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13 minutes ago, VesperBloodwing Parx said:

But Lindens, please keep in mind that as niche as furry stuff is

Very niche but it brings in the money in droves. I doubt many other communities on SL makes LL as much money through sales.

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giphy.gif

 

Hey folks! So first off, I would like to thank you all for your feedback regarding this. As we all know, Marketplace stuff can be pretty complex and a bit messy when it comes to categories and we're always open to feedback on how to make it a better experience for everyone, for both creators and buyers.

To also clarify, my team does not suspend accounts for items that may have been flagged for being in an incorrect category. When we receive flags for a listing we review them for the reason they were flagged, such as incorrect categories, and go from there to decide if the item is unlisted with a suggested category provided. To add onto what Tommy mentioned before, if we unlist an item from a flag we receive it's not to abuse the merchant, but to enforce pre-existing Marketplace policies to try and create some order in the chaos that is the Marketplace.

With that said, if the addition of some other categories would help alleviate the issue of items being flagged for not only merchants but for us as well (because hooo-boy reviewing pages and pages of flags can be tedious and very time consuming!) we definitely want to support that feedback. However, the addition of categories is not something my team handles, so I encourage you to please voice any feedback or suggestions  for anything involving new categories or additions to the Marketplace in JIRA *or* in the Web User Group :)

This thread has definitely opened up some interesting discussions on our end and I look forward to seeing where this discussion leads, and learning more about the topic in general.

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@Kristin Linden

That post is appreciated, but as many on this forum have already mentioned, we've addressed these issues on Jira, and it appears that this same issue has been mentioned -several- times on Jira in the past with the same issues being brought up. This method of adding more marketplace listing categories seems like the absolute best fix, as it would help content creators, and, as you mentioned, the Lindens themselves. It's upsetting that your team is not in charge of, nor has a hand in this, and rather odd since it does indeed affect you guys. If I may ask, then, is there something we can do to really press for  those over at JIRA to consider finally putting the category expansions into affect? We've made our posts and given our feedback in detail. The waiting game is fine, I know this will take some time for those over at JIRA to review, but in the mean time, what should I be doing as a content creator who is getting flagged in such high volumes, especially on items that are indeed listed under the categories that Lindens are suggesting?

 

6 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

To also clarify, my team does not suspend accounts for items that may have been flagged for being in an incorrect category. When we receive flags for a listing we review them for the reason they were flagged, such as incorrect categories, and go from there to decide if the item is unlisted with a suggested category provided. To add onto what Tommy mentioned before, if we unlist an item from a flag we receive it's not to abuse the merchant, but to enforce pre-existing Marketplace policies to try and create some order in the chaos that is the Marketplace.

This at least gives me some form of  relief, as I am nervous about relisting an item and being banned  for listing it again under the right category. I am here. I am listening. I want to comply, but I also want to make sure that my shop is staying up and running and that my customers can find my product, and that I don't have to stress so much about having another day in which I have 20+ items of my inventory being randomly flagged and taken down. 

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2 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

giphy.gif

 

Hey folks! So first off, I would like to thank you all for your feedback regarding this. As we all know, Marketplace stuff can be pretty complex and a bit messy when it comes to categories and we're always open to feedback on how to make it a better experience for everyone, for both creators and buyers.

To also clarify, my team does not suspend accounts for items that may have been flagged for being in an incorrect category. When we receive flags for a listing we review them for the reason they were flagged, such as incorrect categories, and go from there to decide if the item is unlisted with a suggested category provided. To add onto what Tommy mentioned before, if we unlist an item from a flag we receive it's not to abuse the merchant, but to enforce pre-existing Marketplace policies to try and create some order in the chaos that is the Marketplace.

With that said, if the addition of some other categories would help alleviate the issue of items being flagged for not only merchants but for us as well (because hooo-boy reviewing pages and pages of flags can be tedious and very time consuming!) we definitely want to support that feedback. However, the addition of categories is not something my team handles, so I encourage you to please voice any feedback or suggestions  for anything involving new categories or additions to the Marketplace in JIRA *or* in the Web User Group :)

This thread has definitely opened up some interesting discussions on our end and I look forward to seeing where this discussion leads, and learning more about the topic in general.

Thank you Kristen.

 

However I would like to point out that if you trawl back through JIRA you will find loads of submissions of this type asking for roughly the same thing... more categories and subcategories for MP furry creators to sell their product (some worded better than others). So this isn't a new idea or a new problem.

