might get, commons or rare, but you see what they are and can try for them. 

You just confirmed that they are exactly the same as Overwatch lootcrates, which is precisely what the ban is targeting.

[Griss Alexandre]

I vote for a "Gacha" tick box on the listing page and search page, if anyone in charge is interested. 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

14 hours ago, Griss Alexandre said:

I vote for a "Gacha" tick box on the listing page and search page, if anyone in charge is interested. 

We already have a gacha section, yet they aparently don't have to go there.

[Prokofy Neva]

19 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

You just confirmed that they are exactly the same as Overwatch lootcrates, which is precisely what the ban is targeting.

No, the Overwatch loot boxes are indeed not like gatchas. Overwatch is sold directly for US dollars online. Gatchas occur inworld after a customer has purchased a limited license to access content in that world only -- known as "Linden dollars" which are not any form of currency, but more like Green Stamps. The Lindens, unlike people on the forums, have a real business with real lawyers and have worked out all this for years so the panic-mongering over this is misplaced.

And truly, I don't know what you're going on about. If I play a gatcha machine in SL that is 50/pull 10 times, I've spent... 13 cents. Meanwhile, the cheapest Overwatch crate is $1.99. A gumball machine that distributes random prizes -- which is what a gatcha is -- is not illegal in the United States. It's not something that falls under real-life or online gambling laws. It's not money, it's prizes, items. That's why no court in the US has pressured Blizzard and why Blizzard isn't banning this.

If you can take those prizes and re-sell them later, that doesn't matter, because a law will not over-reach into the next sale. The "next sale" doctrine is one often argued about with things like CDs, but it is not at all likely. The amounts of money that are equivalent to a gatcha with $50 a pull in Second Life indeed are really the equivalent of pennies or dimes put in a gumball machine.

It's only Belgian courts that have ruled on the Overwatch lootcrates and Blizzard has only disabled them in Belgian. Netherlands is pushing for this to be EU-wide, but it didn't happen yet. Second Life is maintained by a US-based company, although I believe it still has a London office. So it will not comply with a EU law on US territory. As with the VAAT issue, it will be slow in implementing any Europe-imposed law. When it does, they will do something token, like disable access to the "gatchas" category on the MP for those with European log-in addresses and not attempt to police it inworld. How could they? And again -- a lootbox purchased outright for US dollas of $1.99 is not like a gatcha accessed with the Linden dollars purchased by US dollars first, for use inworld.

I realize that you must loath gatches for some reason and this has become a "thing" for you. Maybe you're in Europe or Belgium specifically and worried about this. But once again, they are not the same thing as I've just spelled out.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Griss Alexandre]

3 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

We already have a gacha section, yet they aparently don't have to go there.

I know. But since an item can be both a Gacha and also be an item that fits another category, a tick box would work better IMO. That way if a person is searching in a specific category besides gacha, they will still see the item. 

Some people just want a whatchamacallit and don't care whether it's a Gacha or not. (I am usually one of those people.) 

AND, if I don't want to see gachas, I will use the permissions checkbox to exclude them. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Griss Alexandre
Added last paragraph.

[Cindy Evanier]

23 minutes ago, Griss Alexandre said:

since an item can be both a Gacha and also be an item that fits another category

Then wouldn't it be better for those wanting gacha's to request LL add categories within the gacha category then there's no confusion and everything is in its rightful place

[Dakota Linden]

On 1/19/2019 at 12:05 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't know that your time is well spent on parsing all this, Dakota.

I have had the strangest things removed for "wrong category" and I can't figure out who has the time to report, say, a gatcha fence that was put in "building component" instead of...whatever it was you thought it should be in (still mystified as the flagged item is removed without explanation what's wrong with it).

At one level, everything single thing in SL, bar none, is "Decor". It is only a decoration. It doesn't do the "real" thing, but only the virtual thing. So that is a safe and easy gatcha category I should think, especially because you want, say, "food" put into "recreation" or "celebrations" which is strange, given that, well, nobody really eats food because they don't need food as avatars. They just pretend. You do have "fruits and vegetables" but you don't have something that reflects "a nice prepared home-cooked meal".

I just put a gatcha in "juice" even though you can't even pretend-drink it with anims because it's called "green apple juice" so I thought, oh well...

It would really make life easier to just check GATCHA for EVERYTHING. Selling gatchas is made SO ONEROUS by having to sit and try to figure out which sub-category a thing goes in, so that Lindens don't flag it, or enemies don't abuse-report it as a means of griefing. 

But having trained us so well to fuss with categories, I think we could soldier on, so as to give the buyer some sort of heads-up about the thing.

