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23 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Yep, it's one thing I notice as I slowly try and push my Deutsch above toddler level. A lot of words we use in English come from German roots.

Well, maybe not Oberaffentittengeil which will always be the #1 ultimate word.

pfffft! Everyone knows the best word ever SOUNDS German but isn't. As an antique vinyl record collection we have here proves... xD

and... peeps are pardoned for mistaking Crux, (aussie southern cross), as 1901 or whatever. The amazing and beautiful gold assaying "kit" of my ancestors used at Sovereign Hill has been dated pre 1900 by 50 years or so. That is when the flag was first made as Callum pointed out.

 

Edited by Maryanne Solo
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According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

I'd guess that the  SPLC's definition of an extremist group is anyone who uses the Southern Cross.

The SPLC is a radical leftist group so it itself is in fact a hate group.

 

Southern Poverty Law Center Transfers Millions in Cash to Offshore Entities

Left-wing nonprofit pays lucrative six-figure salaries to top management

  • August 31, 2017 5:00 am

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), a liberal, Alabama-based 501(c)(3) tax-exempt charitable organization that has gained prominence on the left for its "hate group" designations, pushes millions of dollars to offshore entities as part of its business dealings, records show.

Additionally, the nonprofit pays lucrative six-figure salaries to its top directors and key employees while spending little on legal services despite its stated intent of "fighting hate and bigotry" using litigation, education, and other forms of advocacy.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is perhaps best known for its "hate map," a collection of organizations the nonprofit deems "domestic hate groups" that lists mainstream conservative organizations alongside racist groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and is often referenced in the media. A gunman opened fire at the Washington, D.C., offices of the conservative Family Research Council in 2012 after seeing it listed as an "anti-gay" group on SPLC's website.

The SPLC has turned into a fundraising powerhouse, recording more than $50 million in contributions and $328 million in net assets on its 2015 Form 990, the most recently available tax form from the nonprofit. SPLC's Form 990-T, its business income tax return, from the same year shows that they have "financial interests" in the Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, and Bermuda. No information is available beyond the acknowledgment of the However, the Washington Free Beacon discovered forms from 2014 that shed light on some of the Southern Poverty Law Center's transfers to foreign entities.

The SPLC's Form 8865, a Return of U.S. Persons With Respect to Certain Foreign Partnerships, from 2014 shows that the nonprofit transferred hundreds of thousands to an account located in the Cayman Islands.

SPLC lists Tiger Global Management LLC, a New York-based private equity financial firm, as an agent on its form. The form shows a foreign partnership between the SPLC and Tiger Global Private Investment Partners IX, L.P., a pooled investment fund in the Cayman Islands. SPLC transferred $960,000 in cash on Nov. 24, 2014 to Tiger Global Private Investment Partners IX, L.P, its records show.

The SPLC's Form 926, a Return by a U.S. Transferor of Property to a Foreign Corporation, from 2014 shows additional cash transactions that the nonprofit had sent to offshore funds.

The SPLC reported a $102,007 cash transfer on Dec. 24, 2014 to BPV-III Cayman X Limited, a foreign entity located in the Cayman Islands. The group then sent $157,574 in cash to BPV-III Cayman XI Limited on Dec. 31, 2014, an entity that lists the same PO Box address in Grand Cayman as the previous transfer.

The nonprofit pushed millions more into offshore funds at the beginning of 2015.

On March 1, 2015, SPLC sent $2,200,000 to an entity incorporated in Canana Bay, Cayman Islands, according to Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) records and run by a firm firm based in Greenwich, Ct. Another $2,200,000 cash transfer was made on the same day to another fund whose business is located at the same address as the previous fund in the Cayman Islands, according to SEC records.

No information is contained on its interests in Bermuda on the 2014 forms. SPLC's financial stakes in the British Virgin Islands were not acknowledged until its 2015 tax form.

Lucinda Chappelle, a principal at Jackson Thornton, the public accounting firm in Montgomery, Ala., that prepared the SPLC's tax forms, said she does not discuss client matters and hung up the phone when the Free Beacon contacted her in an attempt to get the most updated forms from the group in relation to its foreign business dealings.

