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Wallace Wirefly

LogIn issues and SANSAR

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I find it interesting that there was recent moves made to SANSAR about going to STEAM and also exchange rates ($S to $US ) within SANSAR . I have a few questions about this.

One: Does SANSAR run on the same servers (platform) as Second Life?

Two: With so much emphasis being placed on this BIG move is this creating issues with that community as well as its creators?

https://modemworld.me/2018/11/02/2018-sansar-product-meetings-44-steam-with-audio/

Three : Just doing a quick search here about these recent changes especially this "buy out" of $S has this gotten under some peoples skin?

Four: If one reads through the notes in the above article notice:

" There are concerns that expanding Sansar’s user base through Steam could see a higher incidence of griefing / trolling "

One wonders how this all fits within Linden labs nice nutshell of a system.

Ok for now I have these to chew on but I do find it interesting that only recently (with in last several months) has Second Life platform been DDos so badly. Is there a correlation???

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13 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

One: Does SANSAR run on the same servers (platform) as Second Life?

No, Sansar runs on AWS.

13 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Two: With so much emphasis being placed on this BIG move is this creating issues with that community as well as its creators?

Who knows. You'd be better asking in their discord then on the forums of a completely different game.

14 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Three : Just doing a quick search here about these recent changes especially this "buy out" of $S has this gotten under some peoples skin?

See above. Most forumites likely want this white elephant to die so the Lab can invest money into SL again.

14 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

" There are concerns that expanding Sansar’s user base through Steam could see a higher incidence of griefing / trolling "

Well, derp. Just look at VR-Chat videos on youtube for an idea.

16 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Ok for now I have these to chew on but I do find it interesting that only recently (with in last several months) has Second Life platform been DDos so badly. Is there a correlation???

no.

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14 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

One: Does SANSAR run on the same servers (platform) as Second Life?

Thank the Dark Gods of the Grid for small mercies, no it doesn't.

14 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Two: With so much emphasis being placed on this BIG move is this creating issues with that community as well as its creators?

Who knows, who cares, go ask their community, if you can find all 15 of them online at the same time...

14 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Three : Just doing a quick search here about these recent changes especially this "buy out" of $S has this gotten under some peoples skin?

Only those people who were stupid enough to assume they would get RL Rich selling over priced tat to clueless noobs on Project Stupid's marketplace. The rest of us are just glad to see more nails in the coffin of that worthless white elephant money pit.

14 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Four: If one reads through the notes in the above article notice:

You can't "grief" people in Project Stupid, theres basically no interaction between people other than writhing faces of their horrible avatars, and screaming at each other in Voice-Spam, so basically, moving to steam will just be like your regular SL-Info-Hub's audio channel, without the griefing and with an extra quota of illiterate console peasants screaming at each other that calling them an ASS over the internet is a Federal Crime and that they are phoning the FBI to report each other...

14 hours ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

Ok for now I have these to chew on 

You might get more if you checked the "Project Stupid for SL Users" sub forum, further down the main page...

 

Edited by Klytyna

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If you seriously want answers to your questions, I suggest you join the Sansar Discord channel or at least read their forums. There are few here in SL who actually participate in Sansar, but yet feel the need to criticize it and make fun of it at every opportunity. Please judge for yourself and don't go by someone's biased and uninformed opinion of Sansar.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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As far as I can see the COMMUNITY is just fine. The folks currently in Sansar that DON'T create probably haven't noticed much as the changes (aside from more folks on the platform) don't and won't affect them much. Many to most of the talented active creators are standing on the sidelines (or working on their experiences without much show-and-tell).

 

There haven't been many "premium" additions to the store since the announcement, but plenty of new folks are apparently playing with clothes and their free Marvelous Designers download still. 

 

A good number of creators don't agree with these decisions AT THIS POINT IN TIME, but people are still chatting and laughing and helping each other on Discord and in PMs. 

As far as I can see the COMMUNITY is just fine.

