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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh you can PM me with those proofs...

I don't pm anyone from the forums. You can drop by my club though, assuming the decor won't burn out your eyes or something.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Phorumities, why would you put the Confederate Battle flag on your RL car when you know this symbol has been used to harm black people? The Ku Klux Clan adopted it in the 30's, and it strikes terror in the hearts of some blacks.
As usual, you're so insensitive.

If you look at old pictures of Klan marches, the primary flag flown was the Stars and Stripes. Perhaps you'd like to  get rid of the American flag too since many people consider it a symbol of racism and oppression.

You'll have to explain in more detail how a flag or a symbol can harm anyone.

Up next.... pictures and articles about Black people who respect and love the Southern Cross

 

klan-march_dc-1925.jpg

Edited by Phorumities
fixed a word, added stuff

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

When?

Well, when this song was sung for starters. It's a St Andrews Cross, the southern version, so it was immediately know as the Southern Cross. The battle flag was called the Southern cross.

Battle flag is what is was, Southern Cross is what it was called.

Battle Cry of Freedom - Southern Version

Words and Music: George F. Root

This was one of Root's best songs. It was the most effective rallying song of the North. Soldiers sang it in battle, in camps and on the long march. The naturalness and spontaneity in the melody and rhythm give it those national qualities of a patriotic song. Root composed two sets of verses, one a civilian rallying song, the second a battle song. The Confederates could not resist the flavor of this spirited tune. One of their prolific composers, H. L. Schreiner, adapted Root's tune for a patriotic song with words by W. H. Barnes.

1. Our flag is proudly floating On the land and on the main, Shout, shout, the battle cry of Freedom; Beneath it oft we've conquered And will conquer oft again, Shout, shout, the battle cry of Freedom.

Chorus: Our Dixie forever, she's never at a loss Down with the eagle and up with the cross. We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

2. Our gallant boys have marched To the rolling of the drums, Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom; And the leaders in charge Cry, "Come boys, come!" Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

Chorus: Our Dixie forever, she's never at a loss Down with the eagle and up with the cross. We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

3. They have laid down their lives On the bloody battle field, Shout, shout, the battle cry of Freedom; Their motto is resistance "To tyrants we'll not yield!" Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

Chorus: Our Dixie forever, she's never at a loss Down with the eagle and up with the cross. We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

4. While our boys have responded And to the field have gone, Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom; Our noble women also Have aided them at home. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

Chorus: Our Dixie forever, she's never at a loss Down with the eagle and up with the cross. We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

https://www.nps.gov/vick/learn/education/singing-soldiers-battle-cry-southern.htm

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IN DEFENSE OF THE CONFEDERATE FLAG

I am by no means a Southerner, and I don’t feel any particular affinity for the Confederate flag. However, recent events have led me to feel compelled to offer a rather simple defense for this flag, though it doesn’t hold any special meaning for me.

Ever since the Charleston shooting, the PC police have crawled out of the woodwork, and have derided the Southern battle standard as a purely racist symbol, and have demanded that it be removed from every public building in the South. There’s even a Facebook petition now that is calling for a national “burn the Confederate flag day.”

But what exactly are these people railing against? What makes this symbol so repulsive that it needs to be burned? Is it because it was flown by armies that defended a slave holding regime? Or because it was carried by supposed traitors? Or perhaps because it has been proudly displayed by white supremest organizations ever since?

Here’s the problem I have with people who froth at the mouth every time they see someone with this flag. If you’re going to burn the Confederate flag because you think it stands for racism and slavery, I suggest you get started on the American flag shortly thereafter.

If I recall correctly, and maybe my history is a little rusty so feel free to call me out on this, but didn’t the Union government accept slavery right up until the Civil War? Heck, there were plenty of Northern states that allowed slavery, which they abandoned in the early 19th century, largely for economic reasons rather than ethical concerns (and also because the British Army had liberated most of them during the Revolutionary War).

Even after the Civil War occurred, there were a few slave holding states that stayed in the Union such as Delaware, Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland. There were even slave-owning officers in the Union army. There’s a reason why the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states that seceded. Lincoln didn’t want to anger many of his own officers, or cause any more states to leave.

And while we’re on the subject of Lincoln, let it be known that he could have cared less about the institution of Slavery. His main goal was to preserve the Union. Freeing the slaves was incidental in that process. He said so himself

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”

“If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”

“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”

And long after Lincoln was dead, the Federal government proved itself to be one of the most racist, genocidal, and imperialistic regimes in the history of the world, as they marched westward, brutally subjugating every native tribe they came across, before entering the 20th century as the world’s preeminent superpower. In this regard, the American flag is stained with more innocent blood than the Confederate flag ever was.

As for the notion that this flag is a treasonous banner, so is the American flag, a symbol that was born during the Revolutionary War.

And what of the fact that it was a symbol admired by white supremacists for decades? Well, there’s another flag that racists have often called their own.

