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57 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Love, would you provide quotes from this thread that smell like "blaming the victim" to you? It sounds like I'm working against myself here, and I'd like to understand where that's happening.

I’m responding to Bitsy’s long post where she referenced the OP’s profile contents.

9 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Now before you protest that these things didn't just happen on sex sims, think about the way you'd structured your profile information. The trans side was literally surrounded by things to do with sexual RP. The way you structured it made trans secondary and subservient to the search for sex. You carried that environment around with you everywhere you went. The horndogs would see you as a likely prospect and do whatever they do. Their context.

It doesn’t matter what’s in the OP’s profile. If she/they feel objectified, I believe them.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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40 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

There's a difference between victim blaming and point out a lack of common sense. 

"You were wearing lipstick, therefore you were asking for it you hussy" - victim blaming

"You left the doors and windows of your house unlocked and went for a week away? Of course your house got robbed, you moron" - common sense (or a lack of)

In this particular case, I think having a massive multi-line advert for their services as a sexual slave/submissive filling your profile means you don't then get to complain when people IM you as a potential master/mistress/dominant. In fact, the specific auction house strongly recommends a potential bidder get to know a potential slave in advance. We're not talking about a vanilla dating board, we're talking about a slave auction, dehumanising objectification is not only common accepted, but expected by the vast majority of people that voluntarily put themselves up for auction.

And that's without mentioning the fact that he also advertises his escort rates, citing real life submissive experience as a key selling part. And once again, that was 100% voluntary, he chose to offer himself out as a sexual submissive on his profile.

Honestly, while as a general principle you're not wrong, in this particular instance I can't see how you could call his victim blaming. If I walked around wearing a t-shirt that said "blowjobs $20" across my front, and then a bunch of guys asked me for a *****, that's not harassment. At all. That's just potential customers. If I don't want men to expect oral sex, I wear a different t-shirt. That's just common sense.

And this is precisely what the OP has done. Except in a profile rather than on a t-shirt.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm talking about sexual objectification only, same as everyone else. Malicious abuse is a totally different beast altogether, but that's not what anyone here has been referring to when mentioning OP's profile.

*shrug*

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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, since Maddy weighed in..

I personally feel like analyzing the OP’s profile then responding as a few have, smells a lot like “blaming the victim”. Are not Trans people allowed to be sexual beings? 

Just because someone has a sexual profile, doesn’t give everyone permission to objectify them. 

Please..

We review OP profiles here all the time and sometimes correlate what we see there with what they post here.  You've never before mentioned that we were "blaming the victim" because of that.

I think the difference here is that this is a more emotional issue for you.

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25 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It doesn’t matter what’s in the OP’s profile. If she/they feel objectified, I believe them.

Something in the OP's profile does matter, Love, and I'm going to make a gentle correction here: the OP is a man and requests he/him pronouns.

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2 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Something in the OP's profile does matter, Love, and I'm going to make a gentle correction here: the OP is a man and requests he/him pronouns.

Thanks!

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9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You've never before mentioned that we were "blaming the victim" because of that.

 I think the difference here is that this is a more emotional issue for you.

True! Trans people are victimized, killed, murdered so much more than the rest of us LGBQ+ letters, that YES. I am emotional about it.

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Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

True! Trans people are victimized, killed, murdered so much more than the rest of us LGBQ+ letters, that YES. I am emotional about it.

But that does not automatically buy them a pass to say anything they wish and make whatever accusations they want.  All I'm saying is that the OP's profile is allowed to be scrutinized for ambiguous or contradictory statements as much as anyone else.   I'm pretty sure that is all anyone ever noted regarding the OP's profile.

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Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

But that does not automatically buy them a pass to say anything they wish and make whatever accusations they want.  All I'm saying is that the OP's profile is allowed to be scrutinized for ambiguous or contradictory statements as much as anyone else.   I'm pretty sure that is all anyone ever noted regarding the OP's profile.

Omg if I could communicate directly to you what my experience is..but srsly, I dun care what’s in anyone’s profile. It may reflect how they felt in a moment, and not how they mean to present themselves on an ongoing basis. Is that really so hard to grasp?

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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, since Maddy weighed in..

I personally feel like analyzing the OP’s profile then responding as a few have, smells a lot like “blaming the victim”. Are not Trans people allowed to be sexual beings? 

Just because someone has a sexual profile, doesn’t give everyone permission to objectify them. 

