The Old Lie: "Dulce et Decorum Est"

[Blush Bravin]

15 hours ago, Phorumities said:

So its ok for others to make off topic comments, but not for me to reply?

See, you are doing it again, and yet you'll blame me when the thread is locked.

Your reply could simply be, "off-topic." But that's not what you are doing. You are compounding the problem by escalating the issue.

[Love Zhaoying]

Observation of Veteran’s Day in the U.S. was yesterday. We could just report the thread and request it be locked to prevent further off-topic discourse.

[Blush Bravin]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Observation of Veteran’s Day in the U.S. was yesterday. We could just report the thread and request it be locked to prevent further off-topic discourse.

That would be a shame. There's been some very thoughtful remembrances of what war is really like in the pages of this thread. To stay on topic and let the thread run it's course naturally would in and of itself show honor to those who fought.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[ellestones]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

On the other hand, my own great grandfather lied about his age to enlist, and ended up a career soldier, the only one in my family. I suspect he enjoyed the life, but for a man of his class -- the labouring poor -- it must have provided not merely security but also a certain amount of social prestige and recognition (he retired a regimental sergeant major). It was a good job. But how many other reasons must there be to join up?

yes

people have all kinds of reasons for joining the military. Sometimes it works out for them. Sometimes not. Like you say for young people from working families then can be for quite ordinary reasons. Like when display aptitude then can secure trade certifications, university qualifications, etc. Things that can be beyond young people without incurring large debt to obtain these as a civilian

like your grandfather lots of people also join up for the excitement, a way to see the world, etc. Assuming they do make it thru basic training. The tranches of basic training (being a professional military these days) does tend to knock the stars out of anyone's eyes. Cold hard reality has a way of settling people down. Or they realise it is not for them really afterall, leave and go do something else. Which is all good also

what other reasons might a person have for joining the military ? Lets look at Afghanistan. 17 years now and still counting

sometimes people ask what is the point of people continuing going to Afghanistan and dying. What is the military objective there ?

in laypersons terms then the objective is suppression of the enemy's ability to wage war anywhere other than where they are. Better to contain the enemy someplace else, rather than on your own territory where your own families are at risk. When don't take the fight to the enemy where they are then they will bring it you where you are, on their terms. As what happened in the USA on 9/11 for example

is all kinds of reasoning for why 9/11 eventuated, who did what to who, when why and what for. The reality is that 9/11 did happen and the military responded accordingly. And will continue to respond (fight them over there rather than here at home) until there is a diplomatic resolution

[BelindaN]

I watched the final half hour of "They shall not grow old" this morning. 

Utterly compelling but disturbing on a level I didn't expect. 

I had a relative who was conscripted at 18 and put ashore on the beaches in Normandy in 1944. So I have difficulty watching the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan. He survived the landings but was seriously injured a few days later. He recovered physically but apparently was never the same.

We never seem to learn from the past.

Edited November 13, 2018 by BelindaN
Spelling

[Phil Deakins]

53 minutes ago, BelindaN said:

We never seem to learn from the past.

That's always a problem - with nations and with individuals. We have to learn it for ourselves before we can accept it.

[Innula Zenovka]

There's a two-thousand-year old historical irony to the lines from Horace's Odes III.2.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori:
mors et fugacem persequitur virum
nec parcit inbellis iuventae
poplitibus timidove tergo

(It is sweet and fitting to die for the homeland:  and death pursues the man who flees, and neither does it spare the limbs and cowardly backs of unwarlike youths).

The irony is that the poet Horace had, as a young man, been one of the commanders in Brutus' and Cassius' armies at the Battle of Philippi (42 BC) during the civil wars that followed the assassination of Caesar.     

Brutus' and Cassius' armies were crushed at Philippi by those of Antony and Octavian (as then he was) and, rather than either dying in battle or falling on his sword in the Roman equivalent of seppuku, Horace fled back to Italy,  made his peace with Octavian and was given a civil service job. 

He later attracted the patronage of Maecenas,  and lived a long and prosperous life as a poet who quite frequently wrote adulatory poetry about Octavian (now the Emperor Augustus).

So the poet Horace's life and career rather give the lie to his poetry there.    