There's this thought -- I know it's radical -- but you could shift the onus of category-making to creators. That is, when they make -- not just upload to the MP -- a thing, they have to pre-decide a category as a function on the object-menu -- which would need, of course, a whole new coded thingy. Yes, I realize this is radical, life-changing, etc. But it's just a thought. 

Hi Prokofy!

First and foremost, no item should ever be placed into a top level category, unless there isn't a sub-category for the item. 

If a Fence is in the Building and Object components category, but is not in the Fence sub-category, then it is in a wrong category and is subject to being unlisted if reported.

If the item is a Gatcha item, the moderator will recommend to the seller that the item be moved to the Gatcha category, however, the seller could instead choose to move the listing to the Fence sub-category instead. 

The Rec & Entertainment - Food sub-categories does have one for meals. It is called "Full Meals"

Re-writing the SL viewer code from the ground up to add a "thing" designation when an item is created isn't radical, it is grid destroying, IMHO. 

It would not only require an entire re-write of the code base, it would require blocking access to the grid for all viewers, including 3rd party ones, that do not have the code, otherwise the system wouldn't work.

This would mean everyone who does not have a newer system that can run the newest viewers would be eliminated from Second Life, including creators and others who use Second Life as a large source of income. 

It would also cause problems for all of the items that do not have a "thing" designation, either by forcing creators, including those who are no longer with SL for whatever reason, to update the item to include the "thing" or it would cause problems with the "thing" being missing by dumping all of the items without the  "thing" designation to a default.

 

 

[Dakota Linden]

18 hours ago, Griss Alexandre said:

I vote for a "Gacha" tick box on the listing page and search page, if anyone in charge is interested. 

Greetings!

If you would like to see a new feature on the Marketplace, please file a Jira Request.

https://jira.secondlife.com

 

[Prokofy Neva]

13 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

Hi Prokofy!

First and foremost, no item should ever be placed into a top level category, unless there isn't a sub-category for the item. 

If a Fence is in the Building and Object components category, but is not in the Fence sub-category, then it is in a wrong category and is subject to being unlisted if reported.

If the item is a Gatcha item, the moderator will recommend to the seller that the item be moved to the Gatcha category, however, the seller could instead choose to move the listing to the Fence sub-category instead. 

The Rec & Entertainment - Food sub-categories does have one for meals. It is called "Full Meals"

Re-writing the SL viewer code from the ground up to add a "thing" designation when an item is created isn't radical, it is grid destroying, IMHO. 

It would not only require an entire re-write of the code base, it would require blocking access to the grid for all viewers, including 3rd party ones, that do not have the code, otherwise the system wouldn't work.

This would mean everyone who does not have a newer system that can run the newest viewers would be eliminated from Second Life, including creators and others who use Second Life as a large source of income. 

It would also cause problems for all of the items that do not have a "thing" designation, either by forcing creators, including those who are no longer with SL for whatever reason, to update the item to include the "thing" or it would cause problems with the "thing" being missing by dumping all of the items without the  "thing" designation to a default.

 

 

Thanks for providing the information about the "Full Meals" -- the problem is that this won't fit "coffee and donuts" or "soup and sandwich" as they aren't full, then I risk another demotion on your MP if I use that.

Thanks for providing the detailed information about what a devastation it would be to add to the object menu a "category of a thing," thereby forcing creators to choose a category when they create things. Nobody wants to create insane work for Lindens or for that matter, shift the burden we sellers now have on to creators, much less banish all legacy objects from the grid because of an update. I posited a theory, I asked whether it is feasible, it isn't, so that subject is closed now -- though someday it may be as easy as dialing a phone -- oops, I mean tapping a phone number on a screen. 

So now that we've cleared that up, we need to bore down more fully on what we're stuck with then, which is the forced march to put an item in one of your categories before we can sell it -- a chore -- and then the all-to-easy removal of an item if it is in a "wrong" category -- a nuisance that might ultimately block some of us from the MP entirely.

I can't endorse your rule, "no item should ever be placed into a top level category, unless there isn't a sub-category for the item." Imagine if the rest of the Internet world worked that way. If you couldn't put a site in a Yelp category or anything of that notion unless you bore down to a sub-category -- or risk removal. There aren't such conventions on other services. Even when there are, punishment doesn't ensure for the wrong pull-down.