Tax experts expressed confusion when being told of the transfer.

"I've never known a US-based nonprofit dealing in human rights or social services to have any foreign bank accounts," said Amy Sterling Casil, CEO of Pacific Human Capital, a California-based nonprofit consulting firm. "My impression based on prior interactions is that they have a small, modestly paid staff, and were regarded by most in the industry as frugal and reliable. I am stunned to learn of transfers of millions to offshore bank accounts. It is a huge red flag and would have been completely unacceptable to any wealthy, responsible, experienced board member who was committed to a charitable mission who I ever worked with."

"It is unethical for any US-based charity to invest large sums of money overseas," said Casil. "I know of no legitimate reason for any US-based nonprofit to put money in overseas, unregulated bank accounts."

"It seems extremely unusual for a ‘501(c)(3)' concentrating upon reducing poverty in the American South to have multiple bank accounts in tax haven nations," Charles Ortel, a former Wall Street analyst and financial advisor who helped uncover a 2009 financial scandal at General Electric, told the Free Beacon.

The nonprofit also pays lucrative salaries to its top leadership.

Richard Cohen, president and chief executive officer of the SPLC, was given $346,218 in base compensation in 2015, its tax forms show. Cohen received $20,000 more in other reportable compensation and non-taxable benefits. Morris Dees, SPLC's chief trial counsel, received a salary of $329,560 with $42,000 in additional reportable compensation and non-taxable benefits.

The minimum amount paid to an officer, director, trustee, or key employee in 2015 was $140,000 in base salary, not including other compensation.  The group spent $20 million on salaries throughout the year.

The SPLC, which claims to boast a staff of 75 lawyers who practice in the area of children's rights, economic justice, immigrant justice, LGBT rights, and criminal justice reform, reported spending only $61,000 on legal services in 2015.

Following recent violence in Charlottesville, Va., the group raised a great deal of money.

Apple CEO Tim Cook told his employees that the company is donating $1 million to the SPLC and would match employee contributions two to one. Cook also placed an SPLC donation button in its iTunes store. The company is additionally providing a $1 million donation to the Anti-Defamation League.

J.P Morgan Chase vowed to add a $500,000 donation for the group's "work in tracking, exposing, and fighting hate groups and other extremist organizations."

The Washington Times reported that CNN ran a wire story following the Charlottesville events originally titled, "Here are all the active hate groups where you live" using SPLC's list of 917 groups.

Brad Dacus, the president of the Pacific Justice Institute, a Sacramento-based group that defends "religious freedom, parental rights, and other civil liberties without charge," was listed on the "hate groups" list.

"Why is the Southern Poverty Law Center doing this? It's simple. They want to vilify and isolate anyone that doesn't agree with their very extremist leftist policy and ideology," Dacus told the Times. "This isn't about defending civil rights; this is about attacking civil rights."

"I am shocked that CNN would publish such a false report on the heels of the Charlottesville tragedy," added Mat Staver, the founder of Liberty Counsel, a Christian nonprofit that provides pro bono assistance and representation, which is also featured on SPLC's list. "To lump peaceful Christian organizations, which condemn violence and racism, in with the KKK, neo-Nazis, and white supremacists is offensive. This is the epitome of fake news and is why people no longer trust the media."

CNN later changed its headline to, "The Southern Poverty Law Center's list of hate groups."

"The SPLC is an anti-conservative, anti-Christian hate group that the media have given pretend legitimacy to. One glance at their 990 tax forms is a reminder just what a fund-raising super-power it is," Dan Gainor, vice president of Business and Culture at the Media Research Center, told the Free Beacon. "Its assets are over $328 million in 2015 and went up $13 million in just one year. It doesn't need new liberal money. It could operate for at least six years and never raise a penny. It's like a perpetual motion machine for fundraisers."

The SPLC has also been hit with a number of lawsuits over "hate" defamation claims in recent days.

