Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

[Sammy Huntsman]

31 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Handing over our ability to reason ethically to technology means handing it over to the people who run the tech. Doing so has serious real life consequences, like the UK's decision to tank our economy because disaster capitalists figured out how to exploit data mining on the internet.

Why should we go along with that sort of thinking and let them win?

There are ALL sorts of things most of us don't do in real life because of social norms and respect. How hard is it to just come back to the shop on another day or go somewhere else for your new pixel fix? What's gained from disrespecting a shop owner's wishes is miniscule and fleeting, at most it's a sense of having got one over on someone you look down on. What's lost is part of a bigger picture where we are unwittingly handing over capabilities our societies depend upon.

So here's an invitation to think about this ethically. Is getting one over on someone you disagree with worth dancing to the tune of someone who doesn't care about you or your needs? They're two sides of the same coin. What about relying on technological fixes? What happens when the fixes we're relying on are dependent on those whose ethical reasoning is detrimental to society? Real life examples make it clear we need to do better.

So because content creators in SL are somehow evil, way to put all under an umbrella. That is how I am reading it, it is ethically okay, to go and disrespect their wishes? Try explaining that to a cop, when you break into a store to get something, using the argument it is ethically okay to do so. You would still be charged with theft. Look they are allowed to take breaks, and ask people to not go into their stores, or purchase stuff, from neighboring regions.  I think it's more ethical to listen to their request and just wait. Do you really need the item right now, or can you be patient for a couple of days? 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

28 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Do you have any idea how many orthodox interpretation of the Toyreh exist? Just because it is OK for one of them does not mean it is for all.

Did i say he spoke for all Jewish people? He gave me HIS opinion. But yes.. You are not making any money in SL until you cash out. And as he is actually a Rabbi, i would take his opinion over just about anyone elses. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

38 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

I think it's more ethical to listen to their request and just wait. Do you really need the item right now, or can you be patient for a couple of days? 

I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing with Bitsy here: this is pretty much exactly what she has said elsewhere above, and it's certainly the implication of the post from which you're quoting.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing with Bitsy here: this is pretty much exactly what she has said elsewhere above, and it's certainly the implication of the post from which you're quoting.

Until proven otherwise, I'm going with the premise that halebore is agreeing with me and the disagreeing words are directed to a different mindset. If nothing else, it makes for a more pleasant evening

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Handing over our ability to reason ethically to technology means handing it over to the people who run the tech. 

In some ways, I think it's scarier than this implies, because I think we're reaching a point at which the tech is "running" the technologists.

I'm always struck for instance by the attitude of techno-utopians to data. It's not merely that they want to "free" it. The cliche is that "Information wants to be free." The agency comes not from us but from the "information" itself: the impulse isn't the result of humans weighing the pros and cons, but represents instead a simple acknowledgment of the inevitable destiny of data itself. Accordingly, the task of we mere humans is to empower "information" to be all that it innately "wants" to be. Too bad for the human values -- privacy, for instance, agency and free will -- that get in the way.

Having created systems that reduce all information to data and employ algorithms to "read" this that, at best, only mimic the enormously complex human processes of thought and analysis, we're now increasingly changing how we live to suit the system, rather than the other way around. It's easier, faster, more efficient, and it employs mathematical models that seem elegant and logical.

Ethics is hard: we're still struggling with arguments Socrates laid down nearly 2500 years ago.

How much easier to circumvent such questions and focus instead on what the tech does or does not  empower us to do!

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

They can ban you from buying the product, through the vendor

Thanks.   I didn't know you could ban people via the vendor abilities.  Since I am not a store owner, I know nothing of what any particular vendor system could do for you in that area.

 

Personally, I had no intention of buying from the vendors when the store owner has stated they are closed. It was just that the questions around banning and buying from the neighboring parcel got me to thinking about how typical bans work.  Typically, someone would ban you from their parcel via the inworld land/estate tools.  If there is another parcel on the same region or an adjacent region that you have access to, then I was wondering if the land ban would keep you from buying from vendors located on the land if you could manage to cam to them.  Not because I was going to try it, but just from my normal curiosity about how things work.

