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Men Not Liking Men: The Shocking Truth about Male-Pattern Loneliness in SL!


Scylla Rhiadra
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Ok, so, yes. That was a bit click-baity.

I don't actually have access to the "truth" about why men are more "lonely" in SL, or why they don't socialize with each other. Nor do I know that the "truth" about that apparent phenomenon is "shocking," or even if it is "the truth."

But it's something of a cliché with, I suspect, more than a hint of truth to it, that men don't socialize with or befriend other men in-world. Anecdotally, this is something I've been told at one time or another by probably most of my male acquaintances in SL: their friends, they have told me, are nearly all women. (Two of my male friends have said this to me literally within the last three days.)

This is not, I suspect, how it is with most women (although maybe I'm wrong?😞 I think most of us have a much great number of same-sex friendships. Speaking personally, probably two thirds to three quarters of my friends list is comprised of women.

More curiously, though, the situation in SL for men doesn't reflect the usual pattern of male friendships in RL. The prevalence of "male bonding" in RL -- at the local pub or bar, in the gym, on the squash courts, basball court, or ice rink, and at the weekly poker game -- is so marked that we have developed a popular term --"bromance" -- to refer to it. At a more academic level, the late Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick has termed it "homosociality," defined as a preference in non-sexual relationships for others of one's own gender.

Women can be homosocial too, of course. My sense is that the characteristic pattern of women's relationships in SL is quite homosocial, and in that regard most often mirrors reasonably closely RL, with (maybe) a slightly larger male component.

But apparently this is not true of men . . .

Is this so? I'm sure that many or most men do have some male friends, but is it true that this is much more uncommon in SL than in RL?

And if so, why????

Curious (female) minds want to know!

EDITED TO ADD:  I've not changed any of the original wording from the OP, above, but I have highlighted a few statements to make it clear that I am not here to assert that men don't associate with men, but rather to test that cliché. The closest I come to assertion is suggesting that it has "more than a hint of truth to it"; otherwise, I thought my language made it clear that I was very open to, and indeed particularly interested in, challenges to that cliché.

Two potentially complicating factors have appeared in some of the responses below that I also want to address.

  • The first relates to virtual representation of gender in SL. I deliberately did not raise this issue because, so far as I'm concerned, if you represent as female in SL you are female here: I strongly believe that individuals have the absolute right to determine their own identity.
     
  • The second relates to sexual preference. Again, I sort of deliberately avoided raising this because it is surely a potentially complicating factor whether one is straight, gay, bi, asexual, or whatever. If your friends list consists exclusively or even entirely of people you like to have sex with, that's going to impact on the gender balance, but I don't think many people limit their acquaintance in quite that way.
Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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tldr; version : Why do guys not socialise or befriend other guys in SL as often as you think they would. And why do they seem to have a greater number of opposite sex friendships. And what is the reason for all this.

 

I can't say I have noticed this myself. In fact I notice the complete opposite. All of the males I know have lots of male friends and socialise with them on a frequent regular basis in SL, on Discord etc etc. Most of the males I know have one common theme that they bond over online and thats gaming. That goes for their female friends too. A lot of us in the communities we hang out in are gamers ourselves and have made male friends due to that. But, I wouldn't go as far as saying that males only really associate with females and barely with each other because I simply haven't noticed that to be the case in any of the communities I hang out in. Whether Combat, Anime, Hangouts, Gothic, Medieval or whatever. In my view and from what I notice its fairly even across the board at times. The only time I really do notice guys specifically hanging around with females more often is when they have either developed a deep and meaningful (non romantic) relationship with one or two OR....they after the "fun times".......or they are just flat out lonely for female company in general due to one or more factors that may link into their current situation in RL....or they are gay (Not saying all gay people are like this btw). In fact, I would go as far as saying that SL has helped break a lot of the (perceived) boundaries between males and females and helped them to find a more common ground and an understanding of the their similarities instead of the whole "Men are from mars, women are from Venus" condescending BS you see happening in RL. But to say that guys are lonely and don't really befriend or associate with other guys.....I would say thats incorrect. From my own perspective anyway. The males I know have lots of male friends and socialise with them on a daily basis and befriend more in to their group all the time. 

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9 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

100% of my FL is male. *shrugs*

I just looked, mine is 60/40 in favour of male avatars. If we are talking of friends and ignoring business contacts. 