Please..

You are of course right that Trans people are allowed to be sexual beings and that having a sexual profiles does not excuse any vulgar and rude remarks directed at them.

But let me throw in my two cents.

The issue with heavly sexual toned profiles isn't a trans exlcusive one or just happening because the OP is trans. I can assure you, that almost everyone with such a profile will recieve their fair share of sexual objectivication (of course with individually changeable degree and content). Why is that? Well, its easy to forget that a large group of users uses Second Life mainly for sexual purposes. And thats going to be their dominant focus when they stroll around in SL. They will see everyone through that lense and it will shape their expectations. To them a sexual profile will suggest that the other person is also here in SL for the very same reason and that will provoke more direct, vulgar IMs in return. For them, there probably isn't a line drawn between the trans identity and all the kink stuff, especially since in SL its not often clear what is a real representation and what is fantasy. They are just here to fullfill a sexual fanatsy. They don't waste a single thought that they might hurt feelings.

Of course this doesn't excuse rude behavior and I don't think anyone would think that. I think the thread about most hated lines is a good example, as its full of examples of cheap sexual behavior and yet nobody would say its the posters fault for creating an attractive female avatar (or something).

It is not too far fetched that the sexual profile of the OP contributes a lot to the harassment, more than just the mention of being trans does. It could be an effective messurement to rewrite this "first introduction" into a more neutral one, that fits in every situation and putting the sexual part to a pick. That may reduce the risk of being seen as "I'm all about fetish!". I think people here would give the same advice to everyone struggeling with that situation. I tweaked my own profile over the years, whenever I felt like I was giving the wrong impression or I saw a solution to avoid certain conversations. The important difference to the traditional victim blameing is also, that nobody implied that the OP deserved all of this.

To pick a methaphor: The conversation wasn't in the ballpark of "don't dress like a s..., if you don't want to be raped", but more of the "you may meet less creepy guys, if you don't take that bus at night. Here is an alternative route."

Of course in a perfect world we would all be excellent persons to each other and use a lot more empathy for even the most anonym stranger on the internte, but... I rather not hold my breath for that.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I dun care what’s in anyone’s profile. It may reflect how they felt in a moment, and not how they mean to present themselves on an ongoing basis. Is that really so hard to grasp?

I think you have it backwards, Love... and so it really is hard for me to grasp.

A line in public chat, or a post in an ongoing forum discussion, might reflect how someone feels in the moment. A personal profile is intended and should be widely understood to be exactly what it says, a profile, a persistent introduction to the person who wrote it. An SL profile is like a business card, a CV or resume, or the profile on a dating site. It is sometimes the first, or even only introduction you get before swiping left or right (if I'm using that analogy correctly, SL is the only dating site I've ever used ;-).

There are people who aren't aware of profiles, don't understand their purpose, don't read them, and/or lack sufficient self awareness to understand how they might be perceived by others. Lack of self awareness shows up everywhere, not just in profiles. I see evidence of this here all the time, including in myself. It's not specific to gender, race, level of education or anything else I've been able to gauge about people. When I perceive people getting in their own way, I sometimes point it out. I've yet to find a way to do that without some risk of discomfort. I've certainly been on the receiving end of intended constructive criticism and I hope I've listened well enough to take something positive away from it.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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I'll add a piece of information here.

 

I have a SL daughter, she's a grown up IRL, in SL she role plays a 15 year old. She has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SEXUAL on her profile. On contrary, she explicitly says she doesn't do any adult related activities because she portrays a minor when she's online.

Almost daily she reports me random strangers saying nasty things to her and she most commonly spends her online time on PG or children oriented places. Since I didn't ask her permission I won't expose her, but here are screenshots of her about and picks:
4iQL8tE.pngGXv05oZ.pngIWGlTls.pngpBHzzzt.png7ktm2tG.png

Why does she constantly gets objectified and harassed with that profile? How is it different from OPs profile?

 

That's all I have to say.

Edited by Sylvannas Zulaman
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The "don't take the bus at night" is still victim blaming.. a well intentioned form but a form nonetheless. Some folks how no choice -but- to take the bus regardless of time. and in the actual context. in order to get the kind of interaction we like on second life. we got make our interest clear. Regardless of if the person is Cis or Trans, Black, White, etc. Nobody deserves harassment. Shouldn't we be teaching people not to harass or decry them. instead of going. "you know if your profile wasn't so X…" Or that we should just expect it.

