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Retention rate explained

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7 minutes ago, Haselden said:

And all the spots are "Underrated" that are fun don't even get shown in the destinations list.

You are not again trying to promote gor sims, are you? Those will not improve the retention rate, they do not cater to normal people's taste, there is a good reason the misogynic paradise RP sims rarely make it into destinations ;)

 

Edited by Fionalein
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8 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 Who do you think submits destinations?

Just click on the "Destinations" category then look at "Whats hot now" I tend to check em out here and there.

However, I got no clue how thats popular. It's just like the guy in the youtube video, its just abunch of people "Standing" around.

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29 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You are not again trying to promote gor sims, are you? Those will not improve the retention rate, they do not cater to normal people's taste, there is a good reason the misogynic paradise RP sims rarely make it into destinations ;)

 

Well, only thing worth while I'd say other then Gor Evolve, is the Wild west combat system/rp. However, even the Wild west sims are underrated.

Edit: Just showing this as a example...

PLVwING.jpg

Edited by Haselden
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Oh, this conversation again? We should string 'em all together, from 2009 forward, into a giant thread of 600+ replies.

And actually, that's sort of what is disturbing about this: that we still have to have this conversation, because the new user experience still sucks, the official viewer is still crappy, and the learning curve for the basic mechanics of the platform is still too high. Surely after 9 or 10 years, this should all have been improved?

The other thing that I find kind of disturbing is the endless reiteration (also a constant refrain over the past 10 years) of the pseudo-elitist notion that SL attracts only the very best, most intelligent, and deeply creative people (for proof, just look at us, right? Right?), and that those who don't get into it, or don't have the patience to wade through a really pretty awful initial experience, are clearly idiots whom we don't want here anyway. Because it would dilute the brilliance that is us, and might even provoke change of something that is obviously exactly as it should be, because, after all, we like it, don't we?

The circularity of this argument is breathtaking: Second Life is obviously great because of the high calibre of people here, who are obviously excellent judges of quality because they "get" and like SL.

I am not a gamer (the only games I've ever played are Portal, because Chel, and Undertale, because Undertale), and I absolutely do not want SL remade and tailored for the particular taste and needs of those who are . . . but it's a little odd to always be saying "SL is an open sandbox that can be anything you make it, and can appeal to any taste," except when it doesn't, in which case your taste is obviously corrupt and stupid.

I don't see this as an either-or proposition: we tolerate a pretty wide range of tastes here already, and I don't see why more traditional gamers cannot also be accommodated in ways that don't impinge upon the experience of others.

And I think leadership here really needs to come from LL: it's not the job of users to attract and retain new people, nor are we in a position to make the fundamental changes that are required.

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1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

Heaven forbid some of those that found Second Life "too hard to learn" attempt to play an old school MUD/MUCK or similar ...

"Hmmph. Kids these days! Back in my time, we had to walk five miles through pixelated snow just to see another user. We built our virtual worlds out of old shoe boxes and the stumps of chalk we rummaged from the bins at school!

Oh, and hey, GET OFF OF MY LAWN!!"

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

ss reiteration (also a constant refrain over the past 10 years) of the pseudo-elitist notion that SL attracts only the very best, most intelligent, and deeply creative people (for proof, just look at us, right? Right?), and that those who don't get into it, or don't have the patience to wade through a really pretty awful initial experience, are clearly idiots whom we don't want here anyway. Because it would dilute the brilliance that is us, and might even provoke change of something that is obviously exactly as it should be, because, after all, we like it, don't we?

I have read a lot of discussion on what it is that we have in common, those of us who fall in love and stay, but never has anyone accused us of high intelligence. 

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Well, @Scylla Rhiadra, I take the liberty to decide which of the newbies I encounter I help and which not... this guy clearly would have made it on my "Not help" list within minutes...

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Well, @Scylla Rhiadra, I take the liberty to decide which of the newbies I encounter I help and which not... this guy clearly would have made it on my "Not help" list within minutes...

Oh, of course. That is entirely your right.

But we're not really talking about one individual here; the issue is far broader than that.

And as for screening for idiots -- to judge from my in-world experiences, we do a pretty poor job of that too. (vide the thread on "worst lines".)