[iamyourneighbour]

On 11/30/2018 at 2:25 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

I happened to see a notice in a store that I frequent quite a bit that states the store will now be closing on Fridays at sunset until Saturday at sunset - title "Closed on Sabbath".  And the notice specifically states that if you cam shop from a neighboring store during that time, you may be banned from the store. 

When I was a child, we had Blue Laws in RL -- stores, other than grocery stores, could not be open on Sundays. It was hold over from our early religious days here in the US where Sunday was the Sabbath and we were supposed to do nothing besides worship on that day.  Even though I thought the laws were ridiculous, I somewhat understood where it came from because way, way back, life was quite often rule by religion.  However, these days, not so much.  There are still some RL places that do not open on Sunday for religious reasons and there are people that refuse to work on Sunday for religious reasons.  I don't have any problems with personal choices like that as long as the government is not imposing it on us like they used to.

I don't have any issues with anyone in SL refusing to log in on their Sabbath or do any SL work /activity on their holy day.  I am a tad confused, however, on how allowing sales from their store fit into the religious views.  Admittedly, I am not religious by any means, and thus many religious views perplex me.

Has anyone encountered such in SL before?

You may want to ask them if they are familiar with the bird law which states that if you have wings you can cam shop.

What you need to do is claim to be non binary and create massive forkroad situation of religion vs LGBT+ conflict. Anyone questioning your motive call them transphobic. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by iamyourneighbour

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Thanks.   I didn't know you could ban people via the vendor abilities.  Since I am not a store owner, I know nothing of what any particular vendor system could do for you in that area.

No problem, I know a few people who were outright banned from buying from their vendors. You can do it with Casper, so I can imagine you can do it with the other ones too. 

[Selene Gregoire]

7 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

So because content creators in SL are somehow evil, way to put all under an umbrella. That is how I am reading it, it is ethically okay, to go and disrespect their wishes? Try explaining that to a cop, when you break into a store to get something, using the argument it is ethically okay to do so. You would still be charged with theft. Look they are allowed to take breaks, and ask people to not go into their stores, or purchase stuff, from neighboring regions.  I think it's more ethical to listen to their request and just wait. Do you really need the item right now, or can you be patient for a couple of days? 

I think you should re-read Bitsy's post again because that is not how I read it. At all.

If I'm wrong and I'm the one who misunderstood her post, I'm sure she will correct me. 

The paragraph below is the one I think you either misunderstood or missed reading it"

7 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

There are ALL sorts of things most of us don't do in real life because of social norms and respect. How hard is it to just come back to the shop on another day or go somewhere else for your new pixel fix? What's gained from disrespecting a shop owner's wishes is miniscule and fleeting, at most it's a sense of having got one over on someone you look down on. What's lost is part of a bigger picture where we are unwittingly handing over capabilities our societies depend upon.

You're both saying the same thing. Bitsy just took it further.

 

ETA: And maybe, once in a while, I should finish reading the thread before posting.... 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Selene Gregoire

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In some ways, I think it's scarier than this implies, because I think we're reaching a point at which the tech is "running" the technologists.

The more I find out about the crap FB has pulled, the less I believe that runaway tech is to blame. I think it's more about Lookitwhaticando coupled with outright greed and tripping on power. Blaming it all on algorithms lets the people who made them off too lightly.

[Alyona Su]

11 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Thanks.   I didn't know you could ban people via the vendor abilities.  Since I am not a store owner, I know nothing of what any particular vendor system could do for you in that area.

Only Casper system. 

9 hours ago, iamyourneighbour said:

You may want to ask them if they are familiar with the bird law which states that if you have wings you can cam shop.

This.

9 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

No problem, I know a few people who were outright banned from buying from their vendors. You can do it with Casper, so I can imagine you can do it with the other ones too. 

Only Casper system. There may be others, though unlikely. There is a reason Casper system is 10K just for the basic system. Which means there is a 90% chance that what iamyourneighbour says is true.

[Fionalein]

6 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

ETA: And maybe, once in a while, I should finish reading the thread before posting.... 

But where's the fun in that?

[Lestat Reuven]

First I'd like to say, it is my store. When I started closing on "my" Sabbath I sent out a notice and said message ME if you have any questions, I understood the concept would be different from the SL norm. No one asked, not one.

