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1 minute ago, Ethan Paslong said:

with american amendment, accusations of transphobic, and political preferences taking over the thread... time out, fun over...

I will quote (badly) someone who recently suggested I go where the lols are!

 

DA36E912-103A-4F26-B9C8-A106F2D416B2.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

there's a certain forum regular who makes out that pretty much everything is, no matter how inapplicable it might be. over and over and over again. it's her game and nothing to do with trans matters.

Ahh That explains it. Thank you. I struggle with tone sometimes. So truly, Thanks for the clarification. 

Quote

with american amendment, accusations of transphobic, and political preferences taking over the thread... time out, fun over...

Well a step back to cool down will work wonders. I think it's important  to address unintentional transphobia. Doesn't necessarily  make someone a bad person. just means they're  unaware of how something came out.

 

While the talk of the amercian adments and poltics is.. related.. it is a bit  off topic..

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1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

and yet im pretty sure the vast majority of people with gender identity issues are either XX or XY

As the vast majority of people are either XX or XY, the vast majority of expressions of ambiguous genitalia occur in either XX or XY. XX or XY is the not the sole biological determinant of the physical expression of gender, nor is it the sole biological determinant of self perception.

In any case, the rarity of a thing isn't a good argument for the suppression of it.

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4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

As the vast majority of people are either XX or XY, the vast majority of expressions of ambiguous genitalia occur in either XX or XY. XX or XY is the not the sole biological determinant of the physical expression of gender, nor is it the sole biological determinant of self perception.

In any case, the rarity of a thing isn't a good argument for the suppression of it.

And most babies with ambiguous genitalia are “corrected” soon after birth..doctor advice or parent choice, no letting the kid grow up to decide.

 

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2 hours ago, AylinVali said:

While the talk of the amercian adments and poltics is.. related.. it is a bit  off topic..

You will find that we often get a bit off-topic, then wander back on. 

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12 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Obviously I don't know for certain... but the whole thing gives off this really bait-like vibe. Not sure if it's the buzzword bingo, the stolen RL pic, the combative writing style, the complaints about fetishisation with a profile dedicated to sexual slavery, or the polarization of every reply here into "100% supportive" or "personal attack" categories. Something feels off.

I might be wrong of course. If I am, then I'm sorry. But if I'm right (and I think I am), include me in the reddit/4chan screencap?

Hi, I did not steal the picture in my profile - it's a picture of a model and youtuber I adore, and I have permission to use it. Being into BDSM does not mean I would like to be fetishized, it doesn't mean I want to be treated like nothing more than an object for sexual gratification, nor does it mean I support the fetishization of marginalized people. It means I enjoy consensual kink and there's nothing wrong with that. Fetishization is harmful, and it has an impact not just on our psyche but in our life and livelihood. Trans people, namely trans women of color, are brutalized and murdered everyday because of this - because they're always portrayed as an object of sexual gratification, one that must be kept hidden, or as the butt of jokes. 

 

11 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

That's part of it, yeah. And I know it's just searchbait tagging; it's still annoying, especially given how many of the tags have nothing to do with the trans community at all. The idea that the LGBTQ+ community is a homogenous, monolithic organisation with no variation of opinion or attitude is both total garbage and deeply offensive, but it's a common mistake made by those people (usually alt-right agitators) attempting to parody specific parts of either spectrum.

A single red flag doesn't make this confirmed bait, but it does suggest that it's a realistic possibility. I'd like to think that the OP is just misinformed and too used to addressing an echo chamber.

For what it's worth, this thread being genuine or not doesn't change my supportive stance on trans issues one inch.

Trans people are part of the LGBT community and can fall anywhere within these letters, and I wanted to reach as many people as I could and be inclusive. 

As for your next point, I was merely posting about my experience and the experiences of the trans people I know and/or have spoken to. You don't have my experience and that's okay - that's wonderful, actually, I wouldn't wish this hate on anyone - but that doesn't mean our experiences aren't true. 

Please, listen to what being said before jumping to the worst possible conclusion. Nothing in my original post was an attack on anyone except those who perpetuate harmful and hateful ideas and attack us for existing. Getting angry at us for voicing our (less than pleasant) experiences is harmful, it silences our voice - which have been silenced for too long - and it's no different than getting mad at someone for saying 'I was kicked in the leg by a person' - if you didn't do the kicking, you're not the issue.

