The Old Lie: "Dulce et Decorum Est"

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

it is kind of ironic that you would post such an antiwar poem though... kind of like you are mocking anyone foolish enough to answer their nations call

I don't believe she's mocking anyone at all.

You can disapprove of war while at the same time honor those who were courageous enough to die for what they believed in.

[Luna Bliss]

     THE ESQUIMOS HAVE NO WORD FOR "WAR"

Trying to explain it to them
Leaves one feeling ridiculous and obscene
Their houses, like white bowls,
Sit on a prairie of ancient snowfalls
Caught beyond thaw or the swift changes
Of night and day.
They listen politely, and stride away

With spears and sleds and barking dogs
To hunt for food. The women wait
Chewing on skins or singing songs,
Knowing that they have hours to spend,
That the luck of the hunter is often late.

Later, by fires and boiling bones
In steaming kettles, they welcome me,
Far kin, pale brother,
To share what they have in a hungry time
In a difficult land. While I talk on
Of the southern kingdoms, cannon, armies,
Shifting alliances, airplanes, power,
They chew their bones, and smile at one another.

Mary Oliver

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

tell that to luna, she posted her propaganda picture, i was simply responding.

As I also liked your first post here -- and with which I agreed a great deal less.

And no one is "mocking" anyone's cause. Owen volunteered to serve, and was invalided out for some 6 months after suffering shell shock. He died willingly leading his troops on the front line: his is an utterly authentic voice.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

36 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

To put it simply, war is politics and vice versa.

Very true. But I very much want to focus on the human dimension here.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

it is kind of ironic that you would post such an antiwar poem though... kind of like you are mocking anyone foolish enough to answer their nations call

I want to explain why I love Owen's poem so much, beyond its protest against war.

First of all, it is an absolutely brilliant poem, technically speaking. Listen to Ecclestone's reading with your eyes shut, and hear the taut, jarring rhythms of the verse, and the explosive sounds of the words and alliteration. Listen to the concrete physical detail, and the nightmarish impact of the narrative and his images.

Secondly, this is a poem about real men, in a vividly real and terrifying situation. When McCrae's "dead" speak, it is as the disembodied, unindividuated voice of "The Cause." Owen shows us individuals, real men alongside whom he fought and suffered and died. We can identify and empathize with them. They could be us, or those we know. The poem is about the human dimension of war.

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Selene Gregoire]

52 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Very true. But I very much want to focus on the human dimension here.

I know you do. Unfortunately there are those who are determined not to. One in particular that never learns. As long as that one is allowed to post, they will derail a thread every time. That one has a long history of doing so on another forum. 

Good luck with keeping it on topic. I mean that sincerely.

[chibiusa Ling]

7 hours ago, Fionalein said:

There is no glory being sacrificed as a pawn in some game of dominance... if you want to make their deaths something other than meaningless start mourning them instead of glorifying their "sacrifice". Most had no choice. Do you even realize that most were conscripts and not willfully participating in "your" wars they died in?

Your ignorance makes kitty angry, folks!

We do mourn them. Part of the remembrance is to mourn but also to honour what their deaths meant for the rest of the world. Whilst I disagree with conscription and the way In which WW1 was conducted and how many people were repeatedly sent over the top to needlessly die, what the average soldier did back then still took all kinds of courage and bravery. Without them the world would be completely different to what it is today, we would have had a near entirely different history. Also, we don't just honour those who fought, we honour all of the people alive at that time who suffered as a result of that war. Friends joined up together for only one or none of them to return. Families were torn apart. Sons, brothers, fathers, uncles went, never to return home, or those that did were often horrible injured or maimed in some kind of way. It was a nightmare horror show for all involved and people suffered on all fronts whether in the trenches or back home. Glory is only one thing we attribute towards the remembrance of The Great War but its not meant to be a glorification of what happened back then per say its a glorification of what it must have took, under insurmountable odds, to do what those soldiers did, conscripted or not.

[ellestones]

am not sure that the outcome of WWI lead to the world being a better place. Given that it lead to WWII

the outcome of WWII did tho lead to a better world at least for some people in some areas of the world, while also not good for some people who were nominally on the winning side

I think war as a change agent for better is ineffective. It can be effective as a way to change regimes but for most people as indivduals, as humans, then diplomacy as a change agent, does much better for us

[Scylla Rhiadra]

52 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Also, we don't just honour those who fought, we honour all of the people alive at that time who suffered as a result of that war. Friends joined up together for only one or none of them to return. Families were torn apart. Sons, brothers, fathers, uncles went, never to return home, or those that did were often horrible injured or maimed in some kind of way. It was a nightmare horror show for all involved and people suffered on all fronts whether in the trenches or back home. 

Yes, this.

And no one, not even the most fervent soldier, deserved the nightmare that war inflicted on all of them.

