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58 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

misogyny

is not helpful to deliberative discourse when you chuck in words whose meanings have no bearing on your own situation

misogny is the word for contempt of women - all traits of all women. A woman you are not

misandry is the word for contempt of machismo - machismo is a trait of some men. A man you are

i live on a bondage region of people from all around the world who are into dom/sub relationships, and slave auctions also. I get into lots of conversations with random visitors. When a vistor starts chucking words into the conversation that have no relevance to themselves in a chat about themselves then I tend to go umm! ok, this is going nowhere - when after explaining the meaning of the terms they are throwing and yet they still persist with doing it

from your own contributions to this discussion I think you have an over-compensation of machismo. If or when so then most of those of all genders who do give you a hard time inworld - are contemptuous of your displays of machismo. Basically you might want to reflect on what degree does machismo influence your thoughts and words. Perhaps and I think most likely from your writings to date, it appears that this has never occurred to you, or if it has then you may have dismissed it as unfathomable

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On 10/27/2018 at 7:27 PM, OfDragonFire said:

What would you like me to explain, truly? I am listening. 

 

Ok coming back by special request of the OP.

Trans means your sexual identity is in opposition to the gender of your body, I always knew that. 

But, I never knew there was a special term for people who's sexual identity matched their bodies gender.

Now, for everyone else, gender is not some trendy thing that can be divided and divided into as many as is the current fad of the week.

gender has a purely biological, physical  basis and purpose. Male and female. 

Either your mental image of yourself matches your gender or it doesn't, ergo cis and trans. That's all there is, there is nothing else.

There isn't 3 or 10 or 20 genders, there are exactly TWO. Everything else is semantic game playing.

I don't think transgendered people should be attacked or ridiculed or abused in any way. 

But, if for example i'm standing minding my own business and a person walks up to me, she walks like a woman, dresses like a woman, sounds like a woman, I'm not prepared to take any abuse when I say how are you today Ma'am, and she comes back with eff you, I'm a trans man and don't you forget it.

So yes, in Second life, the OP is setting herself up for abuse.

Why is she playing games in here? If shes a man, get a male avatar and be a man, stop playing the martyr.

But no she's on a crusade, and we better not forget it.

 

 

Edited by Phorumities
fixed a sentence
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2 hours ago, Chase01 said:

I didn't see anyone trying to "invalidate your existence and experience" ... Your desire to start a group to give others in your community support is very noble, but you're preaching to the choir. The people that are going to be mean, don't care about who you are or what being trans is all about. The ones that want to learn more about your community (the people in this thread) are the ones supporting you in the way they can.

That is all just wishful thinking. Of course, that is what you should expect, but that isn't always reality.

I didn't say they did, I said it felt like they did.

And I know it is wishful thinking but I could at least work towards making a place where no one feels left out or out of place.

2 hours ago, ellestones said:

is not helpful to deliberative discourse when you chuck in words whose meanings have no bearing on your own situation

misogny is the word for contempt of women - all traits of all women. A woman you are not

misandry is the word for contempt of machismo - machismo is a trait of some men. A man you are

i live on a bondage region of people from all around the world who are into dom/sub relationships, and slave auctions also. I get into lots of conversations with random visitors. When a vistor starts chucking words into the conversation that have no relevance to themselves in a chat about themselves then I tend to go umm! ok, this is going nowhere - when after explaining the meaning of the terms they are throwing and yet they still persist with doing it

from your own contributions to this discussion I think you have an over-compensation of machismo. If or when so then most of those of all genders who do give you a hard time inworld - are contemptuous of your displays of machismo. Basically you might want to reflect on what degree does machismo influence your thoughts and words. Perhaps and I think most likely from your writings to date, it appears that this has never occurred to you, or if it has then you may have dismissed it as unfathomable

If you read my post, you would see that it was in reference to the way people treat women or the people they read as women. I did not say I experience misogyny, though I do but the misogyny I live(d) through is misdirected. I've seen it, the privilege maleness gives you - before I came out, even my doctor who was a woman doubted me constantly, acted like I don't know myself or my best interest. When I came out and she started seeing me as a man, it changed - she started listening to me, my words had more weight, more bearing. 

Though, it wasn't misandry that kept me in a country where I needed my male guardian's permission to leave. It wasn't misandry that forced me to dress in black sheets. It was misogyny. Misdirected, but still misogyny.