Edited November 13, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[ellestones]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

So the poet Horace's life and career rather give the lie to his poetry there.    

i agree with the sentiment behind your post

is always difficult for me when war is portrayed in heroic and noble terms. Is nothing noble or heroic about war

within a war zone people can do noble and heroic acts. Pretty much always a selfless act that puts themselves in danger while saving someone else from harm. People outside of wa rzones tho also do similar selfless acts everyday where they put themselves in harms way to save another person

so I don't see selfless acts in war as anything special really. With today's modern professional military, is just a job. Not a job like any other but still just a job. Go to the worksite, do the business, come home. The emphasis being on coming home. And if coming home means run, then run

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

So the poet Horace's life and career rather give the lie to his poetry there.

I quite like Horace's poetry, especially his satires (which I mostly read in translation), but yeah, he was a time-server and more than a bit of a kiss-ass.

Nicer than Juvenal, though.

[Selene Gregoire]

Can't speak of poetry and war without mentioning Rudyard Kipling and Gunga Din.

Quote

Gunga Din

BY RUDYARD KIPLING

You may talk o’ gin and beer   

When you’re quartered safe out ’ere,   

An’ you’re sent to penny-fights an’ Aldershot it;

But when it comes to slaughter   

You will do your work on water,

An’ you’ll lick the bloomin’ boots of ’im that’s got it.   

Now in Injia’s sunny clime,   

Where I used to spend my time   

A-servin’ of ’Er Majesty the Queen,   

Of all them blackfaced crew   

The finest man I knew

Was our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din,   

      He was ‘Din! Din! Din!

   ‘You limpin’ lump o’ brick-dust, Gunga Din!

      ‘Hi! Slippy hitherao

      ‘Water, get it! Panee lao,

   ‘You squidgy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din.’

 

The uniform ’e wore

Was nothin’ much before,

An’ rather less than ’arf o’ that be’ind,

For a piece o’ twisty rag   

An’ a goatskin water-bag

Was all the field-equipment ’e could find.

When the sweatin’ troop-train lay

In a sidin’ through the day,

Where the ’eat would make your bloomin’ eyebrows crawl,

We shouted ‘Harry By!’

Till our throats were bricky-dry,

Then we wopped ’im ’cause ’e couldn’t serve us all.

      It was ‘Din! Din! Din!

   ‘You ’eathen, where the mischief ’ave you been?   

      ‘You put some juldee in it

      ‘Or I’ll marrow you this minute

   ‘If you don’t fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!’

 

’E would dot an’ carry one

Till the longest day was done;

An’ ’e didn’t seem to know the use o’ fear.

If we charged or broke or cut,

You could bet your bloomin’ nut,

’E’d be waitin’ fifty paces right flank rear.   

With ’is mussick on ’is back,

’E would skip with our attack,

An’ watch us till the bugles made 'Retire,’   

An’ for all ’is dirty ’ide

’E was white, clear white, inside

When ’e went to tend the wounded under fire!   

      It was ‘Din! Din! Din!’

   With the bullets kickin’ dust-spots on the green.   

      When the cartridges ran out,

      You could hear the front-ranks shout,   

   ‘Hi! ammunition-mules an' Gunga Din!’

 

I shan’t forgit the night

When I dropped be’ind the fight

With a bullet where my belt-plate should ’a’ been.   

I was chokin’ mad with thirst,

An’ the man that spied me first

Was our good old grinnin’, gruntin’ Gunga Din.   

’E lifted up my ’ead,

An’ he plugged me where I bled,

An’ ’e guv me ’arf-a-pint o’ water green.

It was crawlin’ and it stunk,

But of all the drinks I’ve drunk,

I’m gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.

      It was 'Din! Din! Din!

   ‘’Ere’s a beggar with a bullet through ’is spleen;   

   ‘’E's chawin’ up the ground,

      ‘An’ ’e’s kickin’ all around:

   ‘For Gawd’s sake git the water, Gunga Din!’

 

’E carried me away

To where a dooli lay,

An’ a bullet come an’ drilled the beggar clean.   

’E put me safe inside,

An’ just before ’e died,

'I ’ope you liked your drink,’ sez Gunga Din.   

So I’ll meet ’im later on

At the place where ’e is gone—

Where it’s always double drill and no canteen.   

’E’ll be squattin’ on the coals

Givin’ drink to poor damned souls,

An’ I’ll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!   