It's unnecessarily punitive. "Recreation and Entertainment" is already odd as a food top category because food is not always about recreation or entertainment. The fact that it is not true sustenance shouldn't distract from that reality of virtuality. Food could be put on a table in an office to make it look real -- coffee and donuts. People put tables with soup bowls on them in their homes to make them look realistic -- it's not about entertainment, except in the higher take of all things in SL being about entertainment at some level. As I've explained, "Full Meal" can't work for all food. Maybe it's not "fruit" or "vegetables". So if I left it only in "recreation and entertainment" -- PS like millions of items already on the MP -- because "snack" or "sandwich" doesn't exist as a sub-category -- because this is your top category for food items -- it should be sufficient and not punishable.

If someone has labored to put a fence gatcha into "building components" and no further, it shouldn't be a crime. They shouldn't be tasked to do the further sub-division into "fences" or punished for failing to do so because it is *not justified*. It's the sort of finicky time-waster that destroys your credibility managing the Marketplace.

You have to follow actual use when policing software. Most searches for gatchas are by their full title as the creator named them, often with funny symbols or mispelled words in them (which is why this behavior is common). People are looking for a specific gatcha item to complete a set -- that is the most common case.

True, somebody might wake up in the morning and think, "I need a fence. I think I'll search for a gatcha fence because they'll be cheap and see all fences that turn up from gatchas". In this more generic case, that person will not find a gatcha fence that was NOT put in the sub-division of "fence" because even if the item has a chance of being found because "fence" is in its name or description. That's because too many non-gatcha copyable fences will show up first. So he will have to add the term "gatcha" to his fence search.

The hypothetical that could justify your sub-division is that someone wants a fence, gatcha or not, and now they have been thwarted because theoretically gatcha fences not put in the fence category will not show up on a "fence" search. That's a very tiny subset of people, because most people searching for fences will want a store-bought, not gatcha fence that is copyable so they can put it all around their property. The gatch fence searcher wants a cheap solution -- maybe to buy one or four individual gatcha fences for a small garden.

A search on the word "fence" will not turn up any gatcha fences in the first ten pages, anyway. But once the user types "gatcha fence" because he wants a cheap one and is willing to take a single-copy object, there are zillions of them. Note very few have been put in the category "Building and Object Components » Structural Components » Fences and Railings" And don't you dare punish them now because I've called them to your attention. They have "landscaping" or "used" or all kinds of things WHiCH SHOULD BE LEGITIMATE. They should NOT be punished. Indeed, your goal of punishing people without refined categories is TOO BIG A JOB. (That it happens to me frequently might be explained because Lindens deliberately look for it on my store.)

But let's remember what your mission is here, Dakota. Your mission is to help make money for Linden Lab via the Marketplace. Linden Lab gets a cut of every item sold on the Marketplace, and God bless them for that, it's their long-term plan for profitability (not one I think is valid, since I think the land/sim model is a better one, but leave that aside now -- it's theirs).

That means everything you do all day has to MAXIMIZE PROFITS for Linden Lab. You do not do that when you MAKE IT HARD for people to enter your market and sell things -- from which you take your cut! I personally let hundreds of items languish even already in the marketplace device in the viewer, let alone in inventory, because I don't have the time or will to sit and fuss with categories and hope I've pulled down the right one and not be punishied. It's time-consuming and stupid.

There is no goal served by forcing refinement of categories. I can see if somebody has put an ordinary chair that does nothing into "adult furniture" as a sex bed to sell it as more racy than it is, you have to act. I can see if someone puts a chair into "weapons" to make it appeal to some category of buyers, you could act. But a fence put in "building components" that didn't drop down further to "fence"? No. It's a nice practice to encourage -- maybe the user will sell more that way. But it's not something to punish -- and therefore discourage sales tax for yourself. That is how you must understand it.

The worst thing about all this is that I hear you telling me that "Gatchas" as a category for ANY Gatcha -- which I thought was going to be a work-saver and time-saver now, isn't going to be accepted if there is another *sub*-category to put the item in -- and there almost always is. I cry, when I don't laugh in SL, most days.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Orwar]

   Lootboxes: 'Here's a chart of the things you might get, look at these shiny LEGENDARY items you can win! You know you want to spend money on me. Oh also you'll probably receive 50 of this COMMON before even getting a RARE item. It's -only- $0.99 per roll, though!'

   Gachas: 'Here's a chart of the things you might get, look at these shiny ULTRA-RARE items you can win! You know you want to spend money on me. Oh also, you'll probably receive 50 of this COMMON before even getting a RARE item. It's -only- L$100 per roll, though!'

   L$ can be bought and sold for USD$. How are they any different?

