Men Not Liking Men: The Shocking Truth about Male-Pattern Loneliness in SL!

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The OP based this on her personal anecdotes:

"Anecdotally, this is something I've been told at one time or another by probably most of my male acquaintances in SL: their friends, they have told me, are nearly all women. (Two of my male friends have said this to me literally within the last three days.)"

So you'd either support or counter her theory with anecdotes of your own, depending on whether this stereotype matched your reality or not. If most of the replies match what she's already been told, then that stereotype probably has some truth to it. If most of the replies talk of different experiences, then the reverse is true. In either case, she's learned something new rather than just assuming that the stereotype is true.

I really do not think that Scylla is looking for validation alone, she's made it quite clear (in subsequent edits and posts) that correction would be equally great as validation. This thread can be boiled down to her saying "I've noticed this, has anyone else noticed this?", and to that question both no and yes are equally valid answers. "This offends me" is not an answer to that question.

I see. Even though she said several times that she was looking for validation, that could mean “no”, not “yes”.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

fact, what has most surprised me about responses to this thread has been the implication that "accusing" men of  "loneliness" is somehow some kind of deadly insult. The stereotypes would have us believe that loneliness is deeply gendered: men are individualistic and self-sufficient, where women are sociable and emotionally dependent upon community. In that context, to "accuse" men of loneliness should be less an insult than an irrelevancy.

My responses along the line of “why are you saying men are lonely”, would have been better stated as you did. However, I agree with posts that in general that men are socialized to hide their feelings; yet SL is a place to “broaden your horizons”, if someone is afraid to make friends in SL, they are “doing it wrong”.

I wonder if anyone brought up that many, both male and female are in SL became they are RL “lonely”?

[Callum Meriman]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So this has been a valuable education for me. The mere fact that men can feel insulted by the implication that they are lonely represents a sea change, or at the least a corrective to the stereotype.

You still find the need to take a dig at men.

Look, I was insulted by the clickbait, body shaming title, I was insulted by the insinuation I was part of MRA.

But I wasn't insulted by an insuinuation of loneliness, because that isn't true for me, nor the men I know.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

IBTL, as they say.

There won’t be a lock unless someone reports the thread. There is no “heated discussion”, there are no traded insults, nobody is getting personal, neither politics nor religion are being discussed. We are merely having a discussion. If you think the level of discussion warrants a lock then, I’m sorry for that.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

41 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Edited in later.

 

Callum, this is now the second time at least that you have asserted that the wording of the OP has been changed or tampered with after the fact to make it seem more acceptable.

To be clear: that is quite simply a falsehood. I appended a clearly marked supplement, and highlighted some of the existing text. The actual wording is absolutely unchanged from that which I originally posted. 

I have addressed this in the appended note, and separately above in a response to you.

If you are going to persist in insisting that in have deceptively changed the wording of the OP, you are effectively accusing me of an outright lie, here and elsewhere. And if that's the case, I'm done with you. I can't be bothered to continue a conversation with someone who so clearly has such little respect for me.

[Klaineanderson]

I m guy with femboy avi,i had 2 female friends and one just left SL because of RL marriage and another passed away after some troubles with HIV,now i log on in SL just for my closest friend Jan (who is on pics with me) and log on sometimes for advents and hunts.  I don t see much activity in gay places, but i m sure most of gays are not bored)

[AyelaNewLife]

Okay so quick data point to add to the discussion:

In between writing my last couple of posts, I asked four of my male friends/contacts to describe the gender balance of their friends list. I gave them a few options, and one of them picked "mostly women", the other two picked "almost entirely women". That would seem to support Scylla's theory, right?

Eh. Sorta.

All four of them are involved in the "adult flickr" community, three of them are photographers that do a lot of erotic work, and the other is pretty much just a model. That's a community that is overwhelmingly made up of women. The events there will usually have a 5:1 women:men ratio or higher, and talented male models and photographers are unfortunately quite rare. And, just like me, a large chunk of their friends list is made up of contacts in that community, almost like having your work colleagues' numbers in your phone. They are listed, but that doesn't mean that you're friends.

So I asked them to repeat the question, but only consider the people they actually considered to be friends, rather than just contacts. Two said "mostly women", one said "half and half".... and the other had to leave for work before I asked him, whoops.

Does that sample of 3/4 people tell us anything? Maybe.

I do think there's a difference between "friends" and "contacts", and I do think the gender balance of your "contacts" will be swayed by sexual interest for most people. Less for some people and more for others, for sure, but surely there's an overall influence?

