Abuse by Linden Employee

[Braelynn Darkstone]

There's a LL employee mass flagging all furry items put into the furry accessories, regardless if it's a furry accessory. Such as armor for a feral furry avatar, or eyes specifically fit to a furry head. It's not only myself that's getting flagged, many furry creators are having this issue. Several of us have contacted LL by submitting a ticket, and this same LL employee has replied to all of us and replying with the same generic response. But giving this examples of why there is a furry accessories category; because furry accessories don't fit normal avatars. This is the definition of all furry products. They do not fit human avatars or products. They are suggesting to put furry clothing for a specific furry avatar into the unisex clothing section. It's not unisex clothing, there are male and female options usually and for furry avatars and furry parts.

Furry customers, for the most part, only shop in the furry accessories section for mods, clothing, eyes and addon parts. This is the only furry section creators can use to display their furry products, unless it's a full furry avatar, there is a section for that. If we're forced to put our furry products in human categories, where furries have to sift through hundreds of thousands of products to find their niche furry item or have humans having to sift through furry items they have no need of, it's going to cause businesses to lose sales. And if businesses lose sales, Linden Labs loses sales. Because they no longer get the MP percentage cut, or the Linden Exchange percentage cut because creators are no longer making enough money. And why now? We've been using this category for many years now and all of a sudden this one Linden, who is a furry, decides we can no longer use it for our products.

I've just had this product flagged; Eyes for furry heads. And another content creator I know just had this flagged; digi-grade clothing for furry avatars. Having these items in a non-furry category will cause unwanted sales. If a human sees these products and purchases them, but does not know or realize they are specifically for furries (I've even had this happen IN the furry category) than that will cause bad reviews.

This can only lead to confusion, loss of sales and more false flagging from humans who see furry items and believe they are in the wrong category.

[Callum Meriman]

10 minutes ago, Braelynn Darkstone said:

There's a LL employee mass flagging all furry items put into the furry accessories, regardless if it's a furry accessory.

No, it's a normal resident flagging them. The Linden is just acting on the reports, and the reports are correct.

No matter what you think, putting everything into furry accessories is incorrect. It's messy and will make things impossible to find.

Put the digitigrade pants, into pants. Mark them as "for digitigrade legs only" Exactly like this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Apricot-Paws-meshDigi-Pants-Brights-Fatpack/2908259

The letter.. well, it's a form letter. The Lab won't write something individually for every violation.

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

BUG-225613 - I was told by Dakota Linden to Request new Marketplace Catergories

BUG-225701 -  We need more Furry marketplace categories.

BUG-225702 - More Marketplace categories for furry content

[Love Zhaoying]

Pants just for Furries?

[Phorumities]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Pants just for Furries?

Do furries even wear pants? I thought they were always sky clad

[Till Vaher]

1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

Put the digitigrade pants, into pants. Mark them as "for digitigrade legs only" Exactly like this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Apricot-Paws-meshDigi-Pants-Brights-Fatpack/2908259

meshDigi Pants is the name of the actual item, not a warning or description.

Also it is impossible for it to be a normal Resident as 30 or so items are getting flagged in one instance so it is a Linden having an OCD clearout.

FYI Apricot Paws (the creator of that link) is also a "victim" of this which is why they are in that category.

But if you want to have to trawl through a few thousand freshly relisted furry products before you get to what you want in a traditionally human set of categories then feel free not to complain about that.

What furry creators are getting in a fuss about is that huge swathes of their shops are getting flagged, delisted or deleted because they are putting accessories for furries in the furry accessories category. That sales are falling because their target consumers are not browsing upon their items in a smaller furry category because they are lost in the sea of normal human items or clothing.

 

For example a set of furry legs are being flagged and suggested to be put in " Avatar Components > Cosmetic Enhancements " but then another set of legs by the same creator and for the same body will be flagged as " Building and Object Components > Mesh Creator Tools " when they are clearly just furry accessories because they are accessories to a normal body to make them furry and not a simple enhancement or a tool for creators as they are targeted at everyday buyers.

 

The simple thing would be to just have more Furry or Fantasy categories for better sorting.

Once of the examples given by Dakota Linden was that ear rings for furries should be put in the Furry Accessories category as they need to be positioned and sized and attached differently than normal ear rings but if we were to apply their logic that it can be put into a different category it should also be put in the Jewelry category.

So why not have Fantasy/Furry as a category then have subcategories to sort all this out?

 

 

My point being is that this Linden who is cleaning house is having double standards and is flagging items that are clearly furry and only work on furry avatars/mods and pushing them into categories that don't relate to them causing problems for furry customers and humans who don't want to see it or might buy it by accident/flag it anyway believeing it is in the wrong category after relisting. But also not having consistency in their decisions for similar products as to where they should belong.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Till Vaher said:

So why not have Fantasy/Furry as a category then have subcategories to sort all this out?