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Ok I see this Topic has touched a nerve here. Was just wondering. I have no preference but I do wonder how money made off of Second life is invested. Much like this country I see the polarization happening. I imagine eventually, like this Tuesday, one will see which "camp" will win. It's a fight to the finish. ?? At least unemployment in programmers is down. ?

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49 minutes ago, Wallace Wirefly said:

... but I do wonder how money made off of Second life is invested

That's none of our business. How LL uses its money is entirely their business and nothing to do with the users.

I think that Sansar will be a failure, at least in the short term - up to 5 years or so. LL stated that they are going to produce the "next generation". That was years ago, but they didn't even try to do that. Instead, they skipped a generation (imo) and went straight to VR, and, also imo, it'll be quite some time before the world in general is ready for a mass VR product like Sansar. And when it is, Sansar is likely to be merely one of a number of choices. That's just my opinions though.

Even if LL stopped putting money into Sansar, and ploughed it all back into SL, I really don't think that they could do anything with/to SL that could cause it to take off again. SL peaked a long long time ago, and I don't see it getting up there again. They could do an SL2 maybe - a souped-up SL designed the way that users are known to prefer. Souped-up in terms of features and abilities, and designed somewhat different to the land model that's SL. Even now, LL is trying to shift the land model here, so they would have a very good idea how to design an SL2 to be much more user-desirable.

All these years since they first announced it, and I don't think they are even close to charging money for Sansar.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Sansar is owned and operated by Linden Lab, as is Second Life.

It is their choice as to where money coming in, is sent with regard to their product lines - like any software development studio.

That is the beginning and end of it.

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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I think that Sansar will be a failure, at least in the short term - up to 5 years or so.

Yes, considering the development speed so far, five more years seems likely.

 

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

LL stated that they are going to produce the "next generation". That was years ago, but they didn't even try to do that. Instead, they skipped a generation (imo)

No, they didn't. Apart from the VR, Sansar is five years behind the technology leaders today. It's not even today's generation and certainly not next.

 

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

And when it is, Sansar is likely to be merely one of a number of choices.

It already is.

 

59 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

It is their choice as to where money coming in, is sent with regard to their product lines - like any software development studio.

That is the beginning and end of it.

Not quite the end of it, there's one more thing to keep in mind: more money doesn't necessarily mean better work.

In 2014 LL diverted most of their development resources to Sansar, leaving just a skeleton crew to handle SL. The result was a drastic improvement in the quality of SL development. Better management, better focus, smarter solutions - those factors more than compensated for less money and manpower.

Edited by ChinRey
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3 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

No, they didn't.

Yes they did! (say that they are going to produce the next generation). They said it right here in the forum - in a previous version, of course - and that's the exact phrase that they used - "the next generation".

Unless you meant that they didn't skip a generation.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Just now, Phil Deakins said:

Yes they did! (say that they are going to produce the next generation). They said it right here in the forum - in a previous version, of course - and that's the exact phrase that they used = "the next generation".

Let me clarify what I meant then: Yes, they said they would but they failed to do it. ;)

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I know they failed to do it. I said they didn't even try but instead skipped a generation. Which mean, of course, that I'm totally confused now :(

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Sorry ChinRey, that is the beginning and end of it.

Who they left behind and the work that crew has done has nothing at all to do with where their money goes. They could have left Second Life with the B Team .... and didn't.

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5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

They could have left Second Life with the B Team .... and didn't.

And for that we should be grateful. :)

And we should probably be grateful the C team didn't leave for Sansar too - they went on to a non-LL project with the initials HF.

Edited by ChinRey

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29 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I know they failed to do it. I said they didn't even try but instead skipped a generation. Which mean, of course, that I'm totally confused now :(

I don't know what happened but it seems to me they failed to take into account that others were developing too.

In 2013 Unigine released their Valley Benchmark, demonstrating the true power of parametric object generation and placement. In 2014 UE 4 with its superior take on PBR was released. The sum of those two alone is a true revolution in dynamic 3D rendering, allowing for faster creation of far richer and more detailed scenes with far less resources.