Pretty much like rl for me too.  As a season ticket holder for the greatest football team in the world  (that's proper football not the egg ball run and carry it version)  I grew up with mostly male friends and just 2 close female friends.   I also added 3 more amazing creations to the male rl population myself and proud of that fact. :) 

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15 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

tldr; version : Why do guys not socialise or befriend other guys in SL as often as you think they would. And why do they seem to have a greater number of opposite sex friendships. And what is the reason for all this.

 

I can't say I have noticed this myself. In fact I notice the complete opposite. All of the males I know have lots of male friends and socialise with them on a frequent regular basis in SL, on Discord etc etc. Most of the males I know have one common theme that they bond over online and thats gaming. That goes for their female friends too. A lot of us in the communities we hang out in are gamers ourselves and have made male friends due to that. But, I wouldn't go as far as saying that males only really associate with females and barely with each other because I simply haven't noticed that to be the case in any of the communities I hang out in. Whether Combat, Anime, Hangouts, Gothic, Medieval or whatever. In my view and from what I notice its fairly even across the board at times. The only time I really do notice guys specifically hanging around with females more often is when they have either developed a deep and meaningful (non romantic) relationship with one or two OR....they after the "fun times".......or they are just flat out lonely for female company in general due to one or more factors that may link into their current situation in RL....or they are gay (Not saying all gay people are like this btw). In fact, I would go as far as saying that SL has helped break a lot of the (perceived) boundaries between males and females and helped them to find a more common ground and an understanding of the their similarities instead of the whole "Men are from mars, women are from Venus" condescending BS you see happening in RL. But to say that guys are lonely and don't really befriend or associate with other guys.....I would say thats incorrect. From my own perspective anyway. The males I know have lots of male friends and socialise with them on a daily basis and befriend more in to their group all the time. 

First, thanks for the succinct summary of my over-wordy OP!

So, from where you stand, this is simply an inaccurate impression?

One of the things that you do here which is important -- and which I maybe should have been more careful to do myself -- is qualify your answer by noting that this is your own perception or experience. The problem with broad generalizations like "all men this" or "all women that" is not merely that it erases the individual instances that deviate from that, but also that it doesn't acknowledge the different communities and cultures that in fact make up that larger category. My experience -- derived obviously second-hand from my male friends -- is different from yours: both are probably, within the contexts of the bubbles within which we both live, correct.

The second thing you point to that I find really interesting is the particular culture of "gaming." I'm not a gamer; I'm pretty sure most of my male friends are not, and the two I recently spoke to are certainly not. But I have no problems believing that gamers -- a culture that, despite some major inroads made by women, is still certainly perceived as dominated by males -- represents a very different attitude towards gendered friendships.

And I agree entirely that SL is actually helping to break down gendered stereotypes. In fact, a 7-year-old thread that I started and that was recently (inadvertently) resurrected in the Relationships forum made that exact argument.

Thanks for the insights! I've learned stuff already!!

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20 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

100% of my FL is male. *shrugs*

Wow. You literally have no female friends????

I'm going to guess that that's a little unusual, but hey -- maybe not? What do I know?

I'm curious as to why? (And I'm not being judgy about it: your friends are the people you like to associate with, and only you can determine who those are, whatever their gender.)

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The problem with broad generalizations like "all men this" or "all women that" is not merely that it erases the individual instances that deviate from that, but also that it doesn't acknowledge the different communities and cultures that in fact make up that larger category.

Nods, correct.

And the following is a HUGE generalisation Scylla.

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

men don't socialize with or befriend other men in-world.

It's also false.

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4 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

I just looked, mine is 60/40 in favour of male avatars. If we are talking of friends and ignoring business contacts. 

Pretty much like rl for me too.  As a season ticket holder for the greatest football team in the world  (that's proper football not the egg ball run and carry it version)  I grew up with mostly male friends and just 2 close female friends.   I also added 3 more amazing creations to the male rl population myself and proud of that fact. :) 

Actually, now that you mention it, although I have some very good and close male friends here, I probably have a higher proportion of male friends in RL than in SL.

My own perception of the reason for that (just a theory) is that intimate associations -- friendships -- most often begin, or at least migrate to, IM rather than local chat. And, for some reason, IMs seem to have a sort of sexual connotation to them, at least when exchanged between potential matches for partners.

I like men, a lot, and I value them as friends. You're completely justified, I think, of being proud of your contribution to their number. 🙂

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4 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

And the following is a HUGE generalisation Scylla.

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

men don't socialize with or befriend other men in-world.

It's also false.

You may very well be correct. That's one of the reasons I've asked the question!

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

although I have some very good and close male friends here, I probably have a higher proportion of male friends in RL than in SL.