[Dakota Linden]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Thanks for providing the information about the "Full Meals" -- the problem is that this won't fit "coffee and donuts" or "soup and sandwich" as they aren't full, then I risk another demotion on your MP if I use that.

Thanks for providing the detailed information about what a devastation it would be to add to the object menu a "category of a thing," thereby forcing creators to choose a category when they create things. Nobody wants to create insane work for Lindens or for that matter, shift the burden we sellers now have on to creators, much less banish all legacy objects from the grid because of an update. I posited a theory, I asked whether it is feasible, it isn't, so that subject is closed now -- though someday it may be as easy as dialing a phone -- oops, I mean tapping a phone number on a screen. 

So now that we've cleared that up, we need to bore down more fully on what we're stuck with then, which is the forced march to put an item in one of your categories before we can sell it -- a chore -- and then the all-to-easy removal of an item if it is in a "wrong" category -- a nuisance that might ultimately block some of us from the MP entirely.

I can't endorse your rule, "no item should ever be placed into a top level category, unless there isn't a sub-category for the item." Imagine if the rest of the Internet world worked that way. If you couldn't put a site in a Yelp category or anything of that notion unless you bore down to a sub-category -- or risk removal. There aren't such conventions on other services. Even when there are, punishment doesn't ensure for the wrong pull-down.

It's unnecessarily punitive. "Recreation and Entertainment" is already odd as a food top category because food is not always about recreation or entertainment. The fact that it is not true sustenance shouldn't distract from that reality of virtuality. Food could be put on a table in an office to make it look real -- coffee and donuts. People put tables with soup bowls on them in their homes to make them look realistic -- it's not about entertainment, except in the higher take of all things in SL being about entertainment at some level. As I've explained, "Full Meal" can't work for all food. Maybe it's not "fruit" or "vegetables". So if I left it only in "recreation and entertainment" -- PS like millions of items already on the MP -- because "snack" or "sandwich" doesn't exist as a sub-category -- because this is your top category for food items -- it should be sufficient and not punishable.

If someone has labored to put a fence gatcha into "building components" and no further, it shouldn't be a crime. They shouldn't be tasked to do the further sub-division into "fences" or punished for failing to do so because it is *not justified*. It's the sort of finicky time-waster that destroys your credibility managing the Marketplace.

You have to follow actual use when policing software. Most searches for gatchas are by their full title as the creator named them, often with funny symbols or mispelled words in them (which is why this behavior is common). People are looking for a specific gatcha item to complete a set -- that is the most common case.

True, somebody might wake up in the morning and think, "I need a fence. I think I'll search for a gatcha fence because they'll be cheap and see all fences that turn up from gatchas". In this more generic case, that person will not find a gatcha fence that was NOT put in the sub-division of "fence" because even if the item has a chance of being found because "fence" is in its name or description. That's because too many non-gatcha copyable fences will show up first. So he will have to add the term "gatcha" to his fence search.

The hypothetical that could justify your sub-division is that someone wants a fence, gatcha or not, and now they have been thwarted because theoretically gatcha fences not put in the fence category will not show up on a "fence" search. That's a very tiny subset of people, because most people searching for fences will want a store-bought, not gatcha fence that is copyable so they can put it all around their property. The gatch fence searcher wants a cheap solution -- maybe to buy one or four individual gatcha fences for a small garden.

A search on the word "fence" will not turn up any gatcha fences in the first ten pages, anyway. But once the user types "gatcha fence" because he wants a cheap one and is willing to take a single-copy object, there are zillions of them. Note very few have been put in the category "Building and Object Components » Structural Components » Fences and Railings" And don't you dare punish them now because I've called them to your attention. They have "landscaping" or "used" or all kinds of things WHiCH SHOULD BE LEGITIMATE. They should NOT be punished. Indeed, your goal of punishing people without refined categories is TOO BIG A JOB. (That it happens to me frequently might be explained because Lindens deliberately look for it on my store.)

But let's remember what your mission is here, Dakota. Your mission is to help make money for Linden Lab via the Marketplace. Linden Lab gets a cut of every item sold on the Marketplace, and God bless them for that, it's their long-term plan for profitability (not one I think is valid, since I think the land/sim model is a better one, but leave that aside now -- it's theirs).

That means everything you do all day has to MAXIMIZE PROFITS for Linden Lab. You do not do that when you MAKE IT HARD for people to enter your market and sell things -- from which you take your cut! I personally let hundreds of items languish even already in the marketplace device in the viewer, let alone in inventory, because I don't have the time or will to sit and fuss with categories and hope I've pulled down the right one and not be punishied. It's time-consuming and stupid.