A Jira suggesting that would be the correct way to go.

Personally I would put it under pants > digitigrade or pants > furry so that the categories there were "male, female, unisex, furry"

You can do a jira here: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/Dashboard.jspa

[Till Vaher]

Problem being is that this subject has been put in Jira's constantly and keeps getting turned down despite being the obvious solution to the problem.

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings!

The only items that should be in the Avatar Accessories sub categories are accessories, such as jewelry, wings, hair, etc., 

Furry accessories is a separate sub-category for Avatar Accessories for similar items designed specifically for Furry Avatars. 

Skins, eyes, legs, clothing, weapons, textures, etc., should be in the respective sub-categories for those types of items. 

If an item is a full perm Mesh item created to allow others to add the items to their own builds that they are creating, then the most appropriate category is the Building and Object Components - Mesh Creators Tools

If the item is a completed, aka "after market" item designed for avatar owners to change the look of their existing avatar, then the listing should be placed into the Avatar Components - Cosmetic Enhancements category.  

Items can be appropriate in more than 1 category, however, only Avatar Accessories should be placed into the Avatar Accessories sub-categories. 

This information is stated in the Marketplace Listing Guidelines, located here:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#category-guidelines

"Select the most appropriate category for the item"

Edited October 26, 2018 by Dakota Linden

[Dakota Linden]

6 minutes ago, Till Vaher said:

Problem being is that this subject has been put in Jira's constantly and keeps getting turned down despite being the obvious solution to the problem.

If you have created a Jira Ticket requesting a new, specific, category, and it was closed as something that will not be done, please provide me with the Jira Ticket number and I will be happy to escalate the issue.

 

[Callum Meriman]

Seems it's on the list at least.

[Till Vaher]

Eyes for furry heads that only work in furry heads - Furry Accessory

Legs made for a body to make the avatar look furry - Furry Accessory

Clothing that is generic - Clothing

Clothing that only fits Digi Legs for furries - Furry Accessory because it isnt really an item of clothing... its more than likely a specifically shaped meshwork for furries (as per the example given by you for jewelry because it is a specific size, shape and location... make up your mind)

Weapons - Weapons (dumb example)

Textures - This is debatable because a texture of bricks could go into building materials, likewise the texture of fluff could be seen as a solely furry purchase and an accessory to be worn by furries... arguably depending Furry Accessories depending on the texture

 

Skins that make you look tanned or spotty or a different race -  Skins

Skins that make you look like a cat - Furry Accessories

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Till Vaher

[Braelynn Darkstone]

14 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings!

The only items that should be in the Avatar Accessories sub categories are accessories, such as jewelry, wings, hair, etc., 

Furry accessories is a separate sub-category for Avatar Accessories for similar items designed specifically for Furry Avatars. 

Skins, eyes, legs, clothing, weapons, textures, etc., should be in the respective sub-categories for those types of items. 

If an item is a full perm Mesh item created to allow others to add the items to their own builds that they are creating, then the most appropriate category is the Building and Object Components - Mesh Creators Tools

If the item is a completed, aka "after market" item designed for avatar owners to change the look of their existing avatar, then the listing should be placed into the Avatar Components - Cosmetic Enhancements category.  

Items can be appropriate in more than 1 category, however, only Avatar Accessories should be placed into the Avatar Accessories sub-categories. 

This information is stated in the Marketplace Listing Guidelines, located here:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#category-guidelines

"Select the most appropriate category for the item"

 

Creators are now trying to comply with these rules but our items are already being flagged for not being in the furry accessories category because they are furry items.. We cannot relist them in furry accessories and we cannot relist them in the correct categories because if they continue to get flagged, the item will be banned. So please, tell me what we're supposed to do? How can we make a living and income if our items are getting flagged even in what LL dictates as the correct category?..

 

[VesperBloodwing Parx]

So If the flags are indeed happening from resident users and not LL, I want to know what to do about this problem. It is happening to me as well, and now my items that were made for furries, but were LISTED under the appropriate category ( Women's Pants, in this example ) was flagged for being the wrong category. So it sounds like human players are getting upset about the furry items in their category and flagging it.

Dakota, I hope you're still looking at this forum. I was just having a ticket with you about this. I went to Jira and submitted my own reply as well about this. What am I expected to do in this situation now? Where on earth, if not furry accessories, and not women's pants, can I put something like Digi-grade pants?

 

@Dakota Linden

 

Truth be told I'm starting to feel like I'm being harassed. I've sat here all day combating with flags now. I had plans to continue my work today and instead I've had to constantly go back and forth relisting items, some of which were even in the right category to begin with.