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's amazing any new user is patient enough to suffer the current avatar customization process: generations of largely incompatible methods and obsolete controls.

This.

As a returning oldster attempting to master mesh avatars for the first time, I have found this difficult enough (Maitreya? Catwa? Slink? What????); I can't imagine how awful it must be for someone who either has no background in this sort of thing, or is used to a simple one-stop customization process.

I really really value the fact that content in SL is user-generated and all, but this is an area where a little more centralized guidance from LL might have been a good thing. At the very least, something like the Omega appliers system should have been in place before creators started producing their own proprietary systems.

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2 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

What happened, LL never thought mesh would be used for clothing, much less bodies.

And that is of course why user-generated content is so important here: the impetus for innovation comes from "us."

But also why a bit more coordination (and maybe imagination) from LL would be worthwhile.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

What happened, LL never thought mesh would be used for clothing, much less bodies.

An oversight on their part ... It finished killing off a few stores that barely managed to weather the introduction of sculpts.

I am still trying to find decent replacements for some of my oldest Hybrid avatar components. Feline? Easy enough. Same with Foxes. Bunnies? A bit of digging. Dogs? Mice? Heh ... Right ....

Easiest to replace thus far? Fae/Elven/Sidhe types. That includes Drow/Dark Elves.

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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"SL is an open sandbox that can be anything you make it, and can appeal to any taste,"

Try "SL is a creative platform." instead. Most will usually get the idea and if it appeals to them, they will hang around long enough to start the learning process. If they have more of an attention span than a flea does, they'll stick around for the long haul. If not, then SL just isn't their cuppa and never will be because SL isn't for the elitist or hardcore gamers.

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There's no question that barriers exist preventing first-time users from really having a chance to properly experience Second Life, and as some have mentioned it seems there are more barriers all the time. I don't know how to fix that (I agree that avatar customization methods being simplified would be a massive start) but I don't think that users can do much more than they already are doing. LL has to do that, if it gets done at all.

That video, however, didn't impress me in the slightest and it certainly wasn't "painful to watch". I gave it a bit over two minutes and bailed; it was just some clown goofing for his audience. Whoopee. The only thing about it that I thought was indicative of a problem with SL rather than a problem with the videographer was that introductory comment:

"Today we venture forth into one of the most bizarre dating sims on the free internet, Second Life!"

If he got the idea that SL is first and foremost a 'dating sim', that might just be idiocy on his part (evidence suggests that possibility). I think it's at least as likely that it can be chalked up to the way Linden Lab advertises SL.

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2 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Another autistic "gamer" with autistic mannerisms, autistic mindset, autistic video editing catering to an autistic fanbase and autistic culture.

OFF TOPIC RANT ON COMMENT:

Shhh, there's real autists who love SL. Please rephrase your words with moron/moronic (which you probably won't be allowed to call anyone on the Forums due to TOS) but please stop using the word reserved for a non-neurotypical mindset as an insult.

Think about it ;) you wouldn't call anyone gay as an insult (despite it being done so by others in the past), would you? Same principle applies here ...

Edited by Fionalein
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59 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

An oversight on their part ... It finished killing off a few stores that barely managed to weather the introduction of sculpts.

I am still trying to find decent replacements for some of my oldest Hybrid avatar components. Feline? Easy enough. Same with Foxes. Bunnies? A bit of digging. Dogs? Mice? Heh ... Right ....

Easiest to replace thus far? Fae/Elven/Sidhe types. That includes Drow/Dark Elves.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/JOMO/168/88/24

Enjoy.

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i think one thing is LL should stop with the mesh starter avatars. Nothing else on the market is made for those, and even the very first new pants will look like they ...well lets say, have to change diapers.

Start should be easier, this is one aspect.
Upgrade to a mesh avi should be done in a few steps, logical, and not too fast. Most of us here had 8 yrs or more to get where we are. It's impossible for newbies to make that progress in a day. I know... i want it and i want it now mentality is against that, but there's no other way.

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2 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

 autistic 

autistic

autistic 

autistic

autistic

autistic

autistic

have more?....

just for info.. there are many amongt the sl players

here's one

 

thanks a lot

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13 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Note my forum avatar. I am well acquainted with JOMO.