Please, stop misconstruing everything I am saying. Stop using it to dismiss the actual issue we need to work on. 

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5 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

Please, listen to what being said before jumping to the worst possible conclusion.  

Please, stop misconstruing everything I am saying. 

Saying this in the nicest way I know how -- I kindly suggest that you might benefit from taking your own advice in regards to most of the postings in this thread. 

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12 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

For what it's worth, OfDragonFire, it really does seem to me that your other experiences are colouring how you've read and reacted to Maddy and Lindal's contributions. When you say that you've been 'nothing but calm' and I look at see that in context of your surrounding words, I wonder if it's not a cold calm fury. You come across as quite aggressive and indeed it does look like you're quick to make something a fight.

I don't see anyone else here trying to make it a fight. I see people asking questions, giving their opinons and also a few pointing out additional factors which may well influence how others react to you and offering some reasons why, like the general weirdness of meet/meat markets.

The observations about your profile are that it's pretty much all about sexual role play. That alone will increase the amount of fetishisation directed your way. When you do mention other things, it's structured in a way which makes it subservient to the RP (and perhaps part of it). If it was written differently and prioritised other sides of who you are, it's very likely that the amount of fetishisation directed your way would decrease or at least be buffered by more positive experiences.

I understand that being harmful might not have been their intent, but intent doesn't always translate to impact - least of all when it comes to topics surrounding people who are already marginalized and oppressed. When I mentioned fetishization, I mentioned it is almost always directed to trans women. In the times where I personally was fetishized by someone on Second Life, it was because they thought I was a trans woman. And I can assure you, it has nothing to do with what I like to write or what I have in my profile - it happens everywhere, in the real world and in every corner of the internet.  

What I receive in response to unpleasant people realizing I am a trans man is quite the opposite, really - it is blatant disgust. 

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4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Saying this in the nicest way I know how -- I kindly suggest that you might benefit from taking your own advice in regards to most of the postings in this thread. 

You are absolutely right, I did allow my frustration to seep into my words. Could have chosen different words or found a different way to explain why what is being said is harmful. But that said, as someone who belongs to few too many marginalized communities, we are expected to keep a cool head when people are being less than pleasant, to take it all without word and be there to educate them - even when they don't want to learn or listen. 

It is exhausting, we are humans too, but we are expected to act like... Siri, pretty much. Give out information and not react or tell people when what they said or did is improper, impolite or harmful.

We shouldn't have to explain ourselves, our existence. We shouldn't to take all this hate and misinformation. Or be dismissed because we didn't sound polite enough.

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Looks like the only thing I've learned from this thread is what "cis" means, and I had to google it. Have fun everyone, I'm out.

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9 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So what?

People opposed to transgender rights say that it's because that's "not what God/nature intended", which is two hard edged groups of people; one male and one female. If you look at the actual biology, which logically would be exactly what "God/nature intended," it simply isn't that clear cut. Everyone with an undamaged human genome has all the necessary genes to have a uterus, breasts that give milk, a baritone voice, a body part that will probably be asterisked out if I give its formal name, etc. Given that's the case the argument from nature is in serious trouble.

Well, the genes might be there but it's the coming together (if you'll pardon the expression) of male and female genital organs that naturally usually results in offspring.  Surely that is inherent in the words 'gender' and 'genital'.  I'm not trying to insult anyone whose bodies were formed unusually, but I do find it confusing when words which arose from a specific observed function (generation of more people) are used to cover wider conditions.  I do feel the vocabulary is insufficient.

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8 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

I understand that being harmful might not have been their intent, but intent doesn't always translate to impact - least of all when it comes to topics surrounding people who are already marginalized and oppressed. When I mentioned fetishization, I mentioned it is almost always directed to trans women. In the times where I personally was fetishized by someone on Second Life, it was because they thought I was a trans woman. And I can assure you, it has nothing to do with what I like to write or what I have in my profile - it happens everywhere, in the real world and in every corner of the internet.  

What I receive in response to unpleasant people realizing I am a trans man is quite the opposite, really - it is blatant disgust. 

You've misunderstood me. Are you willing to listen?

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7 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Well, the genes might be there but it's the coming together (if you'll pardon the expression) of male and female genital organs that naturally usually results in offspring.  Surely that is inherent in the words 'gender' and 'genital'.  I'm not trying to insult anyone whose bodies were formed unusually, but I do find it confusing when words which arose from a specific observed function (generation of more people) are used to cover wider conditions.  I do feel the vocabulary is insufficient.

