Reasons not to start a "Happy Thanksgiving" thread

[Love Zhaoying]

51 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

You act like I believe what I wrote.

Does that mean you were just trolling?

[Alyona Su]

The simple fact of the matter is that if one takes offense at anything said to them without ill-intent it is a personal problem for them. 

30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

When you said the above I was just hoping you might make an exception to your rule....for Native Americans.

No, I will not make an exception and neither will I ever apologize for anything I say with good-intention, other than to say "A shame that you feel that way" - then think "You should probably see a professional about it". Taking offense at anything not intended as such is a personal issue and any and all of us.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Bree Giffen]

2 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Considering the fact that a lot of stores start their Black Friday at 6PM on Thursday that really isn't quite right either.

How about, "Happy Thanksbuying and a merry Black Friday Eve!" 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

54 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

You act like I believe what I wrote.

Does that mean you were just trolling?

I'm not quite sure what trolling is...it seems people define this differently.

My interpretation of his initial message....he was basically saying "anyone who does not have the same beliefs as I do about Thanksgiving is stupid".

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The simple fact of the matter is that if one takes offense at anything said to them without ill-intent it is a personal problem for them. 

32 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

When you said the above I was just hoping you might make an exception to your rule....for Native Americans.

No, I will not make an exception and neither will I ever apologize for anything I say with good-intention, other than to say "A shame that you feel that way" - then think "You should probably see a professional about it". Taking offense at anything not intended as such is a personal issue and any and all of us.

What if something you said with good-intent hurts someone though? Don't their feelings count too?

We often say things to others without ill-intent, yet at the same time we're lacking awareness of what the other person has gone through that might cause them to feel offended.

In such cases, even though I don't always judge myself as 'at fault', I simply say something like "oh I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend, and I wasn't aware you felt this way about the issue".    This diffuses the conflict and shows you're paying attention to their feelings too. It's really not about who is right or wrong.

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The simple fact of the matter is that if one takes offense at anything said to them without ill-intent it is a personal problem for them. 

No, I will not make an exception and neither will I ever apologize for anything I say with good-intention, other than to say "A shame that you feel that way" - then think "You should probably see a professional about it". Taking offense at anything not intended as such is a personal issue and any and all of us.

You sound offended.

[Lindal Kidd]

16 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

A Thanksgiving bedtime story:

https://www.manataka.org/page269.html

"Following an especially successful raid against the Pequot in what is now  Stamford, Connecticut, the churches announced a second day of "thanksgiving" to celebrate victory over the heathen savages.  During the feasting, the hacked off heads of Natives were kicked through the streets like soccer balls.  Even the friendly Wampanoag did not escape the madness. Their chief was beheaded, and his head impaled on a pole in Plymouth, Massachusetts -- where it remained on display for 24 years.   

The killings became more and more frenzied, with days of thanksgiving feasts being held after each successful massacre. George Washington finally suggested that only one day of Thanksgiving per year be set aside instead of celebrating each and every massacre. Later Abraham Lincoln decreed Thanksgiving Day to be a legal national holiday during the Civil War -- on the same day he ordered troops to march against the starving Sioux in Minnesota."

Everyone interprets history to suit themselves.

No, I am not being insensitive.  I don't dispute that these horrendous events occurred.  However, they are not the genesis of our American Thanksgiving holiday, which is the thrust of your statement.  The church was accustomed to celebrating "days of thanksgiving" for any number of reasons.  These days were not locked to a particular date, but were declared from the pulpit in response to particular events.  For example, the early Virginia settlers in Jamestown declared a day of thanksgiving to celebrate surviving their voyage and reaching the New World.  From this, we see that "thanksgiving feasts" were not particularly tied to "successful massacres", although some probably were.  After all, the natives were feared and hated by the colonists.  They viewed them as a threat, and with some amount of reason; the violence was not all one way.

The "first Thanksgiving" that we were taught about in school, though, was also an actual historical event, in which both settlers and natives participated in friendship.  So it was not all killing and massacres, and not all days of thanksgiving were about victory in war.