Edited October 26, 2018 by VesperBloodwing Parx

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, VesperBloodwing Parx said:

So If the flags are indeed happening from resident users and not LL, I want to know what to do about this problem. It is happening to me as well, and now my items that were made for furries, but were LISTED under the appropriate category ( Women's Pants, in this example ) was flagged for being the wrong category. So it sounds like human players are getting upset about the furry items in their category and flagging it.

Dakota, I hope you're still looking at this forum. I was just having a ticket with you about this. I went to Jira and submitted my own reply as well about this. What am I expected to do in this situation now? Where on earth, if not furry accessories, and not women's pants, can I put something like Digi-grade pants?

You can always page: @Dakota Linden

[VesperBloodwing Parx]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You can always page: @Dakota Linden

Thank you. I'm new to the forum usage, I wasn't aware of that. I'll edit my previous post.

[Till Vaher]

1 minute ago, VesperBloodwing Parx said:

Thank you. I'm new to the forum usage, I wasn't aware of that. I'll edit my previous post.

Dakota is replying and liking on this thread so they are aware but still arguing their decisions in a post above.

Simply put their reply is "I am right and you are wrong"

[Love Zhaoying]

You don’t have to, she’ll see my page!

[Tommy Linden]

Well, this is certainly an interesting thread! I will admit, I do not know very much about the furry community, except that everyone I have met from it thus far, is quite friendly and great to interact with! 

I do not work specifically on the marketplace, this did however prompt me to go on a quest to get some education, and I must say, I never expected it to be such a complex subject. Thanks to my fellow Lindens in a furry chatroom on our chat system (yes, some of us Lindens ARE furries) though for helping to answer some of my questions.

So, I can put some of your fears to rest, we do not go out of our way to personally flag things on the marketplace. We get so many flags from our Residents, that we are always incredibly busy just reviewing those. 

I can also tell you, that we hear you, we are listening to your concerns, and feedback. I know Dakota, as well as myself and others have passed along the feedback for need of additional categories. 

[Till Vaher]

Basically what is happening is that Dakota and other Lindens are flagging hundreds if not thousands of items in Furry Accessories for being "incorrect".

But then when the items are "correctly" listed in respective categories they are being flagged again by residents because they view them as being incorrectly posted in traditionally human categories for being furry related.

What can you do because if you keep putting it back in the same category in either one then your product gets blocked/banned and you loose revenue, keep doing it for multiple items and you can get blocked from the MP or banned.

[VesperBloodwing Parx]

10 minutes ago, Tommy Linden said:

Well, this is certainly an interesting thread! I will admit, I do not know very much about the furry community, except that everyone I have met from it thus far, is quite friendly and great to interact with! 

I do not work specifically on the marketplace, this did prompt me to go on a quest to get some education, and I must say, I never expected it to be such a complex subject. Thanks to my fellow Lindens in a furry chatroom on our chat system (yes, some of us Lindens ARE furries) though for helping to answer some of my questions.

So, I can put some of your fears to rest, we do not go out of our way to personally flag things on the marketplace. We get so many flags from our Residents, that we are always incredibly busy just reviewing those. 

I can also tell you, that we hear, we are listening to your concerns, and feedback. I know Dakota, as well as myself and others have passed along the feedback for need of additional categories. 

I've actually met some of the Lindens who are furries, but are any of them creators? I feel like some sort of insight with a furry creator on your team would be beneficial, as this is quite a problem for the business owners that provide content for the furry  world.  As myself and Braelynn talk more on this issue, I'm starting to wonder if there is some harassment going on with another resident between us, but I am unsure how to actually address this via any sort of ticket, as I don't even know who it could be. 

 

Today ALONE I have had over 20+ items flagged. That is unheard of for me, and some of them WERE on the correct categorization. I am at a loss, but this is important to me to be resolved. I am losing income as these items continue to be flagged and unlisted.

@Tommy Linden

Edited October 26, 2018 by VesperBloodwing Parx

[Becky Nosferatu]

I've been following this for some time, as well. I own Magican Productions. The fact that "furry" must be separated from SL standards and only get one to two categories is frankly rude as hell, imho, because you have like... 5 fantasy categories?

But I digress, this is a new situation. We've been seeing flags (And by We, I mean VesperBloodwing and I, as we both work on the same creator team) for things that just keep coming through. There is NOTHING that seems to make either party happy and it's very detrimental to our businesses and extremely discouraging as a content creator.

We want this stopped. This is blatant harassment and since we have no idea who is doing it, we can't just report the person directly for it. This must be looked at by the Lindens themselves.