There really is a difference between a Hybrid and a full Anthropomorphic type.

Kitsune (Fox-people)? "Fairy Fox" avatar that is somewhat outdated. Same for many of their Hybrids. Oh yes and said Hybrids are a "full package" type: Very few of what is on offer can be considered components. Said Fairy Fox? The ears and tail are more than a bit big for a "normal" sized shape.

And that is just one example ....

Edited by Solar Legion

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Well, I'd have to agree with Fiona that the clown who made this video wasn't doing himself any favors.  He'd have made my "Don't help this jerk" list pretty quick, too.

And this is where I think I have to disagree with Scylla a bit.  I don't think we are (most of us) a bunch of elitist snobs who think that we are the only ones good enough for SL.  But there's an element of truth to her observation, too...we ARE different from the kind of spastic, flighty jerk who made that video.  We live at a slower pace.  We talk more than we charge around.  We stop and smell the roses, not just run frantically from place to place.

I am constantly frustrated by the "gamer" noobs we get at Caledon Oxbridge University.  COU's campus is a self-paced tutorial that consists of six buildings, each chock full of signs that explain SL, one logical step at a time.  But these newcomers arrive at the entrance, and then RUN through all the buildings.  Or they fly.  It's like they think they'll get points if they get through the maze quicker than anyone else.  They zoom past the live helpers who don't even have time to say "welcome to Oxbridge" before they're out of chat range.  Some of the more Facebook-trained ones throw Friends offers in their wake, without even a "hello."

Qie's got a telling point too...SL has always had a learning curve.  But explaining the mishmash that avatar appearance has become gives me, as a newbie helper, the screaming meemies.  As Belinda said, navigating that maze really calls for a mentor.  (SL has ALWAYS been easier to get into if you have a helping hand; I probably would not have stayed either, except that someone said hi, and explained a few basics to me...and that was back in 2007.)

We aren't "elitists", but it's also clear that SL is not for everyone.

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Oh I remember now what I decided that most long term residents have in common: we like to learn.

Short timers tend to hit a snag and instead of learning, look around for someone to blame, like LL or a creator.

 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

the new user experience still sucks, the official viewer is still crappy, and the learning curve for the basic mechanics of the platform is still too high.

I disagree on the first and third point.  But the second point: Yes, the official viewer is crappy. Has been since Viewer 2.x. 😠

But when I created an alt last year to test the newbie learning place, I was impressed. Not over- nor underwhelmed, but in my opinion, LL did a good job in tutoring the basic functions of the viewer, like moving, camming, and so on. However, when I  started with my first avatar in 2008, the Learning sim was more fun - you went through a forest, entered a castle, learned to make a snapshot on the way, and so on. And it took me LESS than half an hour to "get" the viewer back then. Maybe that was because I didn't have any 3D game experience before at all, I don't know.

And about the learning curve for the basic mechanics being too high? Who the heck are you kidding? Okay, with the current official viewer, it is a bit complex and sometimes not very clear - and if you have inventory, chat, and build menu open, your interface is way more cluttered by all these dark layers than in the interface of Cool VL Viewer, for example - but it's nothing that can't be learned in a short time with a bit patience and the will to learn it.

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5 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

...if you have inventory, chat, and build menu open, your interface is way more cluttered by all these dark layers ...

I typically have those, plus People, and Local Chat is broken off separate from the rest of Conversations.  Now, when getting dressed at least, throw in HUDs for shoes, dress, body, head, nails, various appliers and relays...and pretty soon you can't even see yourself!  And I have a LOT of screen real estate.  It would be impossible on a laptop.

Hey, creators!  MAKE SMALLER HUDs, willya!?

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10 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I typically have those, plus People, and Local Chat is broken off separate from the rest of Conversations.  Now, when getting dressed at least, throw in HUDs for shoes, dress, body, head, nails, various appliers and relays...and pretty soon you can't even see yourself!  And I have a LOT of screen real estate.  It would be impossible on a laptop.

Hey, creators!  MAKE SMALLER HUDs, willya!?

If they did, then those of us with less than 20/20 vision would be crying to get them enlarged so we can see them. Some of them are so small I have to almost put my nose on the screen to bring it into focus, with prescription glasses that are only 6 months old.

Sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone. :D

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