President Lincoln's declaration of Thanksgiving as a permanent federal holiday in 1863 clearly is not about victory in war, even though we were in the middle of the Civil War.  It praises God, and reminds us that the things for which we should truly be thankful do not come from man.

For myself, I'm thankful that my Native American acquaintances aren't hunting me, and I'm not hunting them.  Let's have some turkey to celebrate that. 

[Luna Bliss]

20 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Everyone interprets history to suit themselves.

I love what Thanksgiving has morphed into through the years...a day to be thankful & appreciate life. I'm sitting here eating some leftover cranberries over yogurt, and feeling the glow from connecting with family members who enjoyed a marvelous holiday.
This does not mean I'm not aware of how Thanksgiving originated, nor does it negate my sensitivity toward those Native Americans who don't choose to celebrate this holiday that originated in their slaughter.

In other words...both perspectives can be here. I often see people who feel they must 'take a side' and can't hold both perspectives in mind at the same time...either they can't celebrate knowing where the holiday originated, or they celebrate without taking into account the perspective of Natives.

My mission in posting the history lesson was aimed at Phorumities, who has definitely taken the side of "F anybody who doesn't believe as I do, and this all happened in the past and has no relevance for today (he has stated the latter belief in many threads here, usually pertaining to blacks)".

[Talligurl]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

Lets not forget Christmas is a rather thin veneer over a far older pagan celebration.

 

Considering that according to the Bible, Chrstians are just converted pagans, it is kind of appropriate.

[Alyona Su]

56 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You sound offended.

Bahaha!  I see what you did there, good play!

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

What if something you said with good-intent hurts someone though? Don't their feelings count too?

Context is important. Calling me "yellow skin" because I'm Asian is an intent to hurt my feelings, so my feeling should count (I say f*kit, I embrace the term) - however, if you wish me "Happy Kwanzaa" and I get offended, why should my feeling matter to you?

So my short answer to this question is: NO.

[Selene Gregoire]

I find every post Luna has made in this thread to be highly offensive. Presuming to speak for those she knows nothing about. Again. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I find every post Luna has made in this thread to be highly offensive. Presuming to speak for those she knows nothing about. Again. 

My son-in-law is a full-blooded Native American watching me type, so I guess we'll have to decide which of you is right..?

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

What if something you said with good-intent hurts someone though? Don't their feelings count too?

Context is important. Calling me "yellow skin" because I'm Asian is an intent to hurt my feelings, so my feeling should count (I say f*kit, I embrace the term) - however, if you wish me "Happy Kwanzaa" and I get offended, why should my feeling matter to you?

So my short answer to this question is: NO.

We're not talking about those of Asian or African descent and their holidays though, we're talking about a holiday (Thanksgiving) that is based on the slaughtering/conquering of Native Americans. Hence, if they respectfully request that we not wish them Happy Thanksgiving we should honor that request....because of their history and what the holiday means for them.

[Alyona Su]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

a holiday (Thanksgiving) that is based on the slaughtering/conquering of Native Americans

There is your misconception: The official declared holiday is not based on that. There have been many"thanksgiving" events. To single out the one single event that you feel makes your case is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst. ~shrugs~

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Alyona Su said:

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

a holiday (Thanksgiving) that is based on the slaughtering/conquering of Native Americans

There is your misconception: The official declared holiday is not based on that. There have been many"thanksgiving" events. To single out the one single event that you feel makes your case is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst. ~shrugs~

How bizarre...to accuse me of arguing in a disingenuous or malicious way.

I'm speaking to the ORIGIN of the holiday...not how people morphed it through the decades. This is offensive to SOME Native Americans ...they do not wish to participate in it or be wished a 'happy thanksgiving' because of it.

[Alyona Su]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

How bizarre...to accuse me of arguing in a disingenuous or malicious way.

I'm speaking to the ORIGIN of the holiday...not how people morphed it through the decades. This is offensive to SOME Native Americans ...they do not wish to participate in it or be wished a 'happy thanksgiving' because of it.