      Yes, Din! Din! Din!

   You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!   

   Though I’ve belted you and flayed you,   

      By the livin’ Gawd that made you,

   You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

 

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Can't speak of poetry and war without mentioning Rudyard Kipling and Gunga Din. 

Imperialist Racism.

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Of all them blackfaced crew   

He not only admits to whipping the slave

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Though I’ve belted you and flayed you,  

The slave takes a bullet and dies.

 

I find it very curious that you would post this.

[Selene Gregoire]

46 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Imperialist Racism.

He not only admits to whipping the slave

The slave takes a bullet and dies.

 

I find it very curious that you would post this.

Racism is, among many things, convenient. It provides simplified, definite and ready-to-serve answers to complex and compounded questions. Racists, in turn, come from all walks of life; their motivation and the root causes behind their contemptible views of others may differ, but the outcome of these views is predictably the same – racial discrimination, social and political oppression, religious persecution and war.

[Innula Zenovka]

13 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

He not only admits to whipping the slave

There's absolutely no reason to suppose that Gunga Din, the bishti (water carrier), was a slave,  not least because slavery was abolished in India by the India Slavery Act 1843.   Kipling's Gunga Din was written in 1890.   

If you want to discuss Kipling's racism then fine, though, at least to my mind, Kipling's attitudes are a lot more complex than people sometimes think.   But please get the history right.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[BelindaN]

There's a melancholy song by Nerina Pallot which was influenced by the Iraq war, but resonates across time........

It makes me sad listening to this.............

Six million souls lost to thin air
Are wandering the earth again
Lives, not numbers

All these ghosts, sons of mothers
History is empty arms
It's just one thing after another
And slowly we follow behind our boys

One day I'll have a child of my own
How will I tell him, oh
This world, this world it is a good place?
How will I hide the fear from my face?

How do you sleep with all that you've done?
Sending somebody else's son to die
For things no one believes in
Saluting your own charade
As we line up in this heartless parade

Songwriters: Nerina Natasha Georgina Pallot

History Boys lyrics © BMG Rights Management US, LLC

[Selene Gregoire]

I've always felt this protest song from the 60s sums it all up quite nicely.

 

[MoiraKathleen]

33 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I've always felt this protest song from the 60s sums it all up quite nicely.

 

That is one of my favorite songs (and one of the few that I can actually play on my guitar and sing).

[Callum Meriman]

2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

There's absolutely no reason to suppose that Gunga Din, the bishti (water carrier), was a slave,  not least because slavery was abolished in India by the India Slavery Act 1843.   Kipling's Gunga Din was written in 1890.  

It's fiction. His age is not known. How long he was in service of the Englishman is unknown. When the fiction is set is not clear. Hollywood also portrayed him as a rather old slave. If you want to think the Englishman was flaying the skin of free men with a whip... you can, I choose not to.

Additionally, the Indian Indenture System was not terminated until 1917, slavery by another name.

The Hindu "water boy" in this poem was abused, belittled, and ultimately died for his Colonial overlords. This is a racist colonial poem that has little place in, and no bearing on a discussion about Armistice or Rememberance/Veterens day.

[ellestones]

@Callum Meriman

agree with your view that the poem is a work of fiction and as such then am also not sure what relevance it has in a remembrance of actual people

altho now that the poem is here then the story it tells is one of regret on the part of the fictional character relating the story

fictional stories can be quite powerful sometimes in helping us to better understand our own selves where when we hold actual views similar to the fictional character portrayed. Often most powerful In cases where when we are confronted with the harsh realities of the real world and the impact that our even more harsh views can have to make things worse than they already are. We can sometimes tend to shy away from reality and the opportunity for self-reflection is lost. Fiction can sometimes help us more readily in this, or at least helps up to begin thinking about it in the first instance

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

It's fiction. His age is not known. How long he was in service of the Englishman is unknown. When the fiction is set is not clear. Hollywood also portrayed him as a rather old slave. If you want to think the Englishman was flaying the skin of free men with a whip... you can, I choose not to.

Additionally, the Indian Indenture System was not terminated until 1917, slavery by another name.

As far as I am aware, the British East India Company Army never used slave labour, and the British Army didn't take over until the East India Company was wound up.      Quite possibly I'm mistaken, though, and you will be able to show me some evidence that suggests either the British East India Company Army or the British Army in India ever used slave labour for roles like water carrier.    I was always under the impression that such roles were taken by locally-recruited servants (who may well have been badly treated but certainly weren't slaves).