Then a lot of things happened to API, Apple decided to focus entirely on their own Metal, Microsoft seems to want to keep DirectX to themselves and Vulkan set a brand new performance standard for everybody else to aspire to.

And that's just the start. The Sansar devlopers seem to have missed all of this, their perception of what "next generation" means, seems to be firmly stuck in 2012.

Edited by ChinRey
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Thank you for all that, Rey, but none of means anything to me. All I know is that LL announced that they were going to produce the next generation of 3D world, and, imo, they didn't even try. Instead they skipped ahead and got stuck into sansar, which, imo, is doomed.

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2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Thank you for all that, Rey, but none of means anything to me. All I know is that LL announced that they were going to produce the next generation of 3D world, and, imo, they didn't even try.

I do actually think they tried. But they overlooked opractically everything that has happened in dynamic 3D the last few years. In other words, they didn't do their homework.

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On 11/2/2018 at 6:01 PM, Callum Meriman said:

Most forumites likely want this white elephant to die so the Lab can invest money into SL again.

"White elephant" is apt. It's not that I want it to die, though; rather the Sansar investment came with a huge opportunity cost -- whether they put the money in SL or some other development, they chased VR down the rabbit hole. I mean, yeah, Sansar runs on desktop computers too, but there's really no good case to be made for it except VR. Meanwhile even Facebook/Oculus is shrinking VR investments now with Rift 2 cancelled, Iribe finally leaving, and Palmer Luckey* saying current VR wouldn't have mass market appeal even if you gave it away.

As much as SL development has progressed, I don't think you'd find a developer who wouldn't appreciate having more help. They all have long backlogs of projects and bugs they'd like to work on, but instead are often in firefighting mode -- inevitable when you have real users, but when do you ever have enough firefighters?

In a way, we're fortunate that Sansar's user base is stubbornly failing to grow. If there were ever enough users to trip over the bugs and scaling problems inherent to any new system, they'd pull over SL's proven firefighters to try to keep Sansar viable. As long as there's nobody really exercising the platform there's no need to raid resources to fix what there's nobody to notice is broken.

___________
*monster raving loony

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I always got the sense Sansar was all about Experiences intentionally minus the whole rest of SL type paradigm.  I never once thought it was intended to replace SL, or saw it announced as such.  Its for VR experiences, SL simply cannot do those at present, because, frame rates.

I think its rather shortsighted to assume LL would even do something like Sansar if there weren't considerable private contracts to compel the build-out.  I would suspect that's where its made almost all of its money, im not sure how much the marketplace generates there yet, but private contracts could be plenty to sustain it as it develops out, and few people would know about such things, especially not the general public. (this could have also semi-dictated infrastructure and tech stack)

It does seem they could add a lot more tech to the mix over there, but ive not tested in quite some time, perhaps its gotten further along, I watched Mihal's recent vid's, it looks to be developing quite nicely.

Surely after all these years LL knows how to roll with the punches and get things in order, SL would not have survived this long if not, I wouldn't count them out so easily when it comes to Sansar, or SL.  There could be all sorts of factors we're unaware of, and things being planned, etc.

Edit:

I just want to add what a great milestone it is for a company to be able to support multiple brands, such decisions do not come lightly, or without great pangs and efforts.  We now have multiple Kombucha brands and more stuff in the works, its a great place to be in for any biz, so while some seem to think LL is stressed and sweating, I believe even if they are, they're doing so with intentional calculations, and likely enjoying the whole lot of it.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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Meanwhile VR is moving very quickly towards lower cost, and very much untethered ARM based solutions.

Although I have a Vive, I am beginning to think tethered VR will go the way of the powerglove before 2020.

279290130_download(61).jpeg.5f746345ef83ff0b5cb4409a1654e684.jpeg

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9 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Meanwhile VR is moving very quickly towards lower cost, and very much untethered ARM based solutions.