 

  For the curious, I'm American, follower of Jesus Christ and I have come under the understanding I am to keep the Torah. Keeping the Sabbath is in the basic ten commandments. I'm not associated with any denomination. 

 

 I have over 1000 vendors, not scripted and no marketplace store. I have no ban lines in place but could ban off the entire sim if I chose too, but that would not give me a chance to explain to people popping in the reason for closing and cause more confusion.

 

  I'm in weekly events, I leave my 2 and 3 day events out all week. (Wednesday till Wednesday) I'm more than generous with half priced new releases for 24 hours and plenty of group gifts. If I happen to set out a new release at 50% off on a Friday afternoon, it is left out until Sunday night. Yes, I do miss out on major events outside of my sim. 

 

  I keep "my" Sabbath and wrote this in my group notice, also there is a note card available to anyone stating the time zone I'm in. I have a designated landmark for them to fall into a cozy little build with comfortable furniture and the information poster. There should never have been any confusion, I'm very approachable.

 

  I more than make up for the day they cannot shop at my store with outstanding customer service. Meaning I answer every im and every note card, will drop RL to come in at any time I see an email from a customer message in SL..if they need in world assistance I come in then, not the next day.  If I see someone has accidentally paid full price for a item I have on special, I come in and refund the money. 

 

  Second Life is my job. I work on a old computer, SL has become more detailed, it takes me 8-12 hours just to texture and package an outfit. It is a lot of work in which I would be paid more working at the local fast food store but I love what I do and I adore my customers. So me saying in my real life tab in my profile, "In RL I secretly hate SL" that means I hated my job that week..which no one said ever....crickets. I cannot lie and say I love everything about second life everyday...but I try to be very kind, kindness covers many errors.

 

  Also, I changed the note card in my information poster, saying I would no longer ban anyone but would not feel the same about them if they purchased an item. Since I have started taking Sabbaths in SL, only one person purchased an item....one (I didn't ban them nor would I have). Not bad for 3 months I have witness a side of people I never thought I would, honorable. Having respect for another person they may not agree with, but honoring their requests.

 

  Second Life can be a wonderful world most days and I hope to be in here another (almost) 13 years. If you still have questions lol im me in world. I really hope that you will I am to be a light unto the world ❤️

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 minutes ago, Lestat Reuven said:

First I'd like to say, it is my store. When I started closing on "my" Sabbath I sent out a notice and said message ME if you have any questions, I understood the concept would be different from the SL norm. No one asked, not one.

 

  For the curious, I'm American, follower of Jesus Christ and I have come under the understanding I am to keep the Torah. Keeping the Sabbath is in the basic ten commandments. I'm not associated with any denomination. 

 

If you don't log in on the Sabbath, how are yoiu breaking it by leaving your SL store open? YOU are not working. You are not there. I'm not picking a fight here, i am honestly curious. I would assume you don't answer any emails pertaining to your business on The Sabbath either? 

[Lestat Reuven]

5 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If you don't log in on the Sabbath, how are yoiu breaking it by leaving your SL store open? YOU are not working. You are not there. I'm not picking a fight here, i am honestly curious. I would assume you don't answer any emails pertaining to your business on The Sabbath either? 

Drake, message me in world, I'll answer any question..that I am able. This is very personal to me and I'd rather not discuss details in  a public forum... In saying that, I will turn off my notices to the board and take any questions in world...have  a great weekend ❤️

[Selene Gregoire]

47 minutes ago, Lestat Reuven said:

would no longer ban anyone but would not feel the same about them if they purchased an item

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Lestat Reuven said:

First I'd like to say, it is my store. When I started closing on "my" Sabbath I sent out a notice and said message ME if you have any questions, I understood the concept would be different from the SL norm. No one asked, not one.

I started the thread. While I was a tad curious about the religious stuff behind it, it wasn't really a big deal to me, hence why I didn't question you about it.  I even stated a few times in the thread that I figured people could do as they wish in regards to their religion and I sure wasn't going to get upset by it.  I was more curious about whether anyone else had encountered it in SL before.  This forum is a good place for everyone to discuss things that go on in SL and I was interested in others' experiences and opinions.  