When the MP started the SL furry community wasnt as big and because of the lack of things like mesh at the time there wasnt exactly a huge amount you could do with sculpties so it wasnt that big of an issue. But now the community has grown and the building tools have become better then suddenly you have a much bigger problem. Just do a quick search for kemono or utilizator and you will see just how many mods there are for that which would suddenly clutter up whole sub-categories of the MP. However if you do a quick search for furry pants then you will see how things will get lost in the clothing categories due to low numbers which is bad for creators because most furries browse to buy their stuff in order to compare and if you cant be seen in the same place as your competitor or they have to spend hours looking through ripped jeans in order to find the specifically meshed, sized, positioned and rigged pants shape clothing (which I will point out again Dakota has described as being a furry accessory for jewelry because of those very reasons but because it is clothing or clothing shaped then it has to go into clothing) that might look even semi-decent then you are going to loose customers.

And as is happening now when we get bumped into traditionally human realms of the MP we get reported for false listing because it is furry... do you really want to have thousands more reports to go through? Vesper has already had 20+ such false reports in one day and she is a very small sized seller so imagine that 100fold for a bigger store every single week if not day when it is busy then multiply that by a bunch more stores.

 

So please just pass on a notice or something to the team dealing with JIRA's and tell thiem that this is an issue and to look at the demand from previous JIRA's that have been closed and ignored.

 

Also how do you access the webuser group? I have never heard of that.

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Just been notified by a friend that most of his store has been flagged. Literally all he sells is furry heads. The most furry of accessories. If those dont belong in the furry accessories category then what does? Yes it's mesh, yes it's mod/copy etc etc so then it should be Cosmetic Enhancements as stated by Dakota because it changes the look of an existing avatar but creators useit for making mods however it isnt full perm so it isnt a creators tool. BUT THE MAJORITY OF THINGS MADE FOR FURRIES ARE MESH AND FULL PERMS BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS A SCULPTY AND YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO MODIFY IT OR GIVE IT TO SOMEONE TO MODIFY FOR YOU SO EVERYTHING ARGUABLY IN AVATAR ACCESSORIES SHOULDNT BE IN AVATAR ACCESSORIES

So which one does he pick? It's not really cosmetic like a bit of make up because a head is a dramatic body change but its not strictly a creator tool because anybody can slap on a texture bought from a 3rd party to customise it.

This again is a furry accessory because as stated by Dakota it is specifically designed for a furry avatar just like the jewelry example.

 

 

Can we please stop flagging obviously furry stuff that is not a complete avatar until a definite judgement can be made that is not based on a clearly out of date ruleset made for the MP years ago when things like this couldnt even be made?

 

@Kristen Linden

@Tommy Linden

@Dakota Linden

@Callum Meriman

Edited by Till Vaher
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15 minutes ago, Till Vaher said:

Just been notified by a friend that most of his store has been flagged.

It's starting to sound like some kind of MP-griefer. Which is bad for you creators, your customers AND the Lindens. Sheesh.

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1 hour ago, Kristin Linden said:

, the addition of categories is not something my team handles, so I encourage you to please voice any feedback or suggestions  for anything involving new categories or additions to the Marketplace in JIRA *or* in the Web User Group :)

this is nuts if it is as you say

is insane that the team responsible for the marketplace is not also responsible for determining what the categories are. Is like a RL department store assigning store layout and product placement to the plumbing maintenance group

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11 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

It's starting to sound like some kind of MP-griefer. Which is bad for you creators, your customers AND the Lindens. Sheesh.

If it is a griefer then why havent they picked up on it. But even then why are they still defending that our products are being flagged and should be moved. If they acknowledge that there is a problem with the current system then why do the JIRA's keep getting thrown out?

 

If it is a griefer it should be easy to spot around 50+ items from 3 shops (and more from those that we dont know) being mass flagged by one person. But if it is a Linden going on an OCD clean up then questions should be raised as to why they are only flagging some items and not a whole shop of similar products.  But if it is a Linden telling us to move our products to another category they should be protected from false flagging from others as incorrectly categorised or they should just endorse the JIRA (and the many just like it for the exact same reason) to be approved and then if it is approved they should stop bumping genuine products from the Furry Accessories sub category until the website ammendments are made.

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45 minutes ago, Till Vaher said:

Can we please stop flagging obviously furry stuff that is not a complete avatar until a definite judgement can be made that is not based on a clearly out of date ruleset made for the MP years ago when things like this couldnt even be made?