 

 

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   I'd like to think one person trying to derail a thread can be like a penny on the tracks, ignored without difficulty and with but a little effort by those who prefer the wheels stay true.

[Lindal Kidd]

Scylla,

Bless you for your post, your feelings, and this thread.

I'm reminded of the film "Patton" with George C. Scott.  It shows vividly both the hell of war, and the heroism.  And then it focuses down and shows both, in one man, when Patton says, "God help me, I do love it so."

God bless all who serve and sacrifice for something greater than themselves.

[Innula Zenovka]

I always find the finale to the last Blackadder series strangely moving

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I always find the finale to the last Blackadder series strangely moving

Huh. Yes. I hadn't seen that before. Surprising, and the more affecting because of that.

The Great War seems destined, I think, to endure as one of history's great symbols of gut-wrenching and tragic futility. Years ago, I watched the movie Gallipoli. Once was enough: I don't think I could handle the ending again.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

 

Wow. Thank you.

It reminds me a lot of the episode in All Quiet on the Western Front when Paul confronts a French soldier in a shell crater and stabs him . . . only to be forced to witness with utter horror and remorse his victim's slow and excruciating death over many hours.

There must have been countless such moments.

[Skell Dagger]

For those in the UK who missed it last night, I would strongly urge you to watch They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer (BBC2 section) over the next 6 days while it's still up. Several moments in that programme will live with me to the end of my days. Stunning documentary and technical work that charts the journey of WWI 'Tommies' through the war, from enlisting to demob. Colourised and digitised original footage that has been edited to remove the jerkiness of the slow framerate, the voices of those who served (interviewed back in the 1960s), and their memories of both cameraderie and carnage. Small sections of some of those interviews have been posted in this thread already.

It will air on US television sometime in December. It is not easy to watch, as they shy away from nothing, but it shows the sharp end of the war: not the decisions around big tables, but the boys - some of them only 15 - on the front line.

I found it very hard to sleep last night after watching that, but I'm immensely glad that I did.

[BelindaN]

3 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

For those in the UK who missed it last night, I would strongly urge you to watch They Shall Not Grow Old on iPlayer (BBC2 section) over the next 6 days while it's still up. Several moments in that programme will live with me to the end of my days. Stunning documentary and technical work that charts the journey of WWI 'Tommies' through the war, from enlisting to demob. Colourised and digitised original footage that has been edited to remove the jerkiness of the slow framerate, the voices of those who served (interviewed back in the 1960s), and their memories of both cameraderie and carnage. Small sections of some of those interviews have been posted in this thread already.

It will air on US television sometime in December. It is not easy to watch, as they shy away from nothing, but it shows the sharp end of the war: not the decisions around big tables, but the boys - some of them only 15 - on the front line.

I found it very hard to sleep last night after watching that, but I'm immensely glad that I did.

We watched the first hour. I agree with Skell. It's amazing and humbling and very hard to watch. We'll see the remainder tonight. The colouring and digitisation is remarkable. The spectacle is awful. It left us stunned...............

[Love Zhaoying]

8 hours ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   I'd like to think one person trying to derail a thread can be like a penny on the tracks, ignored without difficulty and with but a little effort by those who prefer the wheels stay true.

Yep, when we put pennies on tracks they were flattened and the train moved on!

[Phorumities]

18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't believe she's mocking anyone at all.

You can disapprove of war while at the same time honor those who were courageous enough to die for what they believed in.

soooo what is your opinion on removing monuments honoring the men that fought for the Confederacy?

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

soooo what is your opinion on removing monuments honoring the men that fought for the Confederacy?

Here, they are moved to a place where they can be viewed “in context” with historical information. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

28 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

soooo what is your opinion on removing monuments honoring the men that fought for the Confederacy?

You're really kind of hellbent and determined to start a fire here, aren't you?

Please stop baiting Luna and Love. No one here has suggested restrictions on who gets memorialized. How they get memorialized, and the function of the statues that you mention, is quite another issue, and has nothing to do with what we've been discussing here.

In fact, it deserves its own thread: why don't you start one?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Pamela Galli]

Seriously, if they have to bring up contentious political issues, why always a derail?

Start your own thread and everyone who wants to argue with people operating from a different reality can do so,.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Fionalein]

I reported it - there is nothing more we can do...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

@Phorumities -- I want to be constructive about this.

If you really do want to contribute to this thread, why don't you search out some diary or journal entries (in text or video form) written by Confederate soldiers, and excerpt them here? See for instance the posts by Skell and Innula above. That would do much to humanize them, to give us some insight into who they were, as individuals.

It would make it much easier to mourn their loss if we knew more about them. That would be a contribution that is interesting, instructive, and entirely in keeping with the spirit of this thread.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

You mean they were trolling, and not just asking an honest question?

I has teh dumb!