Men Not Liking Men: The Shocking Truth about Male-Pattern Loneliness in SL!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

39 minutes ago, Storm Clarence said:

Hello Scylla.  

The construct you present is flawed at its most basic level.  

In SL, as in real life there are two types of males (regardless of what facebook box you check): the alpha male, and everyone else.  

The alpha male.  Other men want to hang with them and women want to go out with them (regardless of what SL box you check).  

The alpha male has many friends: male and female, strong and weak, green and blue - and he is loyal to each.
In today’s climate the alpha male faces different challenges, but he is a leader and he is successful in what he is and does.  He will always stay true to his friends (male and female) and they know this of him.  

To this end, I can read from your OP that you just don’t get this - and you probably never will.  It's OK as you are not a male, however I can only request that you cease trying to effeminize the male ‘figure’.

Hi Storm. Nice to see that you are still out and about!

The particular culture model to which you certainly seem to be pointing -- the world of Alpha males, and Betas, of "cucks" and incels, of Stacys, Beckys, and Chads -- is not merely highly reductive but also, of course, the very paradigm of contemporary "toxic masculinity," except turned in and upon itself. It's also one that has become associated with acts of extreme mass violence -- including a horrifying incident in the city in which I live.

Although this is in some ways consistent with views I know you've expressed before, I am surprised, to be honest, to see you falling back on such apparently absurdly crude stereotypes. You're smarter than this. Am I wrong? Is this not the sort of model to which you are pointing? Please tell me I am.

As for "effeminizing men," you give me waaaaaaay too much credit. Do you really think that I, or any other woman, working individually or collectively, have enough influence to do this? I'm not even sure, actually, what "effeminizing" might mean: it assumes a sort of stable definition of "feminine" (or "effeminate") that I don't think exists.

What I, and others, would like to do is spark conversations -- actual discussions, with information and views exchanged -- about what is inconsistent or damaging about our constructions of gender. When we do that, we might be in a position to determine, as a culture, better ways of thinking about "male," "female," and those outside of the binary, that actually liberate people to be who they want to be, and not merely what society would compel them to be.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra
Missing words

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

I think the reason my friend list skews towards gay men is because I tend to hang out most in places aimed at gay men, so that's the category of people I meet the most. Almost all of the women on my friendslist are people I've met through the Virtual Ability community in SL.

Thanks, Matty!

This totally makes sense to me. And I suppose one important difference between how we -- whatever our gender -- socialize in SL is that pretty much everything we do here is in some sense or another "voluntary." Our social circles might generally be broader in RL for the simple reason that, at work and elsewhere, we are compelled to work alongside people who belong to other subcultures? I've already noted that I think my own friends list is skewed somewhat because a fair proportion is made up of (mostly) women I've come to know through my feminist groups and activities in SL.

4 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

What I don't tend to do is IM people on my friends list and have long conversations with them (except for one friend in particular). I think that is fairly typical of men in general, especially ones of my generation (age 40+). We talk and gather together when there's a specific reason for it, but rarely for the sole purpose of "just connecting".  I think this is mostly true in RL as well.

I guess this is the part that I don't understand. I'm not "judging" it, by any means, and I can't with any real confidence say that it is gendered behaviour either: I'm sure that there are a great many women in SL who operate socially along the same lines. But it's certainly very different from my own experience.

It's also a useful reminder that it's not really adequate to talk in vague terms about "friends." There must be an enormously diverse range of things that "friendship" means to us, as individuals or within groups. A simple comparison of quantitative data regarding the gender breakdown on our friends list can't begin to capture that.

[Sassy Kenin]

35 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Hi Storm. Nice to see that you are still out and about!

The particular culture model to which you certainly seem to be pointing -- the world of Alpha males, and Betas, of "cucks" and incels, of Stacys, Beckys, and Chads -- is not merely highly reductive but also, of course, the very paradigm of contemporary "toxic masculinity," except turned in and upon itself. It's also one that has become associated with acts of extreme mass violence -- including a horrifying incident in the city in which I live.

Although this is in some ways consistent with views I know you've expressed before, I am surprised, to be honest, to see you falling back on such apparently absurdly crude stereotypes. You're smarter than this. Am I wrong? Is this not the sort of model to which you are pointing? Please tell me I am.