Dude, stop the tagging storm now, you are as bad as the person flagging these items with that spam. (1) It only needs to be done once. (2) wft do I have to do with it?

Typical bloody furry drama.

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1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

Dude, stop the tagging storm now, you are as bad as the person flagging these items with that spam. (1) It only needs to be done once. (2) wft do I have to do with it?

Typical bloody furry drama.

You're obviously in with the LL MP team, as you've shown in your replies, so maybe he thought you could bring it to their attention or had a way to contact them directly

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Just now, Braelynn Darkstone said:

You're obviously in with the LL MP team, as you've shown in your replies, so maybe he thought you could bring it to their attention or had a way to contact them directly

ROFL! seriously, ROFL.

Guys... listen. You made your point. You had some senior Lindens note you. You have an accepted Jira.

Now, stop the histronics and furry drama. It's going to be looked at

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1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

ROFL! seriously, ROFL.

Guys... listen. You made your point. You had some senior Lindens note you. You have an accepted Jira.

Now, stop the histronics and furry drama. It's going to be looked at

And we will continue making our point until the issue is resolved and some actions are taken. For many creators, this is our livelihood and our items being constantly flagged is detrimental.

 

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1 minute ago, Braelynn Darkstone said:

And we will continue making our point until the issue is resolved and some actions are taken.

Just like you guys have now lost *all* my sympathy with this un-necessary furry drama...

by labouring the point when it's been acknowledged you could also lose all sympathy with the Lab, and your jira will go into the "slow pile".

I'm out of this thread. Listen to my advice or not.

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2 hours ago, Till Vaher said:

Naughty Bits (you go look at the genitals section and tell me with a straight face that a giant horse dong belongs with a human one)

That made me chuckle...

I feel like there has been a lot of constructive discussion here already, but I’ll throw in my two cents even if I echo others.  

I’m a creator on the platform. I almost exclusively design and sell heads for furries. I too have recently been hit with waves of items being delisted due to, what I would call, false flags. Previously this occurred on roughly one item a week, but today I saw that half of my store was delisted. ?

I’m sure a lot of people are wondering “why now?” especially since some of our items have lived in the furry accessories category for years, for example my first head was listed in 2012 and still lives in that category.

I think it is important for furry related items to remain in their own category to make it easier for furries to find what they’re looking for. I’d also like to point out the unfortunate fact that furry things do make some people uncomfortable, limiting exposure to these individuals would hopefully result in less flags.

I’m not entirely sure where my heads fit going forward. The email I received from my flags say they should go under “Avatar Components > Cosmetic Enhancements”. I’ll comply, but I’m thinking that they’ll be flagged there too.

Maybe in the interim LL allows furry content creators to leave their items under the Furry accessories. Once additional categories have been placed elsewhere, we can update our listings then?

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There's clearly a troll (or multiple) targeting furry creators, exploiting the fact that almost nothing actually belongs in the Furry Accessories category. It especially has to be a troll given that some creators have had their content flagged again after it's been relisted in a more appropriate category. ?

I started a Jira last month that was rejected, maybe because I was too specific in the categories wanted? But I'm happy that one of the other Jiras has been accepted and we might get some progress with this problem. It's not right to crowd everything in a single category, and it's not right to have it all spread out with human content either, where it won't get found or gets in the way of standard users looking for content.

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what i don't understand: why are products being delisted if they are indeed in the correct category as instructed by Lindens themselves?? Sure angry humans can flag them because they think furry items don't belong in those categories, it does still take a Linden to delist them!! If the product is listed in the right category as instructed by Lindens, then a Linden reviewing a wrong flag should just ignore it, not delist again?? :S

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20 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

what i don't understand: why are products being delisted if they are indeed in the correct category as instructed by Lindens themselves?? Sure angry humans can flag them because they think furry items don't belong in those categories, it does still take a Linden to delist them!! If the product is listed in the right category as instructed by Lindens, then a Linden reviewing a wrong flag should just ignore it, not delist again?? :S

The answer is quite simple, logical and one that has always been present: Any action taken - be it an Abuse Report being looked at by the Governance Team or even a flagged item on the Marketplace - is up to the sole discretion of the responding Linden.

Some of these actions have later been overturned - usually in cases of Governance or similar - while others stand as is. When it comes to the flags for the Marketplace, it is very likely that no record of the action or response is kept once the reviewing Linden has taken action, beyond what is logged in that reviewing Linden's files. In short: Category recommendations will vary depending on what the responding Linden believes the proper placement for the item in question is.