The Southern Poverty Law Center did not return a request for comment on its foreign financial dealings by press time.

https://freebeacon.com/issues/southern-poverty-law-center-transfers-millions-in-cash-to-offshore-entities/

 

Edited by Phorumities
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I wonder, does the SPLC List the Nation of Islam as a hate group?

Farrakhan in Iran: ‘Death to Israel,’ America Is ‘Satan’

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan spoke in Tehran Sunday, leading chants of "death to Israel" and "death to America," according to Iranian news agencies.

Farrakhan is a well-documented bigot, having made deeply misogynistic, homophobic, and anti-Semitic comments. The Anti-Defamation League describes the Nation of Islam as having "a consistent record of anti-Semitism" since the 1930s. Farrakhan called Jews "termites" earlier this month, and has called Adolf Hitler a "great man."

Farrakhan's trip to Iran comes just as the United States prepares to reimplement sanctions against the nation, Fox News reports. Speaking alongside Secretary of Iran's Expediency Council Mohsen Rezaee to Iranian law students, Farrakhan referred to the United States as "Satan" and voiced support for Iranian opposition to American interests. "I understand how the enemies have plotted against the Iranian people and I would like to stay alongside you to stop their plots," 

 
Prominent Democrats have at times failed to call out and at times embraced Farrakhan.

President Bill Clinton shared a stage with Farrakhan at Aretha Franklin’s funeral. His daughter Chelsea Clinton, however, called on Democrats to condemn Farrakhan following his "termites" comment.

Former Attorney General Eric Holder posed for a photograph with him at Franklin's funeral.

President Barak Obama posed for a photograph with Farrakhan in 2005. The photographer, Askia Muhammad, admitted earlier this year that he had suppressed the photograph for fear Obama may be tied to Farrakhan during his presidential campaigns. He said the photograph "absolutely would have made a difference."

Linda Sarsour, a leader of the Women’s March and prominent progressive figure, has maintained tiesto Farrakhan. She also has ties to unindicted terror co-conspirators and publicly expressed a wish to "take away" the ***** of an insufficiently progressive woman. She has repeatedly declined to condemn Farrakhan.   

Tamika Mallory, another Women’s March leader, has called Farrakhan the "GOAT," greatest of all time, and defended him on multiple occasions, forcing some of the March’s organizers to apologize to Jewish supporters for the pain she caused.

Rep. Danny Davis (D., Ill.), called Farrakhan "an outstanding human being."

At least one of Davis’ colleagues has tried to publicly distance himself from the minister. Rep. Keith Ellison (D., Minn.,), the Democratic National Committee vice chair, claims he cut ties with the minister, with whom he had a long-running relationship. The Washington Post gave that claim Four Pinnochios, documenting several times they have been together in recent years. Ellison is running for attorney general of Minnesota.

Few in the liberal media have taken Farrakhan’s prominence seriously or asked Democrats to disavow him.

https://freebeacon.com/issues/farrakhan-iran-death-israel-america-satan/

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30 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I wonder, does the SPLC List the Nation of Islam as a hate group?

Yes. See Theresa’s post. Are you afraid to use google because you will find too many things you disagree with? 

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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes. See Theresa’s post. Are you afraid to use google because you will find too many things you disagree with? 

Actually, there has been news that Google and FaceBook, based on all the data they scrape from you, are more likely to skew search results toward things you actually *do* agree with :) 

/me thinks she should save bookmarks to this stuff so she can show her sources.

OH! Come to think of it, I think that one was a report on the radio news :)

And, umm, DuckDuckGo.com FTW

Edited by Alyona Su

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10 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Actually, there has been news that Google and FaceBook, based on all the data they scrape from you, are more likely to skew search results toward things you actually *do* agree with :) 

/me thinks she should save bookmarks to this stuff so she can show her sources.

OH! Come to think of it, I think that one was a report on the radio news :)

And, umm, DuckDuckGo.com FTW

I can see that with Facebook, but I thought for Google if you “don’t log in” or use “private mode”, it would give “pure” results.