But actual friends? Sexual interest might have an indirect connection, maybe; a guy contacts a girl (or vice versa) looking for the sexytimes, gets added to the friends list, yet an actual friendship ends up developing. If you are subconsciously gender-blind in your friendships, yet have many more interactions with women than men, surely you'd end up with more female friends than male, right? That's why one of the men I spoke to answered "mostly" to both questions; proportionally he has as many male contacts as he has male friends.

Yet the other two are different, the other two men have a higher proportion of their actual friends as male than their contacts list. Which gives another potential explanation as to what Scylla is seeing; men still have a tendency to be friends with men (homosociality), but that is heavily diluted with the raw number of women they encounter. Whereas in real life most men will have more male acquaintances than female, in SL the population is not 50:50 but probably closer to 60:40 or 70:30 (not sure exact split), so most men will end up meeting more women than men. So even if they have a conscious or subconscious "friendship preference" for men over women, they still end up with more female friends than men. Probably. 

I think that's one factor among many, at least. Because there is no "one correct answer" for why we see certain trends in populations of people, it's always a whole bunch of factors (some of which counter the overall trend anyway) that average out across an entire population of people. And sometimes those trends even match up to the stereotypes we have... and other times, they do not.

Sorry for the brain dump x

[Selene Gregoire]

5 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Edited in later.

 

No. I read the OP before it was ever edited. She hasn't changed anything other than the color of the text and an ETA which is clearly and plainly marked as ETA.

[Skell Dagger]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In fact, what has most surprised me about responses to this thread has been the implication that "accusing" men of  "loneliness" is somehow some kind of deadly insult. The stereotypes would have us believe that loneliness is deeply gendered: men are individualistic and self-sufficient, where women are sociable and emotionally dependent upon community. In that context, to "accuse" men of loneliness should be less an insult than an irrelevancy.

We occasionally see posts here -- a little sad and upsetting, sometimes -- from residents wondering where all the people are. They are poignant reminders that loneliness is an actual affliction for some. I should probably have been more cognizant of this as well.

So this has been a valuable education for me. The mere fact that men can feel insulted by the implication that they are lonely represents a sea change, or at the least a corrective to the stereotype.

No.

You are ascribing intent to my words that was never there. I simply pointed out the difference between the two words, as per:

• alone - the state of being in solitude (a physical state of being)
• lonely - the state of needing/wishing for companionship, often as a comfort (an emotional state of being)

The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. One can, of course, feel lonely in the middle of a crowded room. You say that you understand the differences in meaning of those words, but again, below, you use the words "loneliness" and "lonely" (words that describe an emotional state) when "aloneness" or "solitude" and "solitary" (words that describe a physical state) would have been more accurate to the context of your post:

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 The stereotypes would have us believe that loneliness is deeply gendered: men are individualistic and self-sufficient, where women are sociable and emotionally dependent upon community. In that context, to "accuse" men of loneliness should be less an insult than an irrelevancy.

[ ... ]

The mere fact that men can feel insulted by the implication that they are lonely represents a sea change, or at the least a corrective to the stereotype.

You even mention the stereotypes of men being self-sufficient (ie: not needing others around them for emotional support) and women being "emotionally dependant" upon community. Saying that men "feel insulted by the implication of loneliness" when they are simply pointing out the difference in meaning between two words is one hell of a stretch. That is the dig you're making here, not the implication of insult that you perceive to be present.

For example: I love solitude. I thrive on it. I can be as sociable and garrulous as any other little butterfly when I'm in a room full of people, but I prefer to be alone. The only times when I actually feel lonely are when I'm feeling really down about something and could do with a hug, but I have nobody nearby to offer that hug at that precise moment.

I cannot see where any man in this thread has taken the "implication of loneliness" as a "deadly insult" (emotive and exaggerated language use there, too, by the way). In one case word use - yet again - is being countered, as Callum has taken issue with your using a gendered stereotype (male-pattern baldness) in the thread title. Jokey or not, consider the female response if a man had used "nags on the rag" (as a loose, off-the-top-of-my-head example) as a title for a forum discussion about b!tchiness or drama among some groups of women in SL. Using a gendered stereotype as a title's basis will tend to immediately colour the reactions of those responding, before they even click to read the body of the post itself. "Nags on the rag" as a title would - quite rightly - set the post on a dead course toward a large distaff iceberg.

Your post goes on to invite discussion as to why men don't appear to socialise with each other in SL, but because you used emotive language ("loneliness") to equate to a physical state of being ("solitude") in the title people will read your post with those headline words already in their mind. You joke about the title being click-baity, but I think we've all been stung by such titles wherein the click-bait immediately sets our expectations, but the text that follows lets us down in some way.