[Skell Dagger]

7 hours ago, Lestat Reuven said:

I will turn off my notices to the board and take any questions in world

While the above sounds like "I won't return to this thread" - on the offchance that you do then please be aware that formatting your text as you did makes it look like this to those of us who use the forum's dark theme:

Normally with responses like that I have to highlight the entire post and read it 'in negative', but because you'd formatted in small Arial Narrow font even that was difficult. I ended up opening Notepad and pasting your post into it, just so that I could read it without straining my eyes. Your response to Drake, however, was fine as you didn't re-format that. The below is how text should look to those of us using the dark theme:

 

[Fionalein]

8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If you don't log in on the Sabbath, how are yoiu breaking it by leaving your SL store open? YOU are not working. You are not there. I'm not picking a fight here, i am honestly curious. I would assume you don't answer any emails pertaining to your business on The Sabbath either? 

Why do orthodox jews not ride the bus on saturday? It is not their fire powering the bus, it is the bus company's...

Same logic aplies here yet they won't - there are many interpetations on the why. As jews unlike catholics lack a central highest authority among mortals there is not one common interpretation. One common interpretation is by having a service working you are responsible for it. While it will be still available if you do not use it (bus will serve it's line wether you use it or not) if enough people would not use it there would be no bus on Sabbat. So accoriding to this logic you are kinda responsible for it. The fire was lit because of you and worse yet: because you used the bus you made the bus driver break the Sabbat laws as well.

While we usually work towards it's removal, the "day of rest" meme is deeply implanted in our culture. Hands up who considered the enforced weekly shutdowns at the end of "Ready Player One" a move of unjustifyed governance... because think about it: it is just a resurgence of our "day of rest" meme.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Fionalein

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Why do orthodox jews not ride the bus on saturday? It is not their fire powering the bus, it is the bus company's...

The vehicle's ignition combusts fuel, which is considered to violate one of the 39 prohibited activities on Shabbat. It doesn't matter who is driving the vehicle. 

4 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Same logic aplies here yet they won't - there are many interpetations on the why. As jews unlike catholics lack a central highest authority among mortals there is not one common interpretation. One common interpretation is by having a service working you are responsible for it. While it will be still available if you do not use it (bus will serve it's line wether you use it or not) if enough people would not use it there would be no bus on Sabbat. So accoriding to this logic you are kinda responsible for it. The fire was lit because of you and worse yet: because you used the bus you made the bus driver break the Sabbat laws as well.

No, the same logic does not apply here. So long as they do not log in, THEY are not selling anything. They are NOT working. According to some, electricity should not be used at all on the Sabbath. 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

If I catch anyone eating shrimp on my sim, I'll ban them. Just sayin'.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Why do orthodox jews not ride the bus on saturday? It is not their fire powering the bus, it is the bus company's...

Same logic aplies here yet they won't - there are many interpetations on the why. As jews unlike catholics lack a central highest authority among mortals there is not one common interpretation. One common interpretation is by having a service working you are responsible for it. While it will be still available if you do not use it (bus will serve it's line wether you use it or not) if enough people would not use it there would be no bus on Sabbat. So accoriding to this logic you are kinda responsible for it. The fire was lit because of you and worse yet: because you used the bus you made the bus driver break the Sabbat laws as well.

While we usually work towards it's removal, the "day of rest" meme is deeply implanted in our culture. Hands up who considered the enforced weekly shutdowns at the end of "Ready Player One" a move of unjustifyed governance... because think about it: it is just a resurgence of our "day of rest" meme.

Soooo if their house catches fire on their sabbath, would they forbid the firemen from doing work to put out the fire?

Any religious proscription will becomes ridiculous in the extreme case.

[Syo Emerald]

This pseudo-friendly tone makes my skin crawl...

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

This pseudo-friendly tone makes my skin crawl...

At least a pseudo-friendly tone isn't ARable.... yet

Missed you at the pool party last night.

*grins*

[chibiusa Ling]

22 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

At least a pseudo-friendly tone isn't ARable.... yet

Give it time

Edited February 3, 2019 by chibiusa Ling
Avoiding the popo