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5 hours ago, Phorumities said:

The SPLC is a radical leftist group so it itself is in fact a hate group.

Why do the efforts of the Southern Poverty Law Center matter to you? They are simply a group attempting to combat racism and hate. A powerful one, albeit, but why do they matter in our evaluation here of whether the usage of this particular flag is of value? I think I can answer that...if you can discredit them you imagine you can discredit their mission. Deflection anyone?
P.S. Any group, no matter what they've fighting for, is both effective and ineffective. So far, I do not know of any faults in this group to be worthy of trashing the entire group and its mission.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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4 hours ago, Phorumities said:

Believe it or not, on the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, there were national celebrations and remembrances. It wasn't ignored at all like on the 150th. Perhaps on the 200th anniversary,  sanity will have been restored and we can all remember this time in our history, and not pretend that it didn't happen.

It's a sad commentary on our times when people are shamed into ignoring their own past.

Yes, and I can't wait for the day when Nazis and their Swastika can be celebrated too in honor of their past history. It's very sad to deny the celebration of the murder and torture of countless humans, and those brave Nazis who fought the good fight, sporting their beloved symbol.

tears.jpg

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13 hours ago, Phorumities said:
13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

So why do you insist on doing something that bothers others so greatly?

I'm really not responsible for how anyone elses chooses to interpret anything I do.

In other words, It's not my problem, its yours.

Reality includes people beyond yourself. Society. Yes I know you hate that word.
You know even Libertarians are concerned about hurting others in their pursuit of freedom, but you're really not a Libertarian as you claim, are you?

Believe me I know the narrative used to justify your hate -- the Civil War wasnt really about slavery, and was instead about States Rights and your efforts to control your own destiny in the South as you wanted. Proof that it wasn't about slavery is a few prejudiced comments by Lincoln you manage to dig up. You believe the Confederate Battle Flag represents ONLY the pride you deserve in this noble fight for freedom, and the fact that it's been used for decades by the likes of the klu Klux Klan to terrorize people of color is of no concern to you.
I only wish you knew how stupid you look with that dumb Confederate flag on your car, exhilarated by having the ability to thumb your nose up at the actual victors. Basking in your silly delusion that somehow you are still winning the war by displaying an ugly symbol of hate.

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13 hours ago, Phorumities said:

You'll have to explain in more detail how a flag or a symbol can harm anyone.

"Lynching was a popular public spectacle in Georgia that could last for hours and included sadistic torture and mutilation. Children were let out of school and workers were given the day off to witness the events. When Sam Hose, who had thrown his ax at a white man and killed him after the man pulled a gun on him, was lynched on April 23, 1899, near Newman, Ga., 1,000 people attended. Many arrived on a special excursion train from Atlanta. Hose was stripped and chained to a tree. His executioners stacked kerosene-soaked logs around him. They cut off Hose’s ears, fingers and genitals. They flayed his face. Members of the crowd thrust knives into him. The logs were lit.

“The only sounds that came from the victim’s lips, even as his blood sizzled in the fire, were ‘Oh, my God! Oh, Jesus,’ ” writes Leon Litwack in “Trouble in Mind: Black Southerners in the Age of Jim Crow.” “Before Hose’s body had even cooled, his heart and liver were removed and cut into several pieces and his bones were crushed into small particles. The crowd fought over these souvenirs, and the ‘more fortunate possessors’ made some handsome profits on the sales. (Small pieces of bone went for 25 cents, a piece of liver ‘crisply cooked’ sold for 10 cents.) Shortly after the lynching, one of the participants reportedly left for the state capital, hoping to deliver to the governor of Georgia a slice of Sam Hose’s heart.”

On the trunk of a tree near the lynching, a placard read: “We Must Protect Our Southern Women.”