There is not nor has ever been a unified thought on what items go where - be it among employees of Linden Lab or among Second Life's user base.

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Now, my own thoughts on a smattering of the things brought up in this thread - one I have ignored until now simply because I had hoped saner, more level headed minds would prevail.

The assumption and assertion that a Linden is somehow behind any of this is .... false. Period. You would know and understand this if a bit of thought was given to the whole thing and if you'd been around long enough to watch the company grow, shrink, change ..... They have always had a hands off approach, not acting until a report crosses their inbox or - in the early years when many actually roamed Second Life - they came across it directly.

No amount of assertion otherwise will change that - at all.

This notion that Furries require specialized categorization in the Marketplace is .... questionable at best. As is the apparent bending on this by Linden Lab.

Unless they plan on further expanding all of the Fantasy entries into their own Categories - a monumental task, given the extreme diversity of Fantasy Races - then there is no need whatsoever for there to be many more Categories added. The existing ones should suffice.

The crux of the problem is - being brutally honest - contained in my post prior to this: There is no unified consensus even among Lindens as to where some items should go. That needs to change.

An untextured head? It's an Avatar Component, not an Accessory and certainly not a completed Avatar or some such. No need for a different category - at all.

Same honestly for a textured head.

Mods ... are a wee bit trickier, yes.

At the end of the day though, we do not need more Categories specially designated for specific Fantasy avatars. I was honestly among those who almost slammed my head into the nearest wall when I saw some of those categories go in - the Slippery Slope had begun.

And yes, this from someone who spends most of his Second Life time as either an Anthropomorphic Fox or Kitsune.

Perhaps it is my physical age, perhaps it is my mental age .... I see the way some have responded in this thread and it honestly makes me want to grab a newspaper and start swatting a few people. Some of you are acting like children, some are a bit more reasoned but still refuse to listen ....

And at the end of the day, many Furries sit and wonder why it seems so much vitriol is aimed at the fandom: The answer is dead simple and a good example of it can be found in this very thread. Kudos if you figure out the answer.

I cannot believe I forgot to state this so editing this post to add in the following: The only Linden Lab employees you'll find responding on any of the various Forum categories will always be designated. They will utilize accounts marking them as Linden Lab Employees. Thus far I have yet to see exceptions to this so anyone making the assumption that anyone responding to a thread that is not clearly marked as a Linden is somehow a Lab employee or some other such nonsense ... 

Well I think most understand where that was going.

Edited by Solar Legion
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Not a single Linden, but several with different ideas.

It can be frustrating and a bit infuriating if A Linden tells you your pants for furries got flagged because they are clothing and you should be tagging them clothing, not furry and then next day Another Linden will tell you they got flagged because you should tag them furry not clothing...

That is downright silly, ...

...and I hope @A Linden @Another Linden don't exist =^.^=

If that is what's happening @Linden Lab please get some internal consensus into the MP team at your next Joure Fixe.

PS: while you're at it we really could need a full animal (a.k.a. ferals) accessoires category ...

Edited by Fionalein
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13 hours ago, Till Vaher said:

Also how do you access the webuser group? I have never heard of that.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_User_Group

A complete list of all Linden User groups is here

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

You may also want to attend the next Governance user group.

Edited by Whirly Fizzle
Fixed link

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4 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

And at the end of the day, many Furries sit and wonder why it seems so much vitriol is aimed at the fandom: 

In-world, is Furries are targeted by spam messages a lot, by furry haters spouting off about autism, etc. So yes, hatred toward furries is real in Second Life. I can definitely see someone reporting furry MP listings for “fun”. The OP just didn’t know it wasn’t the Lindens.

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24 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In-world, is Furries are targeted by spam messages a lot, by furry haters spouting off about autism, etc. So yes, hatred toward furries is real in Second Life. I can definitely see someone reporting furry MP listings for “fun”. The OP just didn’t know it wasn’t the Lindens.

But if you can ping pong report items and the MP team is actually delisting those requests they are unknowingly helping in abuse because they are abused themselves, ...

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27 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In-world, is Furries are targeted by spam messages a lot, by furry haters spouting off about autism, etc. So yes, hatred toward furries is real in Second Life. I can definitely see someone reporting furry MP listings for “fun”. The OP just didn’t know it wasn’t the Lindens.

I did not say there is no hatred toward Furries.

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6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

I did not say there is no hatred toward Furries.

I agree you didn’t..but you implied there is “reason” for it. My post showed example of “no reason”.

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