Words matter. As a feminist and a woman you know that all too well. One only has to consider the 'animal insults' and phrases aimed at women (cow, b!tch, henpecking, etc) whose opposites (bull, dog, c0ck-of-the-walk, etc) are actually complimentary when aimed at men.

As to the overall contect of your post, the characteristic homosociality of women vs men most likely comes down to simple prehistory and the millennia of male-female roles that have only been upended in relatively recent times. It takes a village to raise a child, but it was probably Ogg and Ugg who undertook the dangerous task of hunting meat for food, while - tasked with bearing, rearing, and protecting the next generation - Oggette and Uggette stayed close to the cave, emerging to forage for berries and fetch water. There was no infant formula back then, so if the women were killed in the hunt there would be nobody to feed the children and the survival of the tribe would be in danger. Women were the security of the tribe's future, and they built the social networks that would help them maintain that survival. Yes, there are endless discussions to be had about male advantage, privilege, and domination in more recent times, but the vast majority of social conditioning is most likely based on that ancient and very real necessity.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Skell Dagger
Because *of course* the word for a male chicken is a naughty one...

[sirhc DeSantis]

On 11/29/2018 at 6:38 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, so, yes. That was a bit click-baity.

I don't actually have access to the "truth"

😞

•  

Just to remind myself why I bothered to respond at all.

As for the rest. I am a cat. That is my RL picture.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:57 AM, Skell Dagger said:

You even mention the stereotypes of men being self-sufficient (ie: not needing others around them for emotional support) and women being "emotionally dependant" upon community. Saying that men "feel insulted by the implication of loneliness" when they are simply pointing out the difference in meaning between two words is one hell of a stretch. That is the dig you're making here, not the implication of insult that you perceive to be present.

Well, what I actually say, to give the full quote, is that, were the stereotype true, "to 'accuse' men of loneliness should be less an insult than an irrelevancy." In other words, I'm agreeing with you: the stereotype does not adequately describe what men actually experience. The fact that using the word "loneliness" to describe them is an insult -- something that you make clear -- implies that the stereotype can't be true.

On 11/30/2018 at 11:57 AM, Skell Dagger said:

I cannot see where any man in this thread has taken the "implication of loneliness" as a "deadly insult" (emotive and exaggerated language use there, too, by the way). In one case word use - yet again - is being countered, as Callum has taken issue with your using a gendered stereotype (male-pattern baldness) in the thread title. Jokey or not, consider the female response if a man had used "nags on the rag" (as a loose, off-the-top-of-my-head example) as a title for a forum discussion about b!tchiness or drama among some groups of women in SL. Using a gendered stereotype as a title's basis will tend to immediately colour the reactions of those responding, before they even click to read the body of the post itself. "Nags on the rag" as a title would - quite rightly - set the post on a dead course toward a large distaff iceberg.

I'll address your larger point about my title in a moment, but I just briefly want to address your analogy -- between an allusion to "male-pattern baldness" and the term "nags on the rag."

Menstruation has, in an enormous variety of ways, been used to "other" women for millennia: it has been used to suggest that women are alien, that they are literally "unclean," that they are prone to emotionalism and a breakdown of reason, and, of course, that they are being punished for The Fall. There is a very clear reason why it is often called "The Curse." And there is an equally clear reason why menstruation has become a common theme and motif in feminist art. Women are trying to re-appropriate, and re-value a simple biological function that "marks" us as women, but that, more importantly, has been used as a tool of power, control, and oppression.

I honestly don't think that "male-pattern baldness" has that kind of political and historical resonance. And for that reason, I think your analogy sets up a false equivalency. One is, perhaps, mean-spirited and even, possibly, sexist; the other is the repetition of a trope that has had very real impact upon gender relations for centuries and centuries.

That said, I do take your broader point that my use of "male-pattern baldness" was insulting and, to say the least, unfortunate. I was honestly surprised that it provoked the kind of reaction that it has, but that's not actually relevant: I don't get to determine what you as a man should be insulted by any more than you have the authority to determine what I find to be misogynist.

So, with that in mind, I apologize for my use of that term in my title, without qualification. I should have been more sensitive and thoughtful about what it might mean to men.