Consider that in real life the balance between the two main genders is about 50/50 or at most 51/49 in favour of the distaff. In SL this number is vastly weighted in one direction. There are so many female avatars for every male avatar.

This might explain why you have a differeing proportion between the two worlds. Simply, there are less men here, so the number on your FL is lower.

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@Scylla Rhiadra

Your discussion with Callum is misleading, because he isn't a typical male. He's gay, and his FL is tailored by that.

I agree with your observations from my point of view. In RL, I prefer the company of women, but my main friends are male. I doubt that that is untypical. In SL my FL is tailored to my preferences; i.e. females. It's an inner sexual preference even though there's nothing sexual about the relationships.

That's my opinion, fwiw. I won't be discussing what I've written.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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I’ve seen many not explicitly declaring friendship unless absolutely necessary—and even then, couched in overt displays of “only cos it’s more practical that way, not that I care if you say ‘no’, I’m cool either way, dude, ya know...” .

Reckon it’s a male thing, insofar as those cliches still stand... [shrugs]

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My experiences of guys here sort of lines up with Scyllas OP. Maybe its the type of guys who find me... (I don't usually go hunting).

Most of my friends are female avis and generally speaking are more fun, and much better at IM chat........which is why I'm here. But I'll dance with anybody, because I enjoy the experience.

As I've said before, I have quite a shallow SL life, but boy is it fun!

Edited by BelindaN
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One presumes we are discussing avatar gender here.  It is generally assumed that the real persons behind many female avatars in Second Life are males and a smaller but significant number of male avatars are played by real females. 

Many people run alts of both genders.  So an interesting comparison would be the relative loneliness of male avatars played by real life males compared to that of female avatars that are also played by real life males.

Edited by Burper Tilling
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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Scylla Rhiadra

Your discussion with Callum is misleading, because he isn't a typical male. He's gay, and his FL is tailored by that.

That is such stereotyping horse crap. Not all gay people prefer the company of females or are more attracted towards females or vice versa. Not all gay people are camp and effeminate and gravitate solely towards women. Not all gay guys are macho and tailor their friendships towards men. Gay people are as varied in their preferences and interests as straight people are. You don't come out as being gay one day and suddenly its "OMG LIKE THAT LIKE TOTES AWESOME GIRLS LESSSSS GOOOO SHOPPPINNGGGG!!!!". Im sure Callum is as much a typical male as any other male, I mean how do you even define being "typically male". I know gay people who are fairly macho and masculine and prefer the company, in a non sexual way, of guys and others who are super camp and effeminate and prefer the company of women.

Edited by chibiusa Ling
Missed a part of Phil response and tailored my message differently
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43 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

That is such stereotyping horse crap. Not all gay people prefer the company of females or are more attracted towards females. Not all gay people are camp and effeminate and gravitate solely towards women. Gay people are as varied in their preferences and interests as straight people are. You don't come out as being gay one day and suddenly its "OMG LIKE THAT LIKE TOTES AWESOME GIRLS LESSSSS GOOOO SHOPPPINNGGGG!!!!". Im sure Callum is as much a typical male as any other male, I mean how do you even define being "typically male". I know gay people who are fairly macho and masculine and prefer the company, in a non sexual way, of guys and others who are super camp and effeminate and prefer the company of women. Assume less learn more.

Did you read anything that was actually posted? Phil said that his friends list was weighted towards women because of his sexual preferences, and that the reverse would be true for Callum; it's not really unfair to assume that an openly gay man is sexually attracted to men rather than women. Callum even said that his friends list is 100% male, why are you ranting about gay men preferring the company of women? You're just raving at a straw man.

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7 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Did you read anything that was actually posted? Phil said that his friends list was weighted towards women because of his sexual preferences, and that the reverse would be true for Callum; it's not really unfair to assume that an openly gay man is sexually attracted to men rather than women. Callum even said that his friends list is 100% male, why are you ranting about gay men preferring the company of women? You're just raving at a straw man.

Did you even read my response. I never ranted about gay men preferring the company of women. I never assumed that a openly gay man is or is not sexually attracted to men rather than women or vice versa or however you want to put it. I never once stated it like that at all. Don't put words in my mouth please. Attracted doesn't just mean sexual it can be meant in terms of friendships also. 

Edited by chibiusa Ling
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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

As is the original post, sorry Scylla!