Although I have a Vive, I am beginning to think tethered VR will go the way of the powerglove before 2020.

279290130_download(61).jpeg.5f746345ef83ff0b5cb4409a1654e684.jpeg

STOP! lol! Im waiting to buy my VR gear until I build my new PC, I dont wanna puke like I hear happens to some.  I do have a strong rig but stronger is better in the case of VR.

Edit: Wait until they figure out usability of quantum tunneling, computing will never be the same again. ;)

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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2 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Wait until they figure out usability of quantum tunneling, computing will never be the same again

The company that makes "Quantum Computers" is run by a marketing sith and a lab technician...

The scientist who originated the concept of "Quantum Computing" is on public record as saying they have misunderstood his work completely.

In tests, one of their "advanced computers of the future", costing many hundreds of thousands of US$, was outperformed by a low end desktop...

And so far they STILL haven't provided ANY real evidence that their machines actually make use of Quantum entanglement, at all...

And speaking of PR Hype vs Reality...

4 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I think its rather shortsighted to assume LL would even do something like Sansar if there weren't considerable private contracts to compel the build-out

History is important...

More than 4 years ago, an EX Linden announced publicly that he intended to create "SL-2 Ain't no Lindens HERE", and begged the world to "crowd code" the system for him, and "crowd fund" it so he could own it when they had written it, he also made a whole raft of promises about his "new seamless, no sim borders" virtual world.

Today, we call that mess "Lo-Fidelity", and it has fulfilled NONE of the original "begging letter to the world" promises.

At the time, it posed NO threat to SL (and realistically still doesn't). In spite of this, LL decided to indulge in a Knee-Jerk panic reaction, and launched Project Stupid, with NO clear idea of what it was meant to be, who would use it, what they would use it for, or why.

They stated it would be ready in "a year or so" and that most if not all of us would obviously migrate to the new system.

It wasn't, we didn't, and won't.

It's 3 years behind schedule, overbudget and going nowhere, it was designed by a team with the brief to "reinvent the wheel on everything" and they set about reinventing every aspect of the system, a method generally considered to be a BAD way to make software, to the very latest 2012 tech standards, starting in 2014...

And here it s today, 2018, still not finished, still years behind current tech, still unpopular, still costing an arm and a leg.

Outdated White Elephant Money Pit With NO Target Userbase...

13 hours ago, ChinRey said:

In 2014 LL diverted most of their development resources to Sansar, leaving just a skeleton crew to handle SL. The result was a drastic improvement in the quality of SL development. Better management, better focus, smarter solutions

English Translation: All the overpaid junior executive chair warmers migrated to the "kewl new project" where the Money Pit dev budget guaranteed plenty of 3 hour, expense account "executive power lunches"... Heh.


 



 

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5 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I never once thought it was intended to replace SL, or saw it announced as such.

That's hard to say. In 2012 Rod Humble mentioned that LL was working on an SL 2 . It makes sense to assume Sansar is a continuation of this and much of what Ebbe Altberg has said more than hints at this.

However, when Sansar was officially announced in 2014, it had already been redefined as a separate project and Ebbe made it clear that they expected Second Life to continue for years to come. He was a little bit ambigious about it though, on one hand he said SL would go on but on the other hand he seems to have expected most users would flock over to Sansar once it was ready.

For some reason he opened a Q&A thread at SL Universe rather than at the official forum and unfortunately that thread is not available at the moment. But he also participated in a thread started by Jo Yardley here:

It's quite interesting to see what has changed and what remains from the 2014 plans.

---

5 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I think its rather shortsighted to assume LL would even do something like Sansar if there weren't considerable private contracts to compel the build-out.

You mean like big companies ready to jump in to this new world? There were and it wasn't even a secret. I don't think there are anymore though.

 

9 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

"White elephant" is apt. It's not that I want it to die, though; rather the Sansar investment came with a huge opportunity cost -- whether they put the money in SL or some other development, they chased VR down the rabbit hole. I mean, yeah, Sansar runs on desktop computers too, but there's really no good case to be made for it except VR. Meanwhile even Facebook/Oculus is shrinking VR investments now with Rift 2 cancelled, Iribe finally leaving, and Palmer Luckey* saying current VR wouldn't have mass market appeal even if you gave it away.