In May of 1918, Mary Turner, eight months pregnant, publicly denounced the lynching of her husband, Hazel “Hayes” Turner, who had been murdered the day before. She threatened to take those who lynched him to court. A mob of several hundred in Valdosta, Ga., hunted her down. They tied the pregnant woman’s ankles together and hung her upside down from a tree. They doused her clothes with gasoline and set her on fire. Someone used a hog-butchering knife to rip open her womb. Her baby fell the ground and cried briefly. A member of the mob crushed the infant’s head under the heel of his boot. Hundreds of rounds were shot into her body. The Associated Press reported that Mary Turner had made “unwise remarks” about the lynching of her husband “and the people, in their indignation, took exceptions to her remarks, as well as her attitude.”

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8 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Scroll down to the page below the photo of Jefferson Davis' inauguration. You'll see a quote from the Charleston Daily Courier referring to the battle flag as the "Southern Cross". The newspaper article was dated February 15, 1861.

Thanks, but those pages discuss competing designs for the regular flag of the CSA, of which the winning choice was what's known as the "Stars and Bars".   The references to flags bearing the "Southern Cross" both refer to designs that weren't chosen, and both of which are described as bearing the "Latin" cross as opposed to a saltire.  Indeed, the Wikipedia article you quoted earlier tells us that  

Quote

According to Museum of the Confederacy Director John Coski, Miles' design was inspired by one of the many "secessionist flags" flown at the South Carolina secession convention in Charleston of December 1860. That flag was a blue St George's Cross (an upright or Latin cross) on a red field, with 15 white stars on the cross, representing the slaveholding states, and, on the red field, palmetto and crescent symbols. Miles received a variety of feedback on this design, including a critique from Charles Moise, a self-described "Southerner of Jewish persuasion." Moise liked the design but asked that "...the symbol of a particular religion not be made the symbol of the nation." Taking this into account, Miles changed his flag, removing the palmetto and crescent, and substituting a heraldic saltire ("X") for the upright cross. The number of stars was changed several times as well. He described these changes and his reasons for making them in early 1861. The diagonal cross was preferable, he wrote, because "it avoided the religious objection about the cross (from the Jews and many Protestant sects), because it did not stand out so conspicuously as if the cross had been placed upright thus." He also argued that the diagonal cross was "more Heraldric [sic] than Ecclesiastical, it being the 'saltire' of Heraldry, and significant of strength and progress."

According to Coski, the Saint Andrew's Cross (also used on the flag of Scotland as a white saltire on a blue field) had no special place in Southern iconography at the time, and if Miles had not been eager to conciliate the Southern Jews, his flag would have used the traditional upright "Saint George's Cross" (as used on the flag of England, a red cross on a white field). A colonel named James B. Walton submitted a battle flag design essentially identical to Miles' except with an upright Saint George's cross, but Beauregard chose the diagonal cross design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

That is, in brief, we know that people referred to designs showing a St George's Cross containing stars -- similar, at least in principle, to the Australian miners' "Southern Cross" -- as the "Southern Cross,"  and that when Miles came to design the battle flag, he wanted something similar. 

However, we also know that he changed his mind about this and, instead, designed a flag based on a saltire, precisely because Southern Jews and some Protestants didn't want a "cross" on the flag.   The original plan was to have a flag similar to ones referred to in the Charleston Daily Courier as the "Southern Cross" but that was rejected, precisely because of objections to having a"cross" on the battle flag.

So my question remains, when is the first published record of someone calling the Confederate Battle Flag -- with the saltire -- the "Southern Cross"?    I'm surprised by how easy it was for both me and @Callum Meriman to track down contemporary references to the Australian flag as the "Southern Cross," and I'm wondering why similar contemporary references to the Confederate Battle Flag seem to be so elusive.

Edited by Innula Zenovka

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5 hours ago, Maryanne Solo said:

pfffft! Everyone knows the best word ever SOUNDS German but isn't. As an antique vinyl record collection we have here proves... xD

and... peeps are pardoned for mistaking Crux, (aussie southern cross), as 1901 or whatever. The amazing and beautiful gold assaying "kit" of my ancestors used at Sovereign Hill has been dated pre 1900 by 50 years or so. That is when the flag was first made as Callum pointed out.

 

It translates to "loud noise", according to John Kay. ;)

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1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can see that with Facebook, but I thought for Google if you “don’t log in” or use “private mode”, it would give “pure” results.