The origin of the Holiday in the United States was Abraham Lincoln. Oh, a couple hundred years after the event you describe. Surely he was thinking of *that specific* event when he declared the holiday. I digress; I have no intention of changing your mind on it, and neither will you change mine. So we will agree to disagree. Edification notwithstanding.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

BTW...my son-in-law has no qualms about anyone wishing him a Happy Thanksgiving, and he partakes in all of the celebration.

However, he sympathizes with the Natives he knows who take issue with it, and he is upset about people who can't accept those who don't want to participate.

There really is room for both perspectives....nobody has to take sides.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Considering the fact that a lot of stores start thier Black Friday at 6PM on Thuraday that really isn't quite right either.

I received a group notice of a store starting their Black Friday sale on Wed.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

When you said the above I was just hoping you might make an exception to your rule....for Native Americans.

I would not expect all Natives to be offended, but I would certainly approach a Happy Thanksgiving greeting with caution, asking if it's okay to wish them a Happy Thanksgiving.

If I ever make an assumption about someone being Native American, I would be accused of being racist, just like if I make an assumption about anyone's race.

If someone makes it known ahead of time that they don't want such good wishes, I will not say it directly to them.  Otherwise, I'm wishing anyone I come across a "Happy Thanksgiving".  And even though I am not at all religious, I was raised saying "Merry Christmas" and I will continue to say it to everyone I come across.  There is nothing intentionally offensive in that, but I am not a mind reader and will not go around making assumptions about people's preferences. 

If someone says they are offended by what I said, I will simply tell them that offense was not my intent.  I still will not blindly apologize for my statements simply because they chose to be offended by them.  I cannot control how others decide to perceive things and thus their perceptions are not my fault -- thus there is nothing for me to apologize for.  

We have all gotten way to quick at tossing out apologies simply because someone else decided to take offense at something said or done, no matter the original intent -- and most of that behavior is simply folks that can't seem to live without creating and/or being part of "drama".

 

[Luna Bliss]

Anyway, going back to my family time with a few movies.

All I can say is that if you accidentally wish a 'happy thanksgiving' to a Native American who is offended, please stuff your ego a bit and consider their perspective, and say "I'm sorry...didn't mean to offend you".

And that came directly from my son-in-law. Well, not the 'ego' word. He said you need to 'get over yourself' if you think your reality trumps all.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If I ever make an assumption about someone being Native American, I would be accused of being racist, just like if I make an assumption about anyone's race.

Why even bring this point up? Of course it's wise not to assume anybody is anything.

However with this issue of being sensitive to others when wishing them a 'happy thanksgiving, I'm mainly referring to  people in one's personal life they've known for awhile..not strangers...so one would most likely know if they were Native.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Does that mean you were just trolling?

I don't see it as trolling in the typical sense.  More like a sarcastic post of all the reasons Phorumities sees as ridiculous reasons for not wishing folks a Happy Thanksgiving - the final words pretty much tells us that.  

It is not totally uncommon for discussions to be started by giving a sarcastic take on the opposing view.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

My interpretation of his initial message....he was basically saying "anyone who does not have the same beliefs as I do about Thanksgiving is stupid"

You pretty much always interpret anything that Phorumities says in some sort of negative way -- totally because of you bias towards him.  I'm pretty sure he could post something totally in agreement with your belief system and you'd still find something wrong with it.

 

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If someone says they are offended by what I said, I will simply tell them that offense was not my intent.  I still will not blindly apologize for my statements simply because they chose to be offended by them.  I cannot control how others decide to perceive things and thus their perceptions are not my fault -- thus there is nothing for me to apologize for.

Well I would feel sorry if I said 'happy thanksgiving' to someone and it brought up a bunch of horror for them. I don't want them to feel that. I realize all the issues with our country and how that leaves some Natives feeling unheard and like nobody respects them. So no, don't ever want to remind them again.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Oh good lord.

Phorumities begins a thread that more or less dares someone to be "offended."

And Luna conveniently obliges.

Do the two of you plan this stuff in advance?

[Selene Gregoire]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 post something totally in agreement with your belief system and you'd still find something wrong with it.

 

You are 100% correct.