Please, show me where I have 'over-compensation of machismo' - maybe I did get angry, but it's my right to be angry at the oppression I face as a trans person.

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Look, I really feel your pain, I really do. I was bullied for being different in public school. However, I am trans myself, and I have never experienced any of the things you said. I actually have people who support me and are there for me. I have a partner, who absolutely adores me, for well, being trans. To me, problems like this, occur on a case by case basis. It shouldn't be happening, but still, these attacks are usually directed at one single person, the individual, that these people do not like. They are wrong yes indeed, but I think if you need help, come to people who are transitioning. I am willing to help you through, these rough times, give some advice, and maybe help you along the way. Just look me up in SL and we can talk. Don't be afraid, I am here to help. :)

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3 hours ago, Phorumities said:

 

Ok coming back by special request of the OP.

Trans means your sexual identity is in opposition to the gender of your body, I always knew that. 

But, I never knew there was a special term for people who's sexual identity matched their bodies gender.

Now, for everyone else, gender is not some trendy thing that can be divided and divided into as many as is the current fad of the week.

gender has a purely biological, physical  basis and purpose. Male and female. 

Either your mental image of yourself matches your gender or it doesn't, ergo cis and trans. That's all there is, there is nothing else.

There isn't 3 or 10 or 20 genders, there are exactly TWO. Everything else is semantic game playing.

I don't think transgendered people should be attacked or ridiculed or abused in any way. 

But, if for example i'm standing minding my own business and a person walks up to me, she walks like a woman, dresses like a woman, sounds like a woman, I'm not prepared to take any abuse when I say how are you today Ma'am, and she comes back with eff you, I'm a trans man and don't you forget it.

So yes, in Second life, the OP is setting herself up for abuse.

Why is she playing games in here? If shes a man, get a male avatar and be a man, stop playing the martyr.

But no she's on a crusade, and we better not forget it.

 

 

I think the problem here is that the definitions of words are starting to change. Gender is no longer used in this sense to mean the biological differences between males and females. It is now being used to describe your sense of being and internal and social identity rather than your physical status. The dictionary definitions are even being updated to reflect this :

"Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones"

Generally what i see now is the word "Sex" being used to describe the physical differences and "Gender" being used to describe as stated above. As society progresses words and their definitions change but that doesn't make it any less confusing for people sometimes.

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5 hours ago, Phorumities said:

 

Ok coming back by special request of the OP.

Trans means your sexual identity is in opposition to the gender of your body, I always knew that. 

But, I never knew there was a special term for people who's sexual identity matched their bodies gender.

Now, for everyone else, gender is not some trendy thing that can be divided and divided into as many as is the current fad of the week.

gender has a purely biological, physical  basis and purpose. Male and female. 

Either your mental image of yourself matches your gender or it doesn't, ergo cis and trans. That's all there is, there is nothing else.

There isn't 3 or 10 or 20 genders, there are exactly TWO. Everything else is semantic game playing.

I don't think transgendered people should be attacked or ridiculed or abused in any way. 

But, if for example i'm standing minding my own business and a person walks up to me, she walks like a woman, dresses like a woman, sounds like a woman, I'm not prepared to take any abuse when I say how are you today Ma'am, and she comes back with eff you, I'm a trans man and don't you forget it.

So yes, in Second life, the OP is setting herself up for abuse.

Why is she playing games in here? If shes a man, get a male avatar and be a man, stop playing the martyr.

But no she's on a crusade, and we better not forget it.

 

 

You are not asking questions, you are knowingly invalidating my identity and gendering me improperly. 

There isn't just two gender, there has never been only two genders - doesn't matter if we are speaking biologically or from a sociological perceptive. 

Trans people have existed around from the dawn of time. People who don't fit in the binary of genders have always existed. And people who don't fit into the biological label of male or female have always existed, as well.

I am a man, I don't have to look or act a certain way to be a man. I don't have to fit into cisnormative ideas of what it means to be a man to be valid. I am comfortable in my gender and comfortable in my masculinity, and there's nothing you or anyone else could say or do to change that.

If you want to learn, there are plenty of resources online. But it is evident you don't, it's evident all you want is to be hateful, and I don't welcome that. 

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2 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

If you want to learn, there are plenty of resources online. But it is evident you don't, it's evident all you want is to be hateful, and I don't welcome that. 

the freedom you claim to be what you want, you deny to others that also want to be what they want?