On 11/30/2018 at 11:57 AM, Skell Dagger said:

As to the overall contect of your post, the characteristic homosociality of women vs men most likely comes down to simple prehistory and the millennia of male-female roles that have only been upended in relatively recent times. It takes a village to raise a child, but it was probably Ogg and Ugg who undertook the dangerous task of hunting meat for food, while - tasked with bearing, rearing, and protecting the next generation - Oggette and Uggette stayed close to the cave, emerging to forage for berries and fetch water. There was no infant formula back then, so if the women were killed in the hunt there would be nobody to feed the children and the survival of the tribe would be in danger. Women were the security of the tribe's future, and they built the social networks that would help them maintain that survival. Yes, there are endless discussions to be had about male advantage, privilege, and domination in more recent times, but the vast majority of social conditioning is most likely based on that ancient and very real necessity.

And yes, I agree that much of the social conditioning of the genders probably has these kinds of origins -- and other germane historical ones like it.

The danger is when this kind of logic, whatever its historical relevance, becomes a means of naturalizing a hierarchy and social construct that has looooong outlived its best-before-date. If there is any truth to the stereotype of the individualistic, self-sufficient man, it is in large measure because the men who conform to it have been imprisoned by this outdated construct, every bit as much as women have.

In any case, thank you for your fulsome and really thoughtful response!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 hours ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

As for the rest. I am a cat. That is my RL picture.

I have always been very interested in the social lives of cats. Mine leads an inscrutably self-sufficient existence, punctuated with sudden and extreme episodes of neediness.

Please feel free to elaborate on why this might be so.

[KanryDrago]

28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Menstruation has, in an enormous variety of ways, been used to "other" women for millennia: it has been used to suggest that women are alien, that they are literally "unclean," that they are prone to emotionalism and a breakdown of reason, and, of course, that they are being punished for The Fall. There is a very clear reason why it is often called "The Curse." And there is an equally clear reason why menstruation has become a common theme and motif in feminist art. Women are trying to re-appropriate, and re-value a simple biological function that "marks" us as women, but that, more importantly, has been used as a tool of power, control, and oppression.

 

This right here is all that is wrong with our society. Not the statement itself but this general type of statement frankly.

Historically x has been used to oppress y therefore nowadays no one can say x.

Frankly I don't care. If I am not using x to oppress y the fact you get angsty about it is not my issue. Now I am not saying we shouldn't be aware of it however what I am saying is that if I have good reason to mention x then I will mention it and I do not concede that its "history" should be allowed usage as a tool to shut down discussion of x. In short look at why I am talking about x and judge me on that not the fact that some idiots in a prior time used it to urinate in your cornflakes

Perhaps why I didnt take offence at the op's statement whereas some of the males here did

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Frankly I don't care. If I am not using x to oppress y the fact you get angsty about it is not my issue. Now I am not saying we shouldn't be aware of it however what I am saying is that if I have good reason to mention x then I will mention it and I do not concede that its "history" should be allowed usage as a tool to shut down discussion of x. In short look at why I am talking about x and judge me on that not the fact that some idiots in a prior time used it to urinate in your cornflakes 

I don't think that the issue is "mentioning" it. It's about the language that you use, and the implications of that language.

Menstruation and PMS are real things. And it can have an impact on our emotional state, our physical comfort, and so forth, although this varies pretty widely from woman to woman. So, it's not a forbidden topic, as such. And if it is impacting on my mood, I should be honest and self-aware enough to acknowledge and account for that in my interactions with you.

Where it becomes problematic is when it is implicitly or even explicitly used to gaslight women, or disempower them. "Don't talk to her now, she's on the rag" might be a good example of that. YOU can't possibly know how my cycle is impacting on my mood, and if you're using it to deny me agency, or to dismiss what I think or have to say as "irrational," then you are are using it as a means of establishing your supremacy and control.

(I use "you" here generically, btw: I don't mean you, Kanry, in particular.)

[KanryDrago]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't think that the issue is "mentioning" it. It's about the language that you use, and the implications of that language.

Menstruation and PMS are real things. And it can have an impact on our emotional state, our physical comfort, and so forth, although this varies pretty widely from woman to woman. So, it's not a forbidden topic, as such. And if it is impacting on my mood, I should be honest and self-aware enough to acknowledge and account for that in my interactions with you.

Where it becomes problematic is when it is implicitly or even explicitly used to gaslight women, or disempower them. "Don't talk to her now, she's on the rag" might be a good example of that. YOU can't possibly know how my cycle is impacting on my mood, and if you're using it to deny me agency, or to dismiss what I think or have to say as "irrational," then you are are using it as a means of establishing your supremacy and control.

(I use "you" here generically, btw: I don't mean you, Kanry, in particular.)

Hmm well I have an sl sister who does get emotional at that time of the month as she is the first to admit and to use it as a reason for herself behaving as she does. Am I disempowering her by warning my sl daughters to be a bit cautious around her? I think not myself and will continue to do so. On the other hand I know plenty of women who you would only know are in the middle of a period if they happen to mention it.