Dragon has excitability and repeatedly said that the harassment was specifically because of his status as a trans man. he's given examples. No doubt even if he did alter his profile the harassment would still remain unless he just lies about himself. which he shouldn't have to do. Nobody should have to hide a key part of themselves in order to avoid threats or harassment. Am I making sense right now?

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I am close to the trans community. One thing I have noticed over the years is trans clubs, areas , beaches, etc, generally turn into a place for adult activities or they dont survive here. Its very unfortunate, but that does contribute to the problem. Other things I have noticed (not sure what word i can use here, so I'll adjust it some) Shema** = sex  Sissy= sex, Trans, not so much. But search Transgender and you will get far fewer hits (less than one page) than you will the other key words. I do enjoy the company of people that happen to be trans but have no desire to have sex with them. 

If i find a place that is trans friendly that is not focused on sex, it could be a nice place to hang out and chat.

 

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42 minutes ago, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

I'll add a piece of information here.

 

I have a SL daughter, she's a grown up IRL, in SL she role plays a 15 year old. She has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SEXUAL on her profile. On contrary, she explicitly says she doesn't do any adult related activities because she portrays a minor when she's online.

Almost daily she reports me random strangers saying nasty things to her and she most commonly spends her online time on PG or children oriented places. Since I didn't ask her permission I won't expose her, but here are screenshots of her about and picks:
4iQL8tE.pngGXv05oZ.pngIWGlTls.pngpBHzzzt.png7ktm2tG.png

Why does she constantly gets objectified and harassed with that profile? How is it different from OPs profile?

 

That's all I have to say.

Okay, I'll take a stab at analysis. Does your daughter have other adult friends playing juvenile girls? Do they get a similar amount of harassment? If so, could the RP age be the issue? If not, what's different about each role-player's approach and/or profile?

From her profile:

"Warning: please read and understand."
"I am not that kind of girl. Duh..." 

I've seen this hint of condescension backfire before.

"If you mess with me, you mess with them."
My own SL experience is anecdotal, so take me with a grain of salt. I've found this attitude correlates to high levels of drama (my ex-partner was a prime example). More than once, when explaining this particular observation, I have been accused of harassment. And that, of course, only cements my opinion. Rather than become what they're presuming, I walk away.

In SL, I would probably not approach anyone with the profile you've shown. That doesn't mean I don't have friends who might show such attitude in their profiles, maybe I do. I probably came to like them in some other way.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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10 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Okay, I'll take a stab at analysis. Does your daughter have other adult friends playing juvenile girls? Do they get a similar amount of harassment? If so, could the RP age be the issue? If not, what's different about each role-player's approach and/or profile?

From her profile:

"Warning: please read and understand."
"I am not that kind of girl. Duh..." 

I've seen this hint of condescension backfire before.

"If you mess with me, you mess with them."
My own SL experience is anecdotal, so take me with a grain of salt. I've found this attitude correlates to high levels of drama (my ex-partner was a prime example). More than once, when explaining this particular observation, I have been accused of harassment. And that, of course, only cements my opinion. Rather than become what they're presuming, I walk away.

In SL, I would probably not approach anyone with the profile you've shown. That doesn't mean I don't have friends who might show such attitude in their profiles, maybe I do. I probably came to like them in some other way.

She's been my daughter for a year now, never had any kind of drama related issue with her. 

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4 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

The issue with heavly sexual toned profiles isn't a trans exlcusive one or just happening because the OP is trans. I can assure you, that almost everyone with such a profile will recieve their fair share of sexual objectivication (of course with individually changeable degree and content). Why is that? Well, its easy to forget that a large group of users uses Second Life mainly for sexual purposes. And thats going to be their dominant focus when they stroll around in SL. They will see everyone through that lense and it will shape their expectations. To them a sexual profile will suggest that the other person is also here in SL for the very same reason and that will provoke more direct, vulgar IMs in return. For them, there probably isn't a line drawn between the trans identity and all the kink stuff, especially since in SL its not often clear what is a real representation and what is fantasy. They are just here to fullfill a sexual fanatsy. They don't waste a single thought that they might hurt feelings.