The constant face slapping and military activism was for me the reason to quit the whole lbgt scene, it turned from a informative activism to a dictatorial movement. YOU WILL instead of "hello we'r here too".

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11 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

Something in the OP's profile does matter, Love, and I'm going to make a gentle correction here: the OP is a man and requests he/him pronouns.

I honestly forgot which they were. 

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Wow, I've been on a bit of an SL break due to RL challenges and popped back today to find I've just missed this huge thread!

I've only read about a quarter of it, and I don't have the time or energy to address the various things that have been said point by point. So, fwiw..

Trans peoples' identities are not up for debate, or a matter of opinion.

We exist.

I exist.

Consider me assembled xx

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22 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

We exist.

I exist.

nobody says you don't  :)

22 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

Trans peoples' identities are not up for debate, or a matter of opinion.

i disagree with the last words, opinions dó matter, but not about being Trans, but how it's handled by some groups.

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8 hours ago, Phorumities said:

gender has a purely biological, physical  basis and purpose. Male and female.

8 hours ago, Phorumities said:

There isn't 3 or 10 or 20 genders, there are exactly TWO. Everything else is semantic game playing.

 

So, what determines whether someone is male or female? What's the criteria that can is used to determine which of these exactly two genders a person is?

The knob on a faucet has exactly two temperatures on it - "hot" and "cold." It doesn't mean that the temperature can't be set anywhere in between, nor does it mean that the temperature of the water is "hot" until you turn the knob one millimeter closer to the "C", when it suddenly becomes "cold."

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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So, I know I am going to get attacked for this question, but seriously, this is me talking here..Does anyone expect any less? 

Why in the name of all that is unholy would you feel the need to tell people you are trans in RL while you are in SL? Unless you think you will be meeting in RL does it really have a single drop of bearing on SL? I mean, if you are MtF trans, get a female av, FtM? get a male av.. Why bother making your av reflect the outer you in RL? Wouldn't you, as a trans person, want to reflect the inner RL you? I mean, hell, I am different on the daily. Human, animal, demon, anthro, furry, toaster, android, and everything in-between. With all trans people put up with in the real world, and I back you all 100% for the crap you deal with, why subject yourselves to it in SL? 

And before anyone jumps too far down my throat, both of my daughters are LGBT and two of my best friends growing up are trans. Neither of them understand this either, both use SL. Both are their inner genders in SL. Hell, my youngest was born the day Mass legalized same sex marriage and she is so damn proud of that.

And seriously folks, we all know that the Cheeto n charge is doing everything he can to remove the hard fought rights of the LGBT community, even after saying  time and time again he is "their great protector." 

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1 hour ago, LexxiXhan said:

Trans peoples' identities are not up for debate, or a matter of opinion.

Now might be a good time to say that you're in the minority view. Most people think you're wrong.

(Obligatory disclaimer that I personally don't think you're wrong.)

More specifically, only ~40% of the US and UK populations believe that gender is not determined at birth. That includes a 50-50 split of the 18-30 age group, so it's not just the "bigoted old people" meme. That percentage is lower across Western Europe, even lower across the rest of the developed world, even lower once you take the entirety of the planet into account. Globally, you're looking at a few percentage points only. And those numbers are all significantly smaller if you change the question to ask about whether gender is binary or on a spectrum.

They don't say this out of some malicious hatred of trans or non-binary people. There's a few people like that, sure, but not 7 billion. With some exceptions, gender and sex have been both interchangeable, binary, and fixed at birth for the vast majority of human history. You are looking to rewrite one of the fundamental assumptions of existence. The sky is blue, water is wet, don't look at the sun, men are men and women are women. That's the status quo, and you are looking to change the status quo. Don't forget that.

Patience and kindness are essential in challenging people to reevaluate their core assumptions about how the world works. Confrontational arrogance about the validity of what is, globally speaking, still just a fringe theory is a perfect way to harden hearts and minds against progress. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, if you go looking for a fight, you'll find one.

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13 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

All that aside, trans people are often ignored and silenced, and it felt like a lot of the people responding just wanted to shut us up - to invalidate our existence and experience. Regardless of where I hang out or what I want, I should receive the most basic of human decency - it is not too much to ask.

 

9 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

I didn't say they did, I said it felt like they did.

It felt to you.

But we didn't.

Look at what happened when you finally bothered to listen to me:

Quote

You are absolutely right in so much of what you said. 

Your expectations of being ignored or silenced or invalidated got in the way of understanding what I and others have been saying all along.