There is no goal served by forcing refinement of categories. I can see if somebody has put an ordinary chair that does nothing into "adult furniture" as a sex bed to sell it as more racy than it is, you have to act. I can see if someone puts a chair into "weapons" to make it appeal to some category of buyers, you could act. But a fence put in "building components" that didn't drop down further to "fence"? No. It's a nice practice to encourage -- maybe the user will sell more that way. But it's not something to punish -- and therefore discourage sales tax for yourself. That is how you must understand it.

The worst thing about all this is that I hear you telling me that "Gatchas" as a category for ANY Gatcha -- which I thought was going to be a work-saver and time-saver now, isn't going to be accepted if there is another *sub*-category to put the item in -- and there almost always is. I cry, when I don't laugh in SL, most days.

 

Hi Prokofy,

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines specifically state that items should not be placed into top level / root categories. 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

If you believe that the legal policies for Second Life should be changed, I would recommend that you submit your request in writing to the Linden Lab corporate office, attention Legal Department. 

With regards to the Food and Drinks category, I strongly recommend that you review the link I provided previously for the full list of Marketplace Categories. 

"Coffee and donuts" would perfectly fit into the 'Breakfasts & Cereals" sub-category.

"Snack" does in fact exist as a sub-category. It is called 'Cookies & Snacks'

For clarification, items placed into a top level category actually get LESS exposure, and sell less, and therefore reduce income for sellers.  

Items in a category are shown in higher level categories.  

If a seller puts their Fence item into the top level Building & Object Components category that is the ONLY category where anyone will see it.  If the Fence listing is put into the correct Fences category that listing will be shown anytime someone looks at the Building and Objects Components Category, AND the Structural Components Category AND the Fences category. 

By putting the item into the correct sub-category, the seller increases the chance of a buyer seeing their item, thus increasing the chance that their item will be purchased.

If a buyer is looking for a fence, and they go to the Fences category, they will NEVER see a fence that is put into the main Building and Objects Components top level category. 

Your example of searching for a Fence is resolved easily with the existing tools that already on the Marketplace, by refining the search results.  When a search is done, the default is relevance.  If the user wants to see cheap fences, they can change Relevance to show instead by Price: Low to High, or they could use the Price options on the Left side of the web page to specific the price range they would like to see. 

 

[Samara Sharkfin]

On 1/23/2019 at 4:24 PM, Cindy Evanier said:

Then wouldn't it be better for those wanting gacha's to request LL add categories within the gacha category then there's no confusion and everything is in its rightful place

Was done just after the gacha category was opened:  🙂

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-225767  (sorry, my first one. did not know that small edits stay visible)

Although i did that just to 'fix' the new situation.
Now that it is still possible to also use the non-gacha categories,  I will put 'floods' of new gachas in \gacha and other elsewhere.

I would rather prefer to not have that gacha category but a switch in the page view were you can choose non-gacha/gacha/both. Problem would then be to ask all sellers to set their product switches correctly.

I am sure the lab is considering the gacha situation further seen as often it is handled in this forum.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

Hi Prokofy,

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines specifically state that items should not be placed into top level / root categories. 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

If you believe that the legal policies for Second Life should be changed, I would recommend that you submit your request in writing to the Linden Lab corporate office, attention Legal Department. 

With regards to the Food and Drinks category, I strongly recommend that you review the link I provided previously for the full list of Marketplace Categories. 

"Coffee and donuts" would perfectly fit into the 'Breakfasts & Cereals" sub-category.

"Snack" does in fact exist as a sub-category. It is called 'Cookies & Snacks'

For clarification, items placed into a top level category actually get LESS exposure, and sell less, and therefore reduce income for sellers.  

Items in a category are shown in higher level categories.  

If a seller puts their Fence item into the top level Building & Object Components category that is the ONLY category where anyone will see it.  If the Fence listing is put into the correct Fences category that listing will be shown anytime someone looks at the Building and Objects Components Category, AND the Structural Components Category AND the Fences category. 

By putting the item into the correct sub-category, the seller increases the chance of a buyer seeing their item, thus increasing the chance that their item will be purchased.

If a buyer is looking for a fence, and they go to the Fences category, they will NEVER see a fence that is put into the main Building and Objects Components top level category. 

Your example of searching for a Fence is resolved easily with the existing tools that already on the Marketplace, by refining the search results.  When a search is done, the default is relevance.  If the user wants to see cheap fences, they can change Relevance to show instead by Price: Low to High, or they could use the Price options on the Left side of the web page to specific the price range they would like to see. 