Just to follow up on this; most of my pics get taken on adult sims, as most involve some degree of nudity. While my profile does include a flickr link, it's PG unless you're signed in to flickr, and there's not really anything else adult in my profile. Okay some of the photos for picks I used include some non-explicit nudity, but it's not that bad. Certainly nothing that indicates that I'm looking for a sexual encounter. But for some, my mere presence on a sim with that little red A rating is enough to turn me from a person into a piece of meat. So yeah, I've lost count of the times I've been IM'd by someone that sees me as nothing more than a walking pair of T&A.

I've shared a few examples of the funny or cringey terrible lines in that thread Syo mentioned, but not the actual abuse. Not the stuff that reeks of pure vitriol. Most of it is misogynistic, but these types will use whatever words they can to hurt me or demean me, so it can vary quite a lot. Working with a female model or recently published pics with a female model? I get homophobic abuse. The same, but with a male model? Heterophobic abuse. I've received anti-white racist abuse for existing, and other forms of racist abuse for working with a non-white model. And yes, I've been on the receiving end of some transphobic bile because I modelled for a non-binary photographer.

Who I actually am doesn't seem to matter to these people. To them, I deserve objectification for the crime of being on an adult sim, and I deserve abuse for the crime of not spreading my legs the moment my IM window blinks. The specific form of that abuse seems not to matter, it's just flavouring, they'll pick whichever method they think will hurt me the best, or whichever line they think fits the sexual power roleplay they're offering. 

Here's the thing though - if I'm not on adult/sex sims, that harassment mostly dries up. Not completely, this isn't a perfect world, but it's a massive dropoff in instances. I rarely get this at shopping events, or at Moderate/General sims. There's two things I take away from this:

  • The actual abuse is absolutely 100% unacceptable, regardless of where I am or what I have in my profile. If I say no, the answer is no. No one gets to change my mind for me, and no one has any right to take their frustration about that out on me, or anyone else. The OP is not at fault for any of this kind of abuse, at all - and I don't think anyone is saying he is.
  • I can't really complain about the objectification. I'm on a sex sim, the main purpose of which is for sexual roleplay. As much as I'd love to be left in silence, by entering that sim I consent to being asked about sexual roleplay. And that's almost always done in character. To use a cliched example, if a muscle-bound 'hood rat' black avatar asks me to "back that white ass up so I can spank it", that's not really racist abuse. It's an invitation to a sexual roleplay with a racial element. Don't get me wrong, I don't really want to hear that nonsense; but my presence on that sim is effectively consent to being offered that kind of experience. If I decline, and they push further or rage at me, then that's when it starts to become unacceptable.

OP's slave auction advert gives the same kind of consent. The rules of the auction involve a bidder IMing and getting to know the auctionee in advance, to check for compatibility. That means that IM will be 'in character', as the dominant of a potential D/s relationship - and that will usually mean objectification and dehumanising fetishisation. Advertising rates as a submissive escort gives consent to similar types of advances. So yes, I do think it is fair to blame the OP's profile - for this kind of advance.

And of course, it is unfair to blame him for the actual abuse, the people that cannot take no for an answer, or the unjustified bile. Someone telling him to kill himself because he is trans? 100% unacceptable, and OP shares none of the blame for that. That needs an AR, with that person removed from SL. I've personally had one delightful gentleman vow to track me down and violate me until I learned not to deny him what he wanted. That wasn't acceptable either, and no amount of naughty flickr pictures warranted such a thing. His offer of hopping through some poses at breakneck speed while he types variations of "aaahhh" with one hand (if I had to guess) is however totally justified - I was on a BDSM-themed island at the time, posing on a bed.

I hope I've made the distinction clear. It's very easy to lump them both together and either say the OP is at fault for all or at fault for none - and the truth is more nuanced than that. At any rate, the OP listened, and moved the slave auction advert to his picks. 

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2 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I need to stop essay-posting.

Sometimes it takes a lot of words to fully explain something.

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11 minutes ago, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

She's been my daughter for a year now, never had any kind of drama related issue with her. 

She's in your family.

I was referring to drama, which would include harassment, both perceived and real, from others. To put a finer point on this, my own personal experience is that, with profiles like the one you've provided, their perception of harassment does not match mine. As I've said, simply explaining my perception of such profiles has earned me accusations of harassment.

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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I’m responding to Bitsy’s long post where she referenced the OP’s profile contents.

It doesn’t matter what’s in the OP’s profile. If she/they feel objectified, I believe them.