The news report was about some new expose movie about Google and FB called "the Creepy Line" (I remember it now) and the excerpt they placed explained that no login is necessary, the cookies they drop and the tags and analytics they use on all the other websites are how they can create lists with your full name, phone number, and street address. LOL

BUT, I digress - just answer you and not meaning to throw the thread off toward a serious note :)

ON topic: Want to hear a really dirty story?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The running boy fell into the mud. Le Fin.

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48 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Thanks, but those pages discuss competing designs for the regular flag of the CSA, of which the winning choice was what's known as the "Stars and Bars".   The references to flags bearing the "Southern Cross" both refer to designs that weren't chosen, and both of which are described as bearing the "Latin" cross as opposed to a saltire.  Indeed, the Wikipedia article you quoted earlier tells us that  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

That is, in brief, we know that people referred to designs showing a St George's Cross containing stars -- similar, at least in principle, to the Australian miners' "Southern Cross" -- as the "Southern Cross,"  and that when Miles came to design the battle flag, he wanted something similar. 

However, we also know that he changed his mind about this and, instead, designed a flag based on a saltire, precisely because Southern Jews and some Protestants didn't want a "cross" on the flag.   The original plan was to have a flag similar to ones referred to in the Charleston Daily Courier as the "Southern Cross" but that was rejected, precisely because of objections to having a"cross" on the battle flag.

So my question remains, when is the first published record of someone calling the Confederate Battle Flag -- with the saltire -- the "Southern Cross"?    I'm surprised by how easy it was for both me and @Callum Meriman to track down contemporary references to the Australian flag as the "Southern Cross," and I'm wondering why similar contemporary references to the Confederate Battle Flag seem to be so elusive.

They turned the cross sideways.

You also should keep in mind that there was more than one so called battle flag. Even the Choctaw and Cherokee had their own battle flags as illustrated here: http://www.loeser.us/flags/civil.html#south 

Check out the 3rd Kentucky Mounted Infantry Regiment Flag, Cummings' White Cross Battle Flag, and Bowen's White Cross Battle Flag on that page. All three have actual crosses, rather than the rotated St Andrew's.

Much of the information you are looking for was repressed or was never available and is now lost to history. Similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the repression of native traditions. Possibly because the term was never widespread and then was commandeered by the KKK and other white supremacist groups.

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I came for the Too funny and found only pain..

FjRQX.gif

Edited by Ceka Cianci

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6 hours ago, Phorumities said:

I'm not even sure why everyone is getting bogged down with the name or when it was first used.

Because it's interesting.  I've learned some things from the posts in this thread, especially about the miners rebellion  in Australia.  I wasn't even aware that there had been gold mining in  Australia, especially at that time, or a rebellion there over lack of representation.   I also didn't know about the various crosses and saltires that have been used on flags. I was reminded of the Southern Cross constellation, which I've read about in books and stories that have taken place in the southern hemisphere, but don't which I haven't seen being as I have not ever been in the southern hemisphere.  So outside of the political bickering, I've enjoyed aspects of this thread.  It's also left me wondering about the origin of the word "Eureka" and the memory I have of it being used or meaning "I found it".  We have a town called Eureka in California, though it was much more involved with timber industry than any major gold mining connections, I think.

5 hours ago, Phorumities said:

It's a sad commentary on our times when people are shamed into ignoring their own past.

I don't think that people should be shamed into ignoring their own past, but I think it's good when people can look at the past reflectively and critically, and be able to identify things that should be glorified and to identify things which may not have showed us at our best and perhaps should be a memory which prompts us to try to do things better in the future.  

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39 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

They turned the cross sideways.

You also should keep in mind that there was more than one so called battle flag. Even the Choctaw and Cherokee had their own battle flags as illustrated here: http://www.loeser.us/flags/civil.html#south 

Check out the 3rd Kentucky Mounted Infantry Regiment Flag, Cummings' White Cross Battle Flag, and Bowen's White Cross Battle Flag on that page. All three have actual crosses, rather than the rotated St Andrew's.