Already? I didn't expect that to happen until next year.

I wouldn't call Sansar a white elephant but it's certainly a one trick pony. The trick it does is hardly original and if it doesn't even interest many people, it's bound to have problems.

 

9 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

As much as SL development has progressed, I don't think you'd find a developer who wouldn't appreciate having more help. They all have long backlogs of projects and bugs they'd like to work on, but instead are often in firefighting mode -- inevitable when you have real users, but when do you ever have enough firefighters?

I can actually agree that SL could do with more development power now that they have consolidated their position. But that was not the case in 2014.

 

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

English Translation: All the overpaid junior executive chair warmers migrated to the "kewl new project" where the Money Pit dev budget guaranteed plenty of 3 hour, expense account "executive power lunches"... Heh.

Actually no. Most of those people are busy getting High on Phillipity or stuck in other DOA projects at a safe distance from LL. The developers and programmers who went on to Sansar (at least the ones I know a little bit about) are good people who should be able to to a good job under the right work conditions.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

The company that makes "Quantum Computers" is run by a marketing sith and a lab technician...

The scientist who originated the concept of "Quantum Computing" is on public record as saying they have misunderstood his work completely.

In tests, one of their "advanced computers of the future", costing many hundreds of thousands of US$, was outperformed by a low end desktop...

And so far they STILL haven't provided ANY real evidence that their machines actually make use of Quantum entanglement, at all...

And speaking of PR Hype vs Reality...

History is important...

More than 4 years ago, an EX Linden announced publicly that he intended to create "SL-2 Ain't no Lindens HERE", and begged the world to "crowd code" the system for him, and "crowd fund" it so he could own it when they had written it, he also made a whole raft of promises about his "new seamless, no sim borders" virtual world.

Today, we call that mess "Lo-Fidelity", and it has fulfilled NONE of the original "begging letter to the world" promises.

At the time, it posed NO threat to SL (and realistically still doesn't). In spite of this, LL decided to indulge in a Knee-Jerk panic reaction, and launched Project Stupid, with NO clear idea of what it was meant to be, who would use it, what they would use it for, or why.

They stated it would be ready in "a year or so" and that most if not all of us would obviously migrate to the new system.

It wasn't, we didn't, and won't.

It's 3 years behind schedule, overbudget and going nowhere, it was designed by a team with the brief to "reinvent the wheel on everything" and they set about reinventing every aspect of the system, a method generally considered to be a BAD way to make software, to the very latest 2012 tech standards, starting in 2014...

And here it s today, 2018, still not finished, still years behind current tech, still unpopular, still costing an arm and a leg.

Outdated White Elephant Money Pit With NO Target Userbase...

English Translation: All the overpaid junior executive chair warmers migrated to the "kewl new project" where the Money Pit dev budget guaranteed plenty of 3 hour, expense account "executive power lunches"... Heh.

lol yea, Quantum Tunneling has nada to do with so-called "quantum computers" they're simply using a trick to cram in more data, cool definitely, but not really matching the hype IMO.  Quantum Tunneling is how Nature does computing, including all over your body, it is replete throughout natural systems.  Space/Time are no boundary to it, no man-made machine has yet publicly achieved such mastery.

Edit:  To your other point, I do recall it was hoped to make Sansar SL2 but that ended up not being the case, and they were adamant about the fact that SL was not going anywhere and would take the slow ride of upgrading legacy to newstuff over time, and that Sansar was paired back to be something much less complex than SL, afterall, SL is the most complex thing of its type in history, one doesnt simply replace it so easily.  They couldn't possibly be much more different even at the core Sansar is proprietary, whereas SL is a lot of opensource and community engagement.  They really are two totally different games, with a few similarities, no pun intended lol.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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