When dealing with demographic-scale trends, stereotyping is often neither wrong nor incorrect. A stereotype can be true as an overall trend and yet there can still be vast numbers of people that do not fit that trend, and that's okay.

eg:

Most men have more female friends on their friends list than male

vs

You're a man so you must have more female friends on their friends list than male

The first is okay, and almost certainly true. The second is where stereotyping becomes dangerous, misleading and potentially harmful.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
your -> their
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1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

When dealing with demographic-scale trends, stereotyping is often neither wrong nor incorrect. A stereotype can be true as an overall trend and yet there can still be vast numbers of people that do not fit that trend, and that's okay.

eg:

Most men have more female friends on your friends list than male

vs

You're a man so you must have more female friends on your friends list than male

The first is okay, and almost certainly true. The second is where stereotyping becomes dangerous, misleading and potentially harmful.

--Pre note : This is my own personal opinion--

I feel that unless you have solid verified data you should never state something to be a true fact. Where you write "A stereotype can be true as an overall trend", I feel that is incorrect also. I do agree with you that Sterotyping can become dangerous, misleading and potentially harmful though which is why we should never do it. Il give you an example, lets take the topic you seems to want to throw at me a second ago (And I quote you : "why are you ranting about gay men preferring the company of women?"...which I wasn't but okay). But lets take that topic and use it as a stereotype. Its easy enough to throw that stereotype out there and assume that to be the case, especially given how the media, tv shows, movies and that one gay friend you have in RL who happens to fit that stereotype would lead you to believe. I mean do you ever see the average gay Joe Bloggs being portrayed on a news coverage of a gay pride march? or do they more often focus on the hyper male dressed as a pink bunny throwing glittered unicorn poop because it makes for better viewing?. We have to ask ourselves the question...is that really the case?. No....not at all. Gay men or women are as varied in personality, interest and type as any other person alive on this earth today. To make those assumptions and throw those stereotypes is not only ridiculous but also unfairly categorising a group of people as a whole into one tiny little box.

We should never really assume anything of anyone because we never truly know the who, what, when and where of that specific person and it leads us to make all kinds of judgements about them before they have even had a chance to show you who they actually are.

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1 hour ago, Burper Tilling said:

Many people run alts of both genders.  So an interesting comparison would be the relative loneliness of male avatars played by real life males compared to that of female avatars that are also played by real life males.

My male alt's never been inworld as much as my main or my building alt (both female) but he gets approached far more often. One of the differences is that those who approach him (mainly gay men, trans-women seeking men, and women) accept him as a friend and friend only. I would guess that a number of them are interested in sex but I don't know because it never comes up. That acceptance rarely happens with my female avs. The usual scenario there is man approaches, he brings up sex, I politely decline, he wants to be friends anyway, then defriends me a week later when he realises it really isn't going to happen. There have been just three exceptions to this in nine years.

So this "loneliness of male avatars" doesn't fit with my very limited experience. It was always easier for my male alt to make male friends than for my female main and building alt. In contrast, women never approach my female avs unless they're new to being women (using SL to explore transition).

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30 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Did you even read my response. I never ranted about gay men preferring the company of women. I never assumed that a openly gay man is or is not sexually attracted to men rather than women or vice versa or however you want to put it. I never once stated it like that at all. Don't put words in my mouth please. Attracted doesn't just mean sexual it can be meant in terms of friendships also. 

You ranted about the Phil using the stereotype of gay men preferring the company of women, even though both Phil's and Callum's posts would have indicated the exact opposite.

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9 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Did you even read my response. I never ranted about gay men preferring the company of women. I never assumed that a openly gay man is or is not sexually attracted to men rather than women or vice versa or however you want to put it. I never once stated it like that at all. Don't put words in my mouth please. Attracted doesn't just mean sexual it can be meant in terms of friendships also. 

 

1 hour ago, chibiusa Ling said:

That is such stereotyping horse crap. Not all gay people prefer the company of females or are more attracted towards females. Not all gay people are camp and effeminate and gravitate solely towards women. Gay people are as varied in their preferences and interests as straight people are. You don't come out as being gay one day and suddenly its "OMG LIKE THAT LIKE TOTES AWESOME GIRLS LESSSSS GOOOO SHOPPPINNGGGG!!!!". Im sure Callum is as much a typical male as any other male, I mean how do you even define being "typically male". I know gay people who are fairly macho and masculine and prefer the company, in a non sexual way, of guys and others who are super camp and effeminate and prefer the company of women. Assume less learn more.

I mean this reads to me like you're responding to the assumption that 'Callum is gay therefore he must hang out with women'... when the opposite was stated. If that's not how you meant it, then fair enough - but that's how I read your post. Forum posts aren't always the easiest way to communicate :)

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