Much of the information you are looking for was repressed or was never available and is now lost to history. Similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the repression of native traditions. Possibly because the term was never widespread and then was commandeered by the KKK and other white supremacist groups.

Certainly,  but it still must be the case that, at some point, people started referring to the Confederate Battle Flag -- the saltire with stars on it -- as the "Southern Cross."    I'm simply wondering whether it was a contemporary usage or whether it came later.    It's simple enough to track down contemporary sources that call the flag used by the Australian miners in their rebellion, the "Southern Cross."  Similarly, it's easy to track down contemporary references to the first official flag of the CSA as the "Stars and Bars" (the OED has a reference to the New York Times of 1861), so I'm not sure that the idea the information "was repressed" is particularly attractive.

I'm just wondering when people started calling the battle flag the "Southern Cross."    Does anyone have a reference earlier than 1900, for example?   (I just use 1900 as a convenient cut-off point).   

I see, by the way, that (at least according to the Wikipedia article on the American Civil War Centennial) that the use of the Battle Flag as an emblem of the Confederacy as a whole is very recent:

Quote

Prior to 1957, celebrants of Southern heritage adopted a wide variety of signs and symbols. In the late 1950s, many white Southerners united around a modified version of the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as the flag to be used in commemoration of the Centennial, and this flag was raised at many 100th-anniversary events. For example, the modified Confederate flag was raised on the grounds of the South Carolina State House in April 1961 as part of the 100th-anniversary commemoration by South Carolina's government of the reduction of Fort Sumter.  Eleven months later, state lawmakers passed a law requiring the flag's commemorative appearance be made permanent and that the flag be flown over the capitol itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_Centennial

That is, people used to use all sorts of flags to "celebrate their Southern heritage," and it's only since the 1950s that the battle flag has been used as the general flag.     When you come to think of it, it makes perfect sense for people who want to commemorate the cause for which members of their family, or people from their town or city, fought to use the the actual regimental colours their ancestors followed than anything else, so I can see why people would be using the various flags you mention rather than one generic flag.

    

Edited by Innula Zenovka

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23 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You also should keep in mind that there was more than one so called battle flag. Even the Choctaw and Cherokee had their own battle flags as illustrated here: http://www.loeser.us/flags/civil.html#south 

I was surprised to see one labeled as "California Confederate Flag" but I have been reading a local history blog about the county where I live, and most of the towns in my county were pro-south during the time of the Civil War (I think there was only one major town that was pro-Union).   History can be odd and interesting. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm just wondering when people started calling the battle flag the "Southern Cross."    Does anyone have a reference earlier than 1900, for example?   (I just use 1900 as a convenient cut-off point).   

This is a non-answer, but non-civil war buffs (like me) wouldn’t know a “southern cross” it bit us on the heiney. Funny, my opinion is that it’s bad when people rotate the cross, turn it upside-down, set it on fire, etc.

It’s almost like when bad guys wear  black, robbers wear masks, KKK wear hoods, fascists wear swastikas, etc. I count those who worship the “Confederate flag” among the same group of nasties. To be shunned, unless perhaps purely used for re-enactment.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Certainly,  but it still must be the case that, at some point, people started referring to the Confederate Battle Flag -- the saltire with stars on it -- as the "Southern Cross."    I'm simply wondering whether it was a contemporary usage or whether it came later.    It's simple enough to track down contemporary sources that call the flag used by the Australian miners in their rebellion, the "Southern Cross."  Similarly, it's easy to track down contemporary references to the first official flag of the CSA as the "Stars and Bars" (the OED has a reference to the New York Times of 1861), so I'm not sure that the idea the information "was repressed" is particularly attractive.

I'm just wondering when people started calling the battle flag the "Southern Cross."    Does anyone have a reference earlier than 1900, for example?   (I just use 1900 as a convenient cut-off point).   