 

Dakota,

Thanks for your detailed response. I review the link for "Marketplace Categories" daily, even multiple times a day, when I...try to fathom which category a thing should go in. That's why we're having this conversation.

And of course, you're right that "snacks" and "sandwiches" exist as categories and I've uploaded items to them and sold them from there so I realize that, so my example wasn't a correct one -- which doesn't remove the problem. I'll try again to explain.

Every time I have a food gatcha to upload -- and lots of gatchas are food -- I struggle. Why? Because the food categories are not easy or clear. They may seem comprehensive -- but when you have something that doesn't seem to quite fit any of them, you want to put them in just "food" without any punishment.  "Soups" and "lunch" are definitely not there, even though "breakfasts" or "sandwiches" might be. Is a white sauce a condiment, which is a category? Sauce is not. Raw "fruits" and "vegetables" are categories but "vegetarian" isn't nor "casserole," so where could you put a vegetarian casserole? A spinach pie. "Full meal" isn't quite right. "Snacks" implies junk food, not hors oeuvre which are fancier, like canapes. Every day in every way, ordinary people not on the forums struggle with this. So the task is how to make it less annoying and discouraging for them.

I am trying to get this across to you from actual daily, multiple uploads. I suggest you yourself get a budget from LL, spend a week shopping at all the events and playing multiple gatcha items, obtain no less than 100 gatcha items, and then upload them yourself to the MP. I think this would be a very good lesson to you what it is like to actually do this, rather than to think about it in the abstract and invoke laws on the heads of people attempting to do it in good faith. I realize that you feel you are "done" when you have cited law -- and your fanboyz gleefully hitting "hearts" in the corner feel they have "won". But really, the only way you will have won is when you really do this yourself and gain some insights. So go and do it, you will learn a lot. It's not easy.

I realize it's easier to invoke guidelines as draconian law rather than realize that with community feedback you yourselves could change those guidelines without forcing individual residents into letter campaigns, without any lawyer or board member caring a whit. It's eminently possible. It's done all the time.

"Breakfast" in fact is not where "coffee and donuts" go when you are putting them out for a meeting or all day as a side bar for an office build, for example. They're not "breakfast" then but just "food".  It's nice to know you could put them in that "breakfast" category without punishment as if you were in a 24-hour diner. But I'd rather be able to just put them under "food" without punishment because they aren't breakfast as such.

You wouldn't "just know" to look for a category called "Cookies & Snacks" because you would think of snacks as separate, and cookies going under "desserts". Or even being in a category of its own. Obviously I type in "snacks" and find it -- but where does "brownie" go? "Dessert" or "Cookies and Snacks?"

That's another bewildering thing about MP categories -- why aren't there lots more of them? The system wouldn't lose anything or be more burdened by having them. PS one of the most vexing and puzzling aspects of the *categories* for an object sold as distinct from the "communities" which are a different thing is that the words "RP" or "elf" or "wiccan" or "druid" or "fairy" do not appear as categories despite zillions of items in those categories in fact. It's just absolutely mind-boggling. Why? You are forced to put a witch's crystal ball in "decor". Or a fairy tree in "landscaping" although if there were "wiccan" or "fairy" as a category they would much more appropriately go in them. But there aren't.

There simply aren't enough ordinary categories for ordinary words. Just now I tried to find "soap" or "perfume" to upload some gatchas -- an actual bar of soap and an actual perfume bottle. They don't exist in any categories as such. Where shall I put this bar of gentleman's soap or this exotic perfume? Hmmm...bathroom? Nope, that obviously won't work, that's about furniture and fixtures. How about "toiletries"? No, that doesn't exist as a category. It's not an "avatar accessory" -- that would be something like a belt or a mask. Hmm....what have my fellow sellers put this item under? One has "home and gardens" -- and that's it. Another has "home and gardens - decor" -- which I use a lot. A third has "used". Let me suggest that when you have a system that forces people to take an ordinary household item and have to try three different categories -- or more -- you have a problem. You have a problem with a) not enough refined categories and popular and common words and b) a system that forces people into top categories c) a system that drives people to large, capacious, stupid categories like "used" because then they won't be punished. 

That's why you aren't making more money.

Once again, it's not true that items put into a top level category actually "sell less" BECAUSE the behaviour of people searching for gatchas is most often to put the entire name of the object into search and pulling it up that way, not looking for them generically -- although they may do that, too. And there are overwhelming numbers of gatchas put in top-level only! Like "home and gardens" or "landscaping" and not "fence", all of which are selling as we speak like hotcakes and you can't possibly nab and punish them all. So don't. The "top level" rule serves no purpose. It's a guideline. You can change it.