We gots more words if needed!

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7 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Well, the genes might be there but it's the coming together (if you'll pardon the expression) of male and female genital organs that naturally usually results in offspring.  Surely that is inherent in the words 'gender' and 'genital'.  I'm not trying to insult anyone whose bodies were formed unusually, but I do find it confusing when words which arose from a specific observed function (generation of more people) are used to cover wider conditions.  I do feel the vocabulary is insufficient.

No, it doesn't. It's the coming together of an egg cell and a sperm cell that results in an offspring.

"Gender" and "genital" are also completely separate words.

"Gender" simply means "type" and is related to words like "genus" and "genre" - in fact "genre" is the word French speakers use when an English speaker would say "gender." It was originally used to refer to parts of speech in languages that have "masculine" and "feminine" words (which don't necessarily have anything to do with the biological sex of what is being referred to.)

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

"Genital" has to do with "creation" and has the same linguistic background as "genesis" and "generate."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Genital

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21 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

No, it doesn't. It's the coming together of an egg cell and a sperm cell that results in an offspring.

"Gender" and "genital" are also completely separate words.

"Gender" simply means "type" and is related to words like "genus" and "genre" - in fact "genre" is the word French speakers use when an English speaker would say "gender." It was originally used to refer to parts of speech in languages that have "masculine" and "feminine" words (which don't necessarily have anything to do with the biological sex of what is being referred to.)

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

"Genital" has to do with "creation" and has the same linguistic background as "genesis" and "generate."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Genital

You missed the part in the first linked page where it says the origin of 'gender'' is to give birth or beget.

I was simplifying when I described the meeting of genitals - I'm sorry that wasn't obvious.

Edited by Garnet Psaltery
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7 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

You missed the part in the first linked page where it says the origin of 'gender'' is to give birth or beget.

I was simplifying when I described the meeting of genitals - I'm sorry that wasn't obvious.

You haven't yet enlightened me.

If you have to go back to Proto-Indo-European you're on seriously shaky ground when talking about how words are related.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/*gene-

Let's play a game - give me objective criteria that will divide humanity into exactly two groups, one male and one female. Then I'll give you a specific real-world case that will break that criteria.

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Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

If you have to go back to Proto-Indo-European you're on seriously shaky ground when talking about how words are related.

Let's play a game - give me objective criteria that will divide humanity into exactly two groups, one male and one female. Then I'll give you a specific real-world case that will break that criteria.

If you're going to use a page to back your statement, then don't ignore what's on it to suit you.

I'm not dividing the world into only male and female but neither am I denying that the states of 'male' and 'female' exist.  

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Ok, here goes..

”Gender” in the context of Trans discussions does not only refer to the “biological gender at birth according to genitalia or chromosomes”. There is a condition called “gender dysphoria disorder” in which a person feels, knows, IS internally a different gender than the biological gender they were “assigned at birth”. The “transition” process is where a Trans person assumes this internal gender and expressed it outwardly, with or without hormones and surgery. Society through education and compassion is encouraged and expected to respect the Trans person who assumes this new, different gender. In the US, a Trans person can get the “gender marker” changed on their driver’s license and even birth certificate (in some states) with a letter from their therapist - even without gender reassignment surgery. They are officially the new gender which they previously felt internally to be, and have every right to express that gender outwardly. 

Does any of that help?

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Just now, Garnet Psaltery said:

If you're going to use a page to back your statement, then don't ignore what's on it to suit you.

I'm not dividing the world into only male and female but neither am I denying that the states of 'male' and 'female' exist.  

I added in a reference to all the words that can be related back to *gene- .... Those are all pretty closely related, now aren't they?

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3 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I'm not dividing the world into only male and female but neither am I denying that the states of 'male' and 'female' exist.  

Then what are they?

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Or perhaps no reply was required, despite your question at the end.

If it helps - it helps. If it doesn't - it doesn't.

Some may have already known the proffered information, some may not. Many of the latter may do little more than nod their head, internally say 'Hmm, interesting' and move on.

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2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Or perhaps no reply was required, despite your question at the end.

If it helps - it helps. If it doesn't - it doesn't.

Some may have already known the proffered information, some may not. Many of the latter may do little more than nod their head, internally say 'Hmm, interesting' and move on.

I was shocked earlier in the thread at the lack of knowledge, is reason for some informational posts.

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