As for "effeminizing men," you give me waaaaaaay too much credit. Do you really think that I, or any other woman, working individually or collectively, have enough influence to do this? I'm not even sure, actually, what "effeminizing" might mean: it assumes a sort of stable definition of "feminine" (or "effeminate") that I don't think exists.

What I, and others, would like to do is spark conversations -- actual discussions, with information and views exchanged -- about what is inconsistent or damaging about our constructions of gender. When we do that, we might be in a position to determine, as a culture, better ways of thinking about "male," "female," and those outside of the binary, that actually liberate people to be who they want to be, and not merely what society would compel them to be.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Shansi Kenin

[Selene Gregoire]

4 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

What I don't tend to do is IM people on my friends list and have long conversations with them (except for one friend in particular). I think that is fairly typical of men in general, especially ones of my generation (age 40+). We talk and gather together when there's a specific reason for it, but rarely for the sole purpose of "just connecting".

That just blew the hell out of my main reason for ever having logged back in. Conversations don't need to be long (overly winded), just decent and reasonably intelligent.

On the other hand, I have had one man, whom I have known most of my life, tell me he was scared of my intelligence.

[LittleMe Jewell]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

5 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

What I don't tend to do is IM people on my friends list and have long conversations with them (except for one friend in particular). I think that is fairly typical of men in general, especially ones of my generation (age 40+). We talk and gather together when there's a specific reason for it, but rarely for the sole purpose of "just connecting".  I think this is mostly true in RL as well.

 I guess this is the part that I don't understand. I'm not "judging" it, by any means, and I can't with any real confidence say that it is gendered behaviour either: I'm sure that there are a great many women in SL who operate socially along the same lines. But it's certainly very different from my own experience.

I'm with Matty on that - and it holds true for me in both RL and SL.  I hate phone calls at home that are just to chit chat and I have a hard time with IMs in SL sometimes.  Part of it is that I've never felt comfortable with general chit chat and part of it is that I really just don't understand the purpose of it.

I was told, long ago, that my social and work tendencies are more male than female - referring to the way men (at least in the US) are brought up regarding expression of emotions and competing at work/school.  I wasn't raised to hide emotion as my brother was and I also don't "feel male" in the sense that some do when they talk about trans issues.  I just seem to have a few sides of me that are far from the "typical" female.  I personally tend to think that my views/actions are related to some of my childhood traumas and are just my way of protecting myself emotionally.

Edited December 2, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell
Corrected Matty's name

[Selene Gregoire]

@Shansi Kenin Please, share with us what you found amusing about my post? Sincere question. I have the feeling your answer is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

12 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That just blew the hell out of my main reason for ever having logged back in. Conversations don't need to be long (overly winded), just decent and reasonably intelligent.

On the other hand, I have had one man, whom I have known most of my life, tell me he was scared of my intelligence.

   I've had guys tell me I talk too much and use too many big words.

[Sassy Kenin]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

@Shansi Kenin Please, share with us what you found amusing about my post?

Maybe.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I hate phone calls at home that are just to chit chat and I have a hard time with IMs in SL sometimes.  Part of it is that I've never felt comfortable with general chit chat and part of it is that I really just don't understand the purpose of it.

Actually, I entirely get the "hating phone calls" thing. I was initially horrified by the advent of cell phones because the idea of actually carrying something around with me that permitted anyone to call me at any time just seemed awful.

But I do love chit chat, idle or otherwise, either in person, or in text. I dislike voice in SL for a lot of reasons (and I've had some rather weird and uncomfortable experiences with it which I can't and won't go into here), but one of those is that I don't much like "voice" in RL either!

17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I just seem to have a few sides of me that are far from the "typical" female.

I suppose that can be bad, if it's the result of anxiety for instance, or good, in the sense that it is a liberation from the constraints of socially constructed definitions of gendered behaviour? Ultimately, if you're comfortable with it, that's probably all that really matters?

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

 I've had guys tell me I talk too much and use too many big words.

Stop emasculating these poor souls! It's not like they have dictionaries on their computer desks . . . or via the internet . . .

[Madelaine McMasters]

13 minutes ago, JJack Montreal said:

I'm just loyal to my team.