Make no mistake though, I’m not suggesting you go out and burn the American flag. If you think that, then you’ve missed the point. All I’m saying, is that’s hypocritical to hate the Confederate flag if you love the American flag.

When it comes to symbols, and these flags are symbolic figures, is that they mean different things to different people. Everyone who waves the American flag sees something unique in it. They all see the America thatthey want to live in, and they disregard the awful actions that have been carried out in its name.

The Confederate flag is no different. While it has been and still is a symbol that is admired by racists, I would wager that there are more non-racist Southerners who carry it. For them, it’s simply an undeniable part of their heritage; a symbol that marks a bloody milestone in their history, which has set them apart from the rest of America.

So please, if you think that the Confederate flag is solely the domain of people like Dylann Roof, I implore you to think again. It’s just a symbol, and like all symbols, it means many different things, to many different people, and those meanings will continue to change in ways we can’t imagine, long after we’re all in the ground. Quit getting hung up on what this symbol originally stood for, and recognize what it means to people today.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/in-defense-of-the-confederate-flag_062015

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5 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Chorus: Our Dixie forever, she's never at a loss Down with the eagle and up with the cross. We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again. Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom.

And "Down with the eagle and up with the cross" is obviously about flags because the flag of the United States had an eag....

Waitaminnit...

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5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And "Down with the eagle and up with the cross" is obviously about flags because the flag of the United States had an eag....

Waitaminnit...

She is referring to the state flags each regular company carried along with the national flag - but yeah ... apparently she doesn't even know how major heraldic things like flags were called ... - er wait - what was she trying to convince us again?

Edited by Fionalein

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1 hour ago, MirandaBowers said:

Holy smokes some of you guys are serious history intellectuals :S

We have no life :)

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For what it's worth, I've looked up "Southern Cross" in the Oxford English Dictionary.   All their references are to either the constellation, to its reproduction on national flags, and to various countries in the southern hemisphere  described as "the land of the Southern Cross" (Brazil and South Africa, as well as Australia and New Zealand).

I'm tempted to suggest, in order to avoid confusion between flags bearing crosses and saltires, that if people must have an alternative name for the battle flag of the defeated side in the American Civil War, "the losers' cross" might be more appropriate.

 

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Confederate Flag Controversy History

 
by Borgna Brunner
The 'Southern Cross'

The "Southern Cross"

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

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5 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Likely it's just revisionist history. As the battle flag has taken a hit in the past few years people who see symbolism in it have searched for a "nicer name".

Being referred to as the Southern Cross has been going on for more than a few years, circa early 1900s. Around a hundred years, give or take.

http://www.civilwar.com/resources/313-flags/150182-confederate-flag-history.html

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

Being referred to as the Southern Cross has been going on for more than a few years, circa early 1900s. Around a hundred years, give or take.

Fair enough then. :D It's good to learn the confederates have done this.

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1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm tempted to suggest, in order to avoid confusion between flags bearing crosses and saltires, that if people must have an alternative name for the battle flag of the defeated side in the American Civil War, "the losers' cross" might be more appropriate.

I've learnt a lot to day about it... as none of this is taught to us in our schools. What surprised me was this Battle Flag was originally the Saltire on a white field with a red stripe, although i didn't find what year they cropped it to remove the white field and retain the saltire only. bah.

White flags have a clear meaning in battle.

Edited by Callum Meriman

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7 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I've learnt a lot to day about it... as none of this is taught to us in our schools. What surprised me was this Battle Flag was originally the Saltire on a white field with a red stripe, although i didn't find what year they cropped it to remove the white field and retain the saltire only. bah.

White flags have a clear meaning in battle, and the confederates did lose. So could we could keep calling the loser's flag "The Surrender Flag"? 

Surrender is a solid white flag with no other colors or embellishments.

https://www.history.com/news/when-did-the-white-flag-become-associated-with-surrender

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Thanks, but that doesn't really help.

It tells us that the flag 

Quote

 is also called the "rebel", "Southern Cross, or "Dixie" flag, and is often incorrectly referred to as the "Stars and Bars" (the actual "Stars and Bars" is the First National Flag, which used an entirely different design).

and also that 

Quote

Some hate groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

But it doesn't tell us what I'm interested in, which is when people started calling it the Southern Cross.   It's often, apparently, called the "Stars and Bars" by people who don't know any better, which is presumably not a contemporary usage.   So I'm wondering if people at the time called it the "Southern Cross" or if that's something that came later.    The article tells us that officially it was referred to as a "saltire" rather than as a "cross" but that some people at the time did describe it as "St Andrew's Cross," but it doesn't tell us when people first called it a "Southern Cross."

With the help of the Oxford English Dictionary, I can point to a source from 1855 that describes the flag used by the Australian gold miners in the Eureka Rebellion of 1854 as the "Southern Cross":

Quote

1855   R. Carboni Eureka Stockade xxxvii. 50   There is no flag in old Europe half so beautiful as the ‘Southern Cross’ of the Ballaarat miners.