I see, by the way, that (at least according to the Wikipedia article on the American Civil War Centennial) that the use of the Battle Flag as an emblem of the Confederacy as a whole is very recent:

That is, people used to use all sorts of flags to "celebrate their Southern heritage," and it's only since the 1950s that the battle flag has been used as the general flag.     When you come to think of it, it makes perfect sense for people who want to commemorate the cause for which members of their family, or people from their town or city, fought to use the the actual regimental colours their ancestors followed than anything else, so I can see why people would be using the various flags you mention rather than one generic flag.

    

I thought I had made it clear that there was never any common usage of the term and that it was a contemporary usage. The first usage was in 1861 but it never really caught on and became a "thing" until the 1900s. I couldn't remember precisely when it started and didn't really have the energy last night to dig for it. New job requires standing on my feet which doesn't make my back happy and the stress of the first work day (after training) had my head aching. So I wasn't exactly thinking clearly last night. Sorry for any confusion.

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33 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Certainly,  but it still must be the case that, at some point, people started referring to the Confederate Battle Flag -- the saltire with stars on it -- as the "Southern Cross."    I'm simply wondering whether it was a contemporary usage or whether it came later.    It's simple enough to track down contemporary sources that call the flag used by the Australian miners in their rebellion, the "Southern Cross."  Similarly, it's easy to track down contemporary references to the first official flag of the CSA as the "Stars and Bars" (the OED has a reference to the New York Times of 1861), so I'm not sure that the idea the information "was repressed" is particularly attractive.

I'm just wondering when people started calling the battle flag the "Southern Cross."    Does anyone have a reference earlier than 1900, for example?   (I just use 1900 as a convenient cut-off point).   

   

Here's a copy of the United Daughters of the Confederacy "Confederate Catechism", from 1904, which shows the "official" Southern interpretation of the Civil War in a format for teaching to children. It includes sections on both the Confederate national and battle flags, and it doesn't use the term Southern Cross anywhere.

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Children_U_D_C_Catechism_for_1904

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3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm just wondering when people started calling the battle flag the "Southern Cross."   

I think to find evidence of when its usage became prominent you'd need to read some of the texts that describe Christianity in the South & their association with the Confederacy and romanticization of the Southern Cross symbol at that time, despite the original intent for the flag.
Here's a person in more recent times (2000) romanticizing the Southern Cross:

http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/SouthernCross.html

I imagine some of the diaries of Confederate soldiers would make reference - not sure if those are online somewhere.
But you really get a sense of how Christianity joined forces with the Confederacy in the following book, Sermons Of The Confederacy. It may even reference the Southern Cross (I didn't read it all).

https://books.google.com/books?id=GtPVBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=confederacy+sermon+pastor&source=bl&ots=nT0c0kab5W&sig=VWlLVuRkjs9Obr5f07-5RTslUWk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eSKIVeKMDIX5yASWwZXYAQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=confederacy sermon pastor&f=false

Interesting stuff for me, though not so much the flag part. In the past I've studied how the evangelical philosophy became so entrenched here, in a desperate attempt to understand why the U.S. is so messed up, but had not really known much about the Christian Confederacy connection.

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10 hours ago, Phorumities said:

And yet the design is based on the National Flag of Scotland, a St Andrews Cross.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

So regardless of proper heraldry designations, it would be called colloquially a cross flag, ie the Southern Cross.

I'm not even sure why everyone is getting bogged down with the name or when it was first used.

 

Why do you say it's based on the National Flag of Scotland, a white saltire on a blue background, rather than the Russian Navy Ensign, a blue saltire on a white background?   

I'd have said simply that it's a saltire,  a common enough design in vexillography,  with no particular association with either Scotland or the Russian Navy (or, indeed, with St Andrew, who is the patron saint of both Scotland and Russia, which is why both countries use his saltire).   

The reason I'm pressing the point is much the same as the reason why you complain about people calling it the "stars and bars" --  I don't think it was originally called that and, since generally, in the context of flags, the "Southern Cross" is associated either with the Eureka Rebellion in Australia or with various countries in the southern hemisphere, I think it's best to avoid that name when referring to the CSA Battle Flag because it causes confusion.

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