If you do the same thing inworld, your negative expectations will likely colour your interpretations of others' words and actions. You will 'experience' invalidation where it isn't. You will mistake creepy horndog behaviours for transphobia. It will give you a dopamine buzz of self-righteous indignation and self-validation, but it won't reflect reality.

Is that buzz worth making things even harder for yourself?

If you want others to see you as you are and not through the prism of their preconceptions, learn how to see others as we are and not through the prism of your preconceptions. It will make life so much easier.

Edited by Bitsy Buccaneer
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6 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

You are not asking questions, you are knowingly invalidating my identity and gendering me improperly. 

There isn't just two gender, there has never been only two genders - doesn't matter if we are speaking biologically or from a sociological perceptive. 

Trans people have existed around from the dawn of time. People who don't fit in the binary of genders have always existed. And people who don't fit into the biological label of male or female have always existed, as well.

I am a man, I don't have to look or act a certain way to be a man. I don't have to fit into cisnormative ideas of what it means to be a man to be valid. I am comfortable in my gender and comfortable in my masculinity, and there's nothing you or anyone else could say or do to change that.

If you want to learn, there are plenty of resources online. But it is evident you don't, it's evident all you want is to be hateful, and I don't welcome that. 

male, female, cis, trans, thats all there is.

Its not my fault if you can't accept simple facts of nature.

Besides the issue isn't about semantic game playing, its about whether trans people should be able to live their lives free from abuse and be accepted for how they are, and i wholeheartedly suppport both.

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, what determines whether someone is male or female? What's the criteria that can is used to determine which of these exactly two genders a person is?

The knob on a faucet has exactly two temperatures on it - "hot" and "cold." It doesn't mean that the temperature can't be set anywhere in between, nor does it mean that the temperature of the water is "hot" until you turn the knob one millimeter closer to the "C", when it suddenly becomes "cold."

drop their pants and take a look.

if they identify with whats down there, they are cis,  if they don't, they are trans.

Thats all there is.

While its true some some people are born with ambiguous genetalia, i would guess the vast majority of trans people have normal genetalia. When their mind doesn't match their body is where the term "trans sexual" comes from

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10 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

Please, show me where I have 'over-compensation of machismo' - maybe I did get angry, but it's my right to be angry at the oppression I face as a trans person.

your words: "when I was girl I was oppressed. When I was transitioning I was oppressed. Now that I am a man I am oppressed"

at some point you will come to realise that people don't oppress you. Those who do give you a hard time just don't like you as a person, you being the same person at every gender stage of your journey

because machismo - self-entitled, self-victimising, and aggressive with it. And you don't care to be any other way at this time in your life

when other people don't like us for who we are as a person then our gender is immaterial. And given that you have been every gender then your gender is not what people don't like about you

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7 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

You are not asking questions, you are knowingly invalidating my identity and gendering me improperly. 

There isn't just two gender, there has never been only two genders - doesn't matter if we are speaking biologically or from a sociological perceptive. 

Trans people have existed around from the dawn of time. People who don't fit in the binary of genders have always existed. And people who don't fit into the biological label of male or female have always existed, as well.

I am a man, I don't have to look or act a certain way to be a man. I don't have to fit into cisnormative ideas of what it means to be a man to be valid. I am comfortable in my gender and comfortable in my masculinity, and there's nothing you or anyone else could say or do to change that.

If you want to learn, there are plenty of resources online. But it is evident you don't, it's evident all you want is to be hateful, and I don't welcome that. 

I don't think Phorumites is being hateful, if anything quite the opposite. She has stated on several occasions that she supports who you are and your right to be who you are. But, she has her opinions on whether or not she believes that there are more gender definitions than the four she stated. And to sum it down, thinks your being a bit over the top in how your approaching this. There is nothing wrong with that, I wouldn't call it hate. This is what I was talking about in the post I made earlier, the moment you experience an opinion that doesn't align itself with your way of thinking you are immediately jumping on the defensive and throwing out buzzwords and buzzphrases at her and others. Its not like she is sat there saying "Your a snowflake weirdo and I think trans people are weird and your a woman end of..." quite the opposite. SHES ON YOUR SIDE OVER THAT ISSUE. She just doesn't agree with other aspects of the debate.

Edited by chibiusa Ling
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1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

You are looking to rewrite one of the fundamental assumptions of existence. The sky is blue...