Furthermore,  again, as far as I am aware, the Indian  Indenture System was a form of debt bondage, whereby impoverished Indians signed up as indentured labourers (primarily in sugar plantations) overseas.   That was the whole point of it -- to replace enslaved labour in colonies where slavery had been abolished (and to undercut demands for higher wages from the now free but recently enslaved workforce).   Again, I am quite possibly wrong when I say that there's no evidence either the British Army in India or the East India Company Army ever used indentured labourers as water carriers or in any similar role, and if I am you'll doubtless be able to show me some evidence they did.   

Historial sidenote -- it was what he saw as the confusion in an opponent's mind between indentured labour and slavery that caused Churchill to coin the phrase "terminological inexactitude" -- see https://goo.gl/uqtnyQ (shortened url because the original is a beast).

I agree that Gunga Din may well not be the most appropriate of Kipling's poems to quote in this context -- Recessional (1893) might be better, since it's where "Lest we forget" comes from (it's also, of course, where the phrase "lesser breeds without the Law" comes from, though read in context it's pretty clearly aimed at other European colonial powers than the colonised).   But in the context of a discussion of remembrance, I do think it's important not to misrepresent historical facts.

Kipling, as it happens, was a very influential figure on Britian's post WW1 Imperial War Graves Commision and was responsible for composing most of the inscriptions on British memorials.   According to a letter in The Guardian of 25 November 2013,

Quote

Kipling's contributions to the War Graves Commission included the choices for headstones: "Their name liveth for evermore" on stones of remembrance, "Their glory shall not be blotted out" for those whose burial places had been destroyed, and "A soldier of the Great War known unto God" on graves for which a name could not be found. He also accompanied George V to the cemeteries and composed a speech for him that contained the powerful line: "There can be no more potent advocates for peace upon earth than this massed multitude of witnesses to the desolation of war."

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2013/nov/25/kiplings-epitaphs-bad-sex-willy-brandt

See also   http://www.enrs.eu/en/articles/1482-burdened-by-imperial-memory-rudyard-kipling-collective-memory-and-the-imperial-war-graves-commission for a detailed account on his role on the Commission.   

 

[Selene Gregoire]

Dang. I didn't mean to start WWIII in here. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

14 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

The Hindu "water boy" in this poem was abused, belittled, and ultimately died for his Colonial overlords. This is a racist colonial poem that has little place in, and no bearing on a discussion about Armistice or Rememberance/Veterens day.

And one of his Colonial overlords is saying that he was a "better man than I am," rather than maintaining that Gunga Din deserved how he was treated as most of the speaker's peers (British soldiers, mind you) and many of his readers would maintain. Context - it's a thing.

[Fionalein]

15 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

The Hindu "water boy" in this poem was abused, belittled, and ultimately died for his Colonial overlords. This is a racist colonial poem that has little place in, and no bearing on a discussion about Armistice or Rememberance/Veterens day.

According to the poem that fictional water bearer wore a uniform - thus was part of the army, if only in a position as little as water bearer. There were many civilians in the armies of old, many underage as well, stable hands, kitchen hands, personal waiters of high ranking officers... often recruited from the underpriviledged masses too, just like this fictional water bearer.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Fionalein

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And one of his Colonial overlords is saying that he was a "better man than I am," rather than maintaining that Gunga Din deserved how he was treated as most of the speaker's peers (British soldiers, mind you) and many of his readers would maintain. Context - it's a thing.

The context is that this is a terrible poem to hold up against the memories of those that died in WW1 and WW2 on both sides.

This includes, amongst many, one of my ancestors who was a private in the 3rd machine Gun company. He was killed at Polygon Wood, Ypres in Belgium on 20 September 1917, his second tour. In this picture taken on 26 February 1917 near Eaucourt l'Abbaye during the advance on the Somme. He is the one on the left.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Garnet Psaltery]

Oh for heaven's sake.  This is just what takes me away from the forum for days at a time.

[Love Zhaoying]

On 11/13/2018 at 10:52 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

Can't speak of poetry and war without mentioning Rudyard Kipling and Gunga Din.

Quote

Why?