And I appreciate that, ever so very much.

Keep on truckin'.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

29 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

 

 

 

LOL no.

[JJack Montreal]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

And I appreciate that, ever so very much.

Keep on truckin'.

Ty keep trucking too

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Stop emasculating these poor souls! It's not like they have dictionaries on their computer desks . . . or via the internet . . .

   It might help, except for my tendency to make up words. Like... Lexicorrhea.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   It might help, except for my tendency to make up words. Like... Lexicorrhea.

That's just evil.

Cool and funny!

But evil.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, JJack Montreal said:

5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

And I appreciate that, ever so very much.

Keep on truckin'.

Ty keep trucking too

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Shansi Kenin said:

while yes Beta is the nice guy who will always finish last!

Shansi I think this is a myth (that nice guys finish last). While some women prefer an alpha male, many others don't. Case in point, my ex-husband that I mentioned earlier in the thread. He's always had women chasing after him. He's emotionally available, intelligent, sensitive, adoringly nerdy, cute (looks like a shorter Robert Plant, or did when he was younter with his long, curly hair). Makes more money in the PC tech world in one month than I probably make in a year. I fell in love with him when our families vacationed in the mountains, and saw him picking up trash as he hiked along the path...lol...a budding activist even at such a young age.

[Donna Underall]

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Stop emasculating these poor souls! It's not like they have dictionaries on their computer desks . . . or via the internet . . .

Poor babies.  I wish I knew how to help their widdle bum rash.

[Jagix Linden]

Here's a reminder, especially in such a sensitive topic, to keep posts respectful. Personal attacks are never permitted.

Remember:

"Only you can prevent forum fires." -Smokey the Jagix

Edited December 2, 2018 by Jagix Linden

[Scylla Rhiadra]

16 minutes ago, Donna Underall said:

Poor babies.  I wish I knew how to help their widdle bum rash.

I have been trying to recall if there has ever been an overt case of a man complaining to me that I use too many "big words," and I honestly can't come up with an instance. Maybe I don't use enough big words? Maybe I've repressed the memory?

In any case, the world, virtual and physical, is in my experience full of articulate and intelligent men who value women who are the same. If my use of big words helps men self-select whether or not they are interested in me, then it's all to the good: I'm not likely to be much interested in men who can't use them, and I don't want to know men who prefer that I not use them.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra
Because sentences NEED prepositions and conjunctions, even more than they need big words

[Scylla Rhiadra]

28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Shansi I think this is a myth (that nice guys finish last). While some women prefer an alpha male, many others don't. Case in point, my ex-husband that I mentioned earlier in the thread. He's always had women chasing after him. He's emotionally available, intelligent, sensitive, adoringly nerdy, cute (looks like a shorter Robert Plant, or did when he was younter with his long, curly hair). Makes more money in the PC tech world in one month than I probably make in a year. I fell in love with him when our families vacationed in the mountains, and saw him picking up trash as he hiked along the path...lol...a budding activist even at such a young age.

Luna, he sounds pretty perfect. 🙂

[Madelaine McMasters]

20 minutes ago, Jagix Linden said:

"Only you can prevent forum fires." -Smokey the Jagix

...sets you on fire.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...sets you on fire.

Pretty sure immolating the mods is against forum rules.

[Sassy Kenin]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Shansi I think this is a myth (that nice guys finish last). While some women prefer an alpha male, many others don't. Case in point, my ex-husband that I mentioned earlier in the thread. He's always had women chasing after him. He's emotionally available, intelligent, sensitive, adoringly nerdy, cute (looks like a shorter Robert Plant, or did when he was younter with his long, curly hair). Makes more money in the PC tech world in one month than I probably make in a year. I fell in love with him when our families vacationed in the mountains, and saw him picking up trash as he hiked along the path...lol...a budding activist even at such a young age.

I agree Luna, but it is a generational thing on top of a huge cultural shift, you're husband sounds like a gentleman.. they are a dying breed not likely to be replaced take me back a decade when so much was going on here that few cared about what was happening in real life.... those were the days!

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Shansi Kenin

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

Seems more and more of these thinly veiled threads pop up everyday, we all know what the real reason is

Please elaborate?