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/276040?redirectedFrom=Southern+Cross#eid

I'm wondering when the earliest available reference to the Battle Flag of the CSA as the "Southern Cross" dates from.

Theeurekaflag.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm wondering when the earliest available reference to the Battle Flag of the CSA as the "Southern Cross" dates from.

An interesting search, most of the websites that list the Battle Flag as Southern Cross only seem to do it without original citation. They all reference each other of course, in many cases using the exact same words. I wonder if the USA have a source holding scanned and OCR'd searchable newspapers, like Australia's Trove? Finding the term in the newspapers would be a good citation.

Here is the earliest printed reference to the Australian version (2 December 1854) scanned from The Argus, a newspaper of the time. 

c27bd160252bc8edfed17c7e4d2c4400.thumb.png.31fd72294ff46e6d42aaf058c72bc9cd.png

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1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

 

Thanks, but that doesn't really help.

It tells us that the flag 

and also that 

But it doesn't tell us what I'm interested in, which is when people started calling it the Southern Cross.   It's often, apparently, called the "Stars and Bars" by people who don't know any better, which is presumably not a contemporary usage.   So I'm wondering if people at the time called it the "Southern Cross" or if that's something that came later.    The article tells us that officially it was referred to as a "saltire" rather than as a "cross" but that some people at the time did describe it as "St Andrew's Cross," but it doesn't tell us when people first called it a "Southern Cross."

With the help of the Oxford English Dictionary, I can point to a source from 1855 that describes the flag used by the Australian gold miners in the Eureka Rebellion of 1854 as the "Southern Cross":

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/276040?redirectedFrom=Southern+Cross#eid

I'm wondering when the earliest available reference to the Battle Flag of the CSA as the "Southern Cross" dates from.

Theeurekaflag.jpg

1861.

Confederacy's First Battle Flag, The: The Story of the Southern Cross

Scroll down to the page below the photo of Jefferson Davis' inauguration. You'll see a quote from the Charleston Daily Courier referring to the battle flag as the "Southern Cross". The newspaper article was dated February 15, 1861.

Or buy the book and read it. :D

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seems from the reading that Selene points at, the Southern Cross flag was a whole other different flag design. And the designer of the Battle Flag referred to his design as a saltire and not a cross. Saltire being heraldic, cross being religious, so saltire it was

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30 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

1861.

Confederacy's First Battle Flag, The: The Story of the Southern Cross

Scroll down to the page below the photo of Jefferson Davis' inauguration. You'll see a quote from the Charleston Daily Courier referring to the battle flag as the "Southern Cross". The newspaper article was dated February 15, 1861.

Awesome!

This bit is amazing. (I love history, I really do)

677ca79d5d4a613b0a87aecb98c755b2.png.c34c79bed967dd0e901136e661584786.png

So, the Confederate Southern Cross isn't southern for the southern states as one would assume.... It's the southern cross for the constellation of stars in the Southern Hemisphere!

Who were these "young ladies of Charleston" I wonder!

Edited by Callum Meriman
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Placing this here as it is relevent, I think. These are the 7 stars of the constellation. Something Aussie/New Zealand, and I imagine South African kids learn in school

1772429168_download(62).jpeg.6aa1f6e6bf8d2b59823bbd4575a141c3.jpeg

Used by sailors for centuries as it points to true south.

Edited by Callum Meriman
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2 hours ago, ellestones said:

seems from the reading that Selene points at, the Southern Cross flag was a whole other different flag design. And the designer of the Battle Flag referred to his design as a saltire and not a cross. Saltire being heraldic, cross being religious, so saltire it was

And yet the design is based on the National Flag of Scotland, a St Andrews Cross.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

So regardless of proper heraldry designations, it would be called colloquially a cross flag, ie the Southern Cross.

I'm not even sure why everyone is getting bogged down with the name or when it was first used.

 

Edited by Phorumities
added a link

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So anyway, it doesn't matter if 100,000 racists use the flag for racist purposes. 

That in no way proves that  I use the flag for racist purposes.

To assume I do so is simply prejudice on your part.

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3 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I'm not even sure why everyone is getting bogged down with the name or when it was first used.

 

Hmmm - maybe because you challenged us to name it, and the answer you gave doesn't seem to correspond with history?

I'm sure at some point during the Late Civil War of Northern Aggression Between The States Unpleasantness somebody in the South called the Confederate Battle Flag the Southern Cross because it's the sort of melodramatic name a newspaper writer would like, but the citations/articles you give (and most of your "I think for myself" talking points about the war) have connections with the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which wasn't founded until thirty years after.

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7 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Confederate Flag Controversy History

 
by Borgna Brunner
The 'Southern Cross'

The "Southern Cross"

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

Believe it or not, on the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, there were national celebrations and remembrances. It wasn't ignored at all like on the 150th. Perhaps on the 200th anniversary,  sanity will have been restored and we can all remember this time in our history, and not pretend that it didn't happen.

It's a sad commentary on our times when people are shamed into ignoring their own past.

Edited by Phorumities
added a line

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