Page through the zillions of gatchas and see how many are in top categories only -- and sell constantly all day long -- and realize you can't punish them all. And realize they sell despite being in top categories because frankly, categories don't matter much for gatchas to anybody but you. Most people search for them by their full exact name, or the name of the set, or the creator's name plus a name of one of the things in the set.

Sliding a price to "low" in searching for a fence really will not turn up that truly cheap $25 fence which is a gatcha that might even have once been a $75 pull from a famous creator. Typing in "gatcha fence" will really work better. Giving search tips might be a better way to move the products on your MP rather than forcing people to drill down into categories and risk punishment.

In conclusion, sure, it's easy to ridicule a person like me who explains in good faith that it is TOO HARD TO SELL on your MP BECAUSE OF CATEGORIES -- something everyone knows, especially gatcha sellers -- and invoke this or that actual category they might have overlooked, or corporate guidelines that you imply are immutable.

But the reality is, you could a) add a lot more categories b) not be punitive on the top-category issue and you would make a lot of money. So you really have to ask why you are doing that. So as I think about this I suppose the reason could be you'd like to discourage gatcha sales. Like telehubs, they are the object of hatred and derision by the socialists on the forums and those who want the market to contain only their own clothes, houses and weapons and no one else's -- and this prosumer's lobbying group matters to you for some reason, I don't know why (they are likeminded or include top grossing creators). So you are lobbied on this. Or, another possibility is that creators of gatchas want all the sales of them to go to themselves, at pull price. They don't want re-sales to go on at half price or less because they make no money from that sale. That this is classic first-sale doctrine eludes them as they imagine they are being harmed -- and they lobby you. I can't figure out anything else.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Dakota Linden]

On 1/25/2019 at 1:17 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

Dakota,

Thanks for your detailed response. I review the link for "Marketplace Categories" daily, even multiple times a day, when I...try to fathom which category a thing should go in. That's why we're having this conversation.

<snipped>

 

 

Hello Prokofy,

If you are unsure which category a Gacha item should go into, then the easiest thing to do is put the listing into the Gacha Category. Both buyers and sellers requested that category for Gacha items to, in part, address confusion regarding where the listings should be placed.

I am sorry that you feel that you have been, or are being, ridiculed.  You are not. 

I am a Customer Service Agent, as my forum signature indicates. My job is to try to help buyers and sellers with using the Marketplace and complying with its existing policies and guidelines. 

If you, as a seller, are not satisfied with the categories, or the way things work, on the Marketplace, then you MUST submit a Jira Ticket for the Devs/Engineers.  The Devs and Engineers are the only ones who can change the way things work on the Marketplace, including adding more categories. 

While some Linden Lab employees who work on the Marketplace may monitor or scan through the posts on the Merchants Forum to see what the users of the Marketplace may be discussing, or in case a report of an odd issues pops up, this is not, and never has been, the appropriate location for requesting Marketplace Updates/Changes or to report Marketplace Bugs.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dakota Linden

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/28/2019 at 1:25 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Hello Prokofy,

If you are unsure which category a Gacha item should go into, then the easiest thing to do is put the listing into the Gacha Category. Both buyers and sellers requested that category for Gacha items to, in part, address confusion regarding where the listings should be placed.

I am sorry that you feel that you have been, or are being, ridiculed.  You are not. 

I am a Customer Service Agent, as my forum signature indicates. My job is to try to help buyers and sellers with using the Marketplace and complying with its existing policies and guidelines. 

If you, as a seller, are not satisfied with the categories, or the way things work, on the Marketplace, then you MUST submit a Jira Ticket for the Devs/Engineers.  The Devs and Engineers are the only ones who can change the way things work on the Marketplace, including adding more categories. 

While some Linden Lab employees who work on the Marketplace may monitor or scan through the posts on the Merchants Forum to see what the users of the Marketplace may be discussing, or in case a report of an odd issues pops up, this is not, and never has been, the appropriate location for requesting Marketplace Updates/Changes or to report Marketplace Bugs.

1. So just to confirm -- any gatcha sold on the MP that is set merely to the "gatcha" category and not some other category or sub-category where it might "belong" will not be removed by Lindens. 

If that's the case, welcome to a flood into that category, which does indeed ease MP sales by making it far easier to upload without fussing about categories. Since most people search by full names of an item, it likely doesn't harm sales. Those that want to fuss with categories are presumably still free to do so and will not be punished because they didn't put it in some other category besides "Gatcha". 