"Blame the victim" is what you took from my post? So much for understanding me. :(

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24 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

She's in your family.

I was referring to drama, which would include harassment, both perceived and real, from others. To put a finer point on this, my own personal experience is that, with profiles like the one you've provided, their perception of harassment does not match mine. As I've said, simply explaining my perception of such profiles has earned me accusations of harassment.

It's not a wrong point of view but she always show me what they told her and I do agree that those things are not to be said to a teenage.

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12 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

OK. Are you listening then?

I will do this one more time and if you colour my words with your own assumptions and emotions I will tell you you are wrong and I will be done with this. OK?

It's not fair or right, but there is more than a little crap around sex and the search for sex in SL. Some of what you've experienced may be more about that and less about you're being trans. Some of it may be routine objectification of women (or those presenting as female/perceived to be female) by blokes looking to get their rocks off and saying whatever they think will get them there.

There's also some weirdness in the BDSM scene and wannabe Doms who are motivated by misogyny and anger rather than kink.

There's also some weirdness around homophobia and fear of catching the gays from bumping pose balls with a RL male.

There are people who glance at a profile and colour in whatever it says with their objectifying need to get off.

Spend enough time on sexually-orientated sims and you'll encounter at least some of that. Heck, one of my strangest experiences was on a disability sim where I'd gone to see what sort of support they offered. A random creep hit on me and was a right arse when I politely explained that I was ill and tired and really not up for it. My context, disability. The sim's context, disability. His context, me want female now.

Now before you protest that these things didn't just happen on sex sims, think about the way you'd structured your profile information. The trans side was literally surrounded by things to do with sexual RP. The way you structured it made trans secondary and subservient to the search for sex. You carried that environment around with you everywhere you went. The horndogs would see you as a likely prospect and do whatever they do. Their context.

Throughout this thread you've read your own context into pretty much everything everyone else has said. If someone wants you to teach, great, you're in your element, you're the expert, you're in charge. For those of us who thought to share a different perspective, it's been aggressive dismissal of what we've said. Your context, your emotions and the rest of us are wrong unless we agree with you and validate your experience.

Are you willing to listen to advice from other perspectives?

If you do the same thing with your interactions in SL, you're going to have a rough time of it and it will be flavoured by whatever identities you're presenting, even if it was cis-het vanilla. Learn to see what's probably about trans and what's more likely to be the f-ed up weirdnesses present in the meat markets.

You are absolutely right in so much of what you said. 

I am not a woman, have never been one and will never truly understand what it is like to be one, but I was socialized as one and read as one for my whole life and I can honestly say (some) cis male entitlement to what they perceive as an object of their interest is not determined by what the person is wearing or what they have in their profile. If I learned anything from being on Second Life or on dating apps, it's that these people almost never read profiles - they see an attractive person, specially a woman or someone who is read as one, and they feel entitled to that person's body. 

It's frustrating, though I deal with it far more on my female avatars than I do on my male ones. That's the world for you, misogyny is just so wonderful. (sarcasm, people. Don't take it out of context.)

All that aside, trans people are often ignored and silenced, and it felt like a lot of the people responding just wanted to shut us up - to invalidate our existence and experience. Regardless of where I hang out or what I want, I should receive the most basic of human decency - it is not too much to ask.

And wanting to create a group for trans people, where we can... share our experiences with people who are going through similar things, with people who would listen and support us, is all I wanted. I had plans, to prepare NC to send to people who are confused or don't understand gender and sexuality. I had plans, to put a list of incredible resources together - there are many on youtube - and expose them to those. But I also had plans to create a community, a place for trans people to come and hangout and talk, and for allies or those who wish to learn to join in and listen. 

Maybe one day, we'd do talks and discussions. But we need to start somewhere. 

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13 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

All that aside, trans people are often ignored and silenced, and it felt like a lot of the people responding just wanted to shut us up - to invalidate our existence and experience.

 

I didn't see anyone trying to "invalidate your existence and experience" ... Your desire to start a group to give others in your community support is very noble, but you're preaching to the choir. The people that are going to be mean, don't care about who you are or what being trans is all about. The ones that want to learn more about your community (the people in this thread) are the ones supporting you in the way they can.

34 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

Regardless of where I hang out or what I want, I should receive the most basic of human decency - it is not too much to ask. 

That is all just wishful thinking. Of course, that is what you should expect, but that isn't always reality.

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