[Callum Meriman]

22 minutes ago, VesperBloodwing Parx said:

As myself and Braelynn talk more on this issue, I'm starting to wonder if there is some harassment going on with another resident between us

That's normally the way with these reporting sprees. It's happened before, and it can be a competitor trying to obliterate the competition, or it can someone who is caught up in some drama.

This has Linden attention, the Jira is accepted - which means it will be investigated and talked about in some upcoming meetings, but it's going to take some time. It's the weekend now, and a lot more is happening on top.

It might be possible that @Kristin Lindencan pause (paws) furry MP suspensions for a few days. (Summons her and hides behind a  rock, 'cause her av isn't at all scary, nope, nuh uh)

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[VesperBloodwing Parx]

I'll be keeping an eye on this forum for a bit then. As a  content creator I am extremely concerned,  frustrated, and confused about how to handle this. I thought my first ticket today was going to be a fine way to handle things. As I recall mentioning in my initial ticket, I AM a furry content creator, and even I realize that  the Furry Accessories tab is not really ideal for all content there. But Lindens, please keep in mind that as niche as furry stuff is, it's still very  large and has grown to great lengths over the years. A lot of creators make skins, body attachments and addons, ears, tails, heads, paws, clawed hands, clothing specifically tailored to said furry body attachments and addons as well as furry avatars that are their own mesh rigged bodies...I could sit here and list off things for an hour or more. The category desperately needs expanded upon to prevent issues like this in the future. 

Until the categories can be expanded, I will grit my teeth and place items in the categories suggested to me...but if residents are unhappy about this ( and judging from my flag count today, they clearly are ), then I really am quite stuck.

I may not make  thousands of dollars from my linden income, but I do consider myself to rely on it  for safety in my times of financial needs. Many times has my linden balance saved my household from hunger or medical attention because I was able to withdraw. My sales are important to me, even in the  lower priced items, and I need them to be up and ready for my consumers, as well as conveniently accessed and able to be located. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by VesperBloodwing Parx
editing forgotten words

[Till Vaher]

5 minutes ago, Tommy Linden said:

Well, this is certainly an interesting thread! I will admit, I do not know very much about the furry community, except that everyone I have met from it thus far, is quite friendly and great to interact with! 

I do not work specifically on the marketplace, this did however prompt me to go on a quest to get some education, and I must say, I never expected it to be such a complex subject. Thanks to my fellow Lindens in a furry chatroom on our chat system (yes, some of us Lindens ARE furries) though for helping to answer some of my questions.

So, I can put some of your fears to rest, we do not go out of our way to personally flag things on the marketplace. We get so many flags from our Residents, that we are always incredibly busy just reviewing those. 

I can also tell you, that we hear you, we are listening to your concerns, and feedback. I know Dakota, as well as myself and others have passed along the feedback for need of additional categories. 

Thank you Tommy.

 

It has only taken a cluster fudge of a thread to get some attention to this which has been going on for a very long time.

 

Basically furries get their shapes from crators who make mods. People make textures for these mods to customise the avatar. Other make clothes for mods such as legs etc that will only fit those specific legs and shapes. Heads usually have specific eyes that can't be used with human heads etc etc etc.

 

Another problem is that mods are not the same as complete avatars and then you even get mods for those complete avatars.

The furry market for bodies can basically be described as a candy pick n mix because a handful of avatars, mods, textures and bits will go into it and that isnt even including the clothes or even the HUDS/animations etc required for those body parts to work especially now that bento has come around.

Some but not all Sub-categories with Further Sub-categories should include

Body parts - Heads, Eyes, Digi/Planti Legs, Hands/Paws, Ears, Tails, Wings, Horns , Actual Bodies (but not complete avatars), Other Mods, Feral

Textures/Skins/Shaders - As above

Clothing - Thoeofcourse have their own categories but with this could easily be just a section on it's own

Animations (yes things like ears and tails have their own animations)

Huds (huds are made specifically to cater for animations and textures for furries)

Naughty Bits (you go look at the genitals section and tell me with a straight face that a giant horse dong belongs with a human one)

 

 

To complicate things, such things as nipples (which sell pretty well because of this) when you buy a skin texture some dont have nipples and if you want then you have to buy them seperate especially if you want multiple nips (which also sell well). But under the current way of doing things then where would you put those? Textures, Adult stuff because of their nature or other various places that a thousand different residents flag them for being in incorrectly?

 

My friend above with her Women's pants for digi legs for furries put in the women's pants section get flagged for being in the wrong category despite being in the right category (by your standards) because they are designed specifically for furries.

Our shopjust had a product for a feral avatar (a normal animal body not humanised in shape or form). It was a costume for the Hellhund (dog basically) but there is no other category but furry accessories to fit it because it was body armour for a dog... literally the most furry accessory you could get but yet it has to go in a clothing category now where it will just be flagged by a resident for being incorrectly categorised.