2. You really should take up my challenge of buying 100 gatcha items and then uploading -- to categories NOT "gatcha" (if "gatcha" is now that free-for-all that you seem to indicate). If the Lindens won't give you the budget for this, I'm happy to send you $5000.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Blush Bravin]

On rare occasions I will play a gacha to get a rare, again that's a rare occurance, but in those situations I do list my extras in the MP using Debi. I will NOT be putting any of my gacha items in the gacha category. For me that category is useless. Also, I will NOT be browsing the gacha category for items to purchase. When I do shop the marketplace I either look specifically by name or more likely within the category of the type of item I want to find. 

It is absurd to think that anyone with a brain would browse a category as broad as "gacha", IMO.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[So Whimsy]

@Blush Bravin I have a Gacha Resell alt that I needed to make when I decided I had far too many things I never used and didn't want to put them into my animation store. I had over a thousand listings when I started selling. Imho, I even believe it was more than 1500.

I was elated to see the Gacha category and like the good person I am I immediately moved every single listing to that category. Do you know how long that took? About 5 minutes. Did my sales drop? Nope.

So, after reading your posts about needing to 'protect gacha resellers' and the general fear mongering you are doing, let me tell you as a quite big Gacha Reseller that all of that is utter bull. Moving things to that category is a thing of seconds, if not less than 10 minutes even if you have a thousand listings. It really IS that easy. My gacha items are in the correct category and I no longer have to contribute to the horrible spam.

I am a Gacha Reseller and I hate the freaking Gacha spam all over the MP like the plague, thanks Lindens for making the category but shame on you for not making it mandatory.

Blush, you are very misguided and I can't figure out why. You seem very passionate to fight for us resellers when  I am far from the only one who thinks the gacha category should be mandatory. You are adding to the spam problem on the MP. We had to struggle with the demos for the longest time making it hard to find things, then gacha's came and the MP is a freaking mess and it hurts non-gacha merchants big time as they simply get drowned under a huge pile of gacha spam.

Oh, and if you do not believe me, ApothicStore is my alt. I can log into her for you to verify even

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Syn Anatine said:

@Blush Bravin I have a Gacha Resell alt that I needed to make when I decided I had far too many things I never used and didn't want to put them into my animation store. I had over a thousand listings when I started selling. Imho, I even believe it was more than 1500.

I was elated to see the Gacha category and like the good person I am I immediately moved every single listing to that category. Do you know how long that took? About 5 minutes. Did my sales drop? Nope.

So, after reading your posts about needing to 'protect gacha resellers' and the general fear mongering you are doing, let me tell you as a quite big Gacha Reseller that all of that is utter bull. Moving things to that category is a thing of seconds, if not less than 10 minutes even if you have a thousand listings. It really IS that easy. My gacha items are in the correct category and I no longer have to contribute to the horrible spam.

I am a Gacha Reseller and I hate the freaking Gacha spam all over the MP like the plague, thanks Lindens for making the category but shame on you for not making it mandatory.

Blush, you are very misguided and I can't figure out why. You seem very passionate to fight for us resellers when  I am far from the only one who thinks the gacha category should be mandatory. You are adding to the spam problem on the MP. We had to struggle with the demos for the longest time making it hard to find things, then gacha's came and the MP is a freaking mess and it hurts non-gacha merchants big time as they simply get drowned under a huge pile of gacha spam.

Oh, and if you do not believe me, ApothicStore is my alt. I can log into her for you to verify even

You are certainly welcome to your opinion as I am mine. When I do go gacha shopping I look through specific categories so I won't likely find any of your gacha items as I'd have to browse through a huge mess to find anything at all. I have better things to do with my time than searching through a catch-all category where the only commonality is that the item was originally sold in a gacha machine.

My opposition to the category has NOTHING to do with how long it would take anyone to move their items from what I consider a valid category to the fiasco that is the gacha category.  Learn to use NOT and AND when searching and gacha isn't an ordeal. Seriously! 

I personally think the best solution to this issue is a check box for gacha items as has been suggested by many in these forums.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[So Whimsy]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I have better things to do with my time than searching through a catch-all category where the only commonality is that the item was originally sold in a gacha machine.

Ah, so this isn't about you caring about gacha resellers, you simply care about your time.

 

As do we, so why should your time weight more than ours? Why should you get to save time when it not only makes most people waste theirs but it also hurts non-gacha merchants?

 

Edit: As has been stated before the NOT and AND 'tricks' don't work because most people filter by NEW items not relevancy (for obvious reasons as Ethan has stated before also). So stop beating that dead and non-working horse.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Syn Anatine