 

This is exactly what I mean though. In the context of my sl sister I have every reason to mention it. In the wider context of girls in general yes it would be oppression. Too many would jump on the first and shout me down because some have used it to oppress

Edited December 1, 2018 by KanryDrago

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

as she is the first to admit and to use it as a reason for herself behaving as she does

Well, this is pretty key, no?

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Am I disempowering her by warning my sl daughters to be a bit cautious around her?

And no, that's not disempowering her. Disempowering her is using it as an excuse to disregard her input, or denigrate her in a way that does reduce her power.

I am not particularly affected by PMS myself, generally. But there are occasions when I am, and you'd be right to be careful around me.

BUT there are lots of other times and circumstances when it is equally dangerous to f**k with me -- if I haven't had enough sleep, or enough coffee, or I haven't eaten in a long while, or I have had a lousy day at work, or a fight with my partner, etc., etc., etc. Some of those might impact your mood too, and others might not: it varies from individual to individual.

It's the fact that we, as a culture, set off menstruation as though it were a "special case" that is the problem. It's just one of a huge variety of reasons why one may be in a bad mood, most of which can affect anyone. Treating it as somehow different turns it into a lever that can be applied against women, as women.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, this is pretty key, no?

And no, that's not disempowering her. Disempowering her is using it as an excuse to disregard her input, or denigrate her in a way that does reduce her power.

I am not particularly affected by PMS myself, generally. But there are occasions when I am, and you'd be right to be careful around me.

BUT there are lots of other times and circumstances when it is equally dangerous to f**k with me -- if I haven't had enough sleep, or enough coffee, or I haven't eaten in a long while, or I have had a lousy day at work, or a fight with my partner, etc., etc., etc. Some of those might impact your mood too, and others might not: it varies from individual to individual.

It's the fact that we, as a culture, set off menstruation as though it were a "special case" that is the problem. It's just one of a huge variety of reasons why one may be in a bad mood, most of which can affect anyone. Treating it as somehow different turns it into a lever that can be applied against women, as women.

If I may offer an alternate take here and this is not in anyway denying that some men have used menstruation as you say. It is also true that some women have done their bit to perpetuate the myth by using pms as a scapegoat at times. That is not to say everytime its an excuse but I certainly have had experience of girls blaming something on pms only to discover they werent even in that part of their menstrual cycle at the time.

[Donna Underall]

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

If I may offer an alternate take here and this is not in anyway denying that some men have used menstruation as you say. It is also true that some women have done their bit to perpetuate the myth by using pms as a scapegoat at times. That is not to say everytime its an excuse but I certainly have had experience of girls blaming something on pms only to discover they werent even in that part of their menstrual cycle at the time.

How in the world did you "discover" that?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

If I may offer an alternate take here and this is not in anyway denying that some men have used menstruation as you say. It is also true that some women have done their bit to perpetuate the myth by using pms as a scapegoat at times. That is not to say everytime its an excuse but I certainly have had experience of girls blaming something on pms only to discover they werent even in that part of their menstrual cycle at the time.

Absolutely. It would be absurd of me to try to deny it. I'll go further and suggest that some women use the fact that PMS seems so "mysterious" to some men to get away with all sorts of ridiculous things.

In my case, it's Nice biscuits. When I am PMS, I absolutely need Nice biscuits, or I'll die right there and then, and take anyone around me down with me.

Usually this works.

I do like an occasional Nice biscuit.

😀

Edited December 1, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Donna Underall said:

How in the world did you "discover" that?

erm when you live with a girl and share a bed...it becomes obvious when your hands travel to certain areas they are not shall we say using anything to stem the flow

[Donna Underall]

7 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

erm when you live with a girl and share a bed...it becomes obvious when your hands travel to certain areas they are not shall we say using anything to stem the flow

OMG  That's all on you! 

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Donna Underall said:

OMG  That's all on you! 

well thats the point it would have been on me if they were being honest but as they weren't....

[Sassy Kenin]

Maybe, we should also consider the Shocking Truth about 'Male-Pattern Baldness' that's exploded across the grid. 😏

[Luna Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

Maybe, we should also consider the Shocking Truth about 'Male-Pattern Baldness' that's exploded across the grid. 😏

I want to discuss male menopause...

[Klytyna]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I want to discuss male menopause...

Ahhhh... The Male Men-O-pause...

That's where the men pause and say "Oh!" when you explain that you wont have sex with them because you're a lesbian... Right?  

Usually about 30 seconds, and then they offer to "cure" you...