It wasn't always...
https://www.dunnedwards.com/colors/specs/posts/the-history-and-science-behind-the-color-blue

And it still isn't...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/briankoberlein/2017/01/11/earths-skies-are-violet-we-just-see-them-as-blue/#216ebe16735f

Both of those articles illustrate different aspects of perception that I believe apply to gender as well. Our perception is colored both by our physical abilities to detect and by our cultural ability to describe, via language. Violet exists, but we see it as a mix of red and blue. I learned this as a child, and have never fully trusted my senses since.

It was more recently that I learned out perception is also affected by the language we use to describe it. Speakers of languages what have more words for "blue" are better able to distinguish shades of it. We know that perception is the product of the brain's processing of sensory input, so it shouldn't surprise us that differences in sensors and differences in brain processing can produces differences in perception. And we all know that differences in brain processing arise from a mix of nature and nurture, or identical twins would think far more identically than they do.

Starting with these two examples of "the sky is blue", it's not hard for me to believe that gender comes in shades that we're not able to recognize, either because we don't have the sensors for it, or haven't got the words to allow our brains to classify the shades we do sense.

If you ask the general population about the prevalence of different sexualities and genders, they vastly overestimate their presence...
https://psmag.com/social-justice/there-arent-as-many-gay-people-as-you-think

Ain't it curious that we simultaneously believe there are only two genders while vastly overestimating the prevalence of evidence to the contrary?

Do any of you really think that humans are rational?

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9 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

drop their pants and take a look.

I sincerely hope you don't go round demanding to know what people have in their pants!

And even medical professionals acknowledge that genitals aren't a fool-proof indicator of physical sex, let alone gender. Around 1.7% of the population are intersex via a variety of traits, some of which often go undiscovered unless the person just happens to have medical treatment for something else that reveals it (ie, requiring endocrinology).

15 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

When their mind doesn't match their body is where the term "trans sexual" comes from

That term is outdated and even then, it doesn't mean what you say it does. It was used to specifically to refer to people who'd undergone surgery to match their body to their gender identity. Not every trans person chooses to do this.

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2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

You are looking to rewrite one of the fundamental assumptions of existence. The sky is blue, water is wet, don't look at the sun, men are men and women are women. That's the status quo, and you are looking to change the status quo. Don't forget that.

This, and your use of statistics, really miss the point I made. It doesn't matter how many non-trans people have an opinion on the existence of trans people, we exist anyway, and always have done. We have always been part of the status quo.

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59 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

male, female, cis, trans, thats all there is.

Its not my fault if you can't accept simple facts of nature.

You have been shown that there is more, and that nature's facts are far from simple.

50 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

drop their pants and take a look.

if they identify with whats down there, they are cis,  if they don't, they are trans.

What if you can't figure out whether what's down there is male or female? This happens with newborns sporting ambiguous genitalia, who sometimes undergo surgery to make the "mess" they present look more to the surgeon like his/her interpretation of male/female.

I could argue that you are free to ignore the facts of nature, but I have reason to believe that's not entirely true.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 minute ago, LexxiXhan said:

This, and your use of statistics, really miss the point I made. It doesn't matter how many non-trans people have an opinion on the existence of trans people, we exist anyway, and always have done. We have always been part of the status quo.

And you completely missed the point of my post. I wasn't tackling the point you made, I was demonstrating that your method of delivery was ultimately counter-productive. 

I'm fully aware that you've always been part of the status quo. I'm also aware that the status quo has rendered you invisible, and therefore (according to the assumptions of most people) effectively not there at all.

I used the example of "the sky is blue" to illustrate this point:

7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Exactly. I'm glad someone else picked up on this (although I didn't know every single example, so thanks for the interesting read!). Homer actually described the sky has being bronze-like, it was the sea (and sheep, for some reason) that he called wine-dark. Don't get me started on his perception of green.

See, if you were to stop a random person in the street and ask them what colour the sky was, the vast majority would say blue. If you told them that they were wrong, that it is not and has never been blue, but is instead violet, they'd call you insane. And yet you would not be wrong. "The sky is blue" is a reasonable assumption to make based on the 'evidence' of your senses, yet it is not the whole truth. Likewise, "there are only two genders, and that gender is fixed at birth" is a reasonable assumption to make, yet it is still an incorrect assumption.

And dismantling reasonable assumptions takes time and patience, and the use of reason and research. What has never and will